Final words Gurus

[Guest guest]

Dear List,

 

This will be my final post on the topic of whether a human Guru is

required, lest I get caught in "the interminable net of vain argumentation."

 

All I will say is this: "personal" experience is the final word on the

matter here. Personal experience supercedes the Vedas, supercedes the

Upanishads, supercedes the Gita, supercedes any words or ideas from any

saints or sages or gurus or anyone else. Anything that actually occurs

here is more real than any ideas of the mind.

 

There has been more shedding of ignorance here in the past ten months than

is commonly seen in ten years. This has occurred without the aid of a

human guru in the traditional sense. "I" cannot explain how or why this

has occurred, except to say that Grace has been kind. It has certainly

been through no doing of my own.

 

If there are any who wish to argue with "one person's" personal experience

on the path, please go ahead and do so... however, I will participate in no

more discussion or argumentation on the subject. I *know* that a Guru in

human form is not required, through experience in the here and now. And a

quote from a list member will now be addressed:

>those who dont want to use this tradition and claim that knowledge can take

>place by experimentation etc. are really the losers.

 

There is no mental knowledge at all involved in Advaita Vedanta, except

perhaps on the most elementary levels. There is nothing to be gained that

is not already eternally Present. There is only ignorance to be lost --

only cleaning away of useless conditioning. The mind is ignorant by

nature, and will think that there is some kind of "knowledge" that dispells

ignorance. But knowledge is simply the useless accumulation of ideas and

facts. The mind is a chattering monkey which knows nothing of truth, but

can only infer based on societal and social (and perhaps biological)

conditioning. Those who never realize this fact have "lost" already.

 

Hari OM,

 

Tim

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

I completely agree with what Kalyanji says in his two posts. There are many

paths or ways to prepare oneself to receive the knowledge. But the knowledge

itself has to be received only thro' a valid means of knowledge which is the

Vedas in this case.

 

Personal experiences cannot be called doubtless knowledge because experience

depends upon the interpretation of the individual who undergoes the

experience. We all experience Subject Object duality in waking and dream and

No Subject-Object duality in deep-sleep. Which is the truth in these

experience or both equally real? Majority of the people take experience of

duality as real. So how can anyone know the truth by just personal

experience? So there is a necessity for a valid means of knowledge to reveal

the truth. Taking the Vedas as valid means of knowledge in this respect is

purely Shraddha or belief until knowledge takes place or to put it correctly

until ignorance is removed.

 

with love and prayers,

 

Jaishankar.

 

"kalyankumar muthurajan" <kalyankumar

advaitin

advaitin

Final words Re: Gurus

Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:27:47 PST

 

Dear Tim,

You have been very lucid in your presentation of your understanding.

You wrote : "There is only ignorance to be lost -- only cleaning away of

useless conditioning. The mind is ignorant by nature, and will think that

there is some kind of "knowledge" that dispells ignorance. But knowledge is

simply the useless accumulation of ideas and facts. The mind is a

chattering monkey which knows nothing of truth, but can only infer based on

societal and social (and perhaps biological) conditioning."

 

I agree. All knowledge that mind gathers and the inferences it makes are

dependent on/product of the societal and social conditioning. This includes

the religious, spiritual, cultural etc., values aswell. There is no final

word in the so-called knowledge we gather from the day-to-day experiences.

This includes even the "'personal' experience being the final word"

mentioned by you. How can we classify any personal experience as a valid

knowledge? Another 'personal experience' of tomorrow will thrash out the

knowledge gained today. Even this 'personal experience' is INTERPRETED by

you only based on the societal and social conditioning of yours. Are we not

absolutely helpless, since all we have is a mental framework which is based

on the upbringing, past experiences, societal and social conditioning etc.,

etc., ? Any experience and interpretations based on the thoughts within

this mental framework will not stand even another experience let alone

questioning! So, if a guru also is going to tell something based on his own

experience or interpretation of his experiences, it is only as valid (if not

less) as one's own. So, a living guru or non-living guru or mountain or

anything is not even a GURU if the knowledge imparted is based on the

sensory, inferential or intuitional data, since the INTERPRETATION of the

DATA is based on the SOCIETAL and SOCIAL CONDITIONING of the INTERPRETER.

The non-validity of the KNOWLEDGE in this sense is beyond doubt. Extending

this non-validity further, we can question the validity of my(impersonal)

conclusion on what I AM. My nature as a physical, emotional, intellectual,

limited entity can be questioned. My own accepting and non-accepting of any

ideas can be questioned. My acceptance of a KNOWLEDGE or non-acceptance of

a KNOWLEDGE can be questioned. But, CAN the EXISTENCE of the QUESTIONER be

QUESTIONED? That is the ONLY EXISTENCE which is beyond QUESTIONING!!! The

KNOWLEDGE of it is beyond our WAYS of KNOWING, like we have already

dismissed all KNOWLEDGES above. The knower cannot objectify and know

himself, and the CONCLUSIONS based on EXPERIENCES are product of ones

SOCIETAL and SOCIAL CONDITIONING.

 

So, we are HELPLESS! Only help offered in our search is SHASTRAS. There is

no choice. Even if we try SHASTRAS (through a GURU teaching the SHASTRAS

and not his own experience) and it does not help us gain what it promises,

we have not LOST anything, since we would not have GAINED anything not

opting for it anyway. But, all those who took to shastras seem to say that

they GAINED and there is nothing wrong TRUSTING them (since we are already

seeking HELP). But, the saving grace is, the KNOWLEDGE being the KNOWLEDGE

OF SELF it cannot be a NON-CONCLUSIVE KNOWLEDGE. Once KNOWN, it cannot be

UN-KNOWN.

 

Gurucharanapankaha

Kalyan