Jaishankar/dream tigers

[Guest guest]

<<Jaishankar:

< So if it is to be taken as a Guru then there would be no

problem and in fact no need for even this list.

 

Dan: I agree there is no "need" for this list. This list is an arising

within "Awareness", as all is. This statement is in no way a diminishment

of the nature of the list, simply pure appreciation of the list in clarity

of Awareness.

 

J: Every body will be born with self-knowledge. But that's not the case.

 

D: I see that it is the case. Although there may be lack of clarity, and

a belief system around separation, inherent self-knowledge is never

absent. For this reason, realization is possible. If self-knowledge

were something to be acquired, it would be relative, something that

might be gained and lost, a limited "something".

 

J: The Self can be called as a Guru

only from the standpoint that it alone reveals and gives existence to all

the mental modifications and to also that mental modification which

destroys the ignorance of the self.

 

D: This is a valid position from which to refer to Self as Guru, from my

perspective.

>J: I don't validate or invalidate others. I am talking of the truth. If

other traditions say the same things as the Vedic tradition then there

is

nothing to say. But if they claim something different like the ultimate

is to go to Heaven and enjoy etc. then I have to disagree.

 

D: You discuss here the realm of doctrinal dispute. My observation is that

doctrinal disputes have resulted, throughout the ages, in bad feelings,

stereotyping of adversaries, even wars. We therefore would benefit from

recognizing that attachment to views leads to conflict, not peace. Truth

that is Peace cannot be found in the realm of doctrinal disputation, in my

opinion. Truth that is Peace is found when all doctrine can be released,

and the presence of One enjoyed by One itself.

>J:

>Truth does'nt tolerate many opinions.

 

D: It might be said that Truth is not a matter of opinion. When there is

my opinion versus your opinion, there is me against you, and where is the

Truth then? Simply obscured, it seems to me.

>J: Truth is one and it has to be enquired into. In the

process we have to disagree with the illogical claims of others.

 

D: Why not simply go directly into Truth and speak from Truth? Then

one doesn't involve oneself in trying to get "others" to see their

flaws, doesn't get in the position of trying to get another to

perceive themself as "illogical." If you succeed in getting me

to feel flawed and illogical, and to see you as right and logical,

does this situation reveal Truth? I see a situation like that

as leading to further tension, and tending to reinforce belief in

dvaita as reality. If you can assist me to see the "rightness" in

my Self, and the "rightness" in your Self, indeed the rightness that

has no wrongness to it -- to me, that is the situation of Truth.

>J: Further I would like to state that everything including Guru, Vedas and

their teaching are only in Dvaita. But like the dream tiger which makes

you wake upto another reality, the Vedic teaching makes you to wake upto

the reality of Advaita. Till then everything is only Dvaita.

 

D: To wake up to Reality then is essential. How is One to awaken? If

a dream tiger arises in my dream, it may or may not be in the form

of Vedic teaching. Is there not a Teaching that can form itself

in many versions of "tiger"? Is this Teaching not presently available?

Is not the seeker itself That which is sought, and is not the dream

itself nothing other than arising from and within the very "body" of

Awareness?

[Guest guest]

"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Jaishankar/dream tigers

Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:33:38 -0500

 

<<Jaishankar:

< So if it is to be taken as a Guru then there would be no

problem and in fact no need for even this list.

 

Dan: I agree there is no "need" for this list. This list is an arising

within "Awareness", as all is. This statement is in no way a diminishment

of the nature of the list, simply pure appreciation of the list in clarity

of Awareness.

 

Jai: I think that you are again mixing up Reality and Vyvahara or day to day

life. The list is indeed useful for an ignorant person and a wise person

need not be told that the list is not needed. So I think one has the

responsibility of not making statements which can confuse and mislead

people, although it might be true from one's own standpoint.

_____________

 

J: If Self is the Guru then Every body will be born with self-knowledge.

But that's not the case.

 

D: I see that it is the case. Although there may be lack of clarity, and

a belief system around separation, inherent self-knowledge is never

absent. For this reason, realization is possible. If self-knowledge were

something to be acquired, it would be relative, something that might be

gained and lost, a limited "something".

 

Jai: I did'nt mean that one does'nt know one's own existence when I said

everyone is not born with Self-knowledge. The Self being Self revealing

everybody knows 'I am' without the need of a means of knowledge. But they

add 'I am so and so' and that 'so and so' is the problem. So its true that

Nobody is born with the knowledge 'I am Brahman' except for Vamadeva etc. So

telling that the 'Self is the Guru' and so there is no need for a Guru etc.

is really misleading people.

___________

 

J: The Self can be called as a Guru only from the standpoint that it alone

reveals and gives existence to all the mental modifications and to also that

mental modification which destroys the ignorance of the self.

 

D: This is a valid position from which to refer to Self as Guru, from my

perspective.

 

Jai: If you accept this then we have to see how the mental modification or

vritti which destroys the ignorance of the Self is born. We cannot claim

that the self acted as a guru and so it was born because the self is

incapable any action. So we have to conclude that the mental modification

was born out of a Pramana Vyapara or the operation of a valid means of

knowledge. In this case that valid means of knowledge is the words of the

Guru, which is nothing but the words of the Vedas.

______________

>J: I don't validate or invalidate others. I am talking of the truth. If

other traditions say the same things as the Vedic tradition then there is

nothing to say. But if they claim something different like the ultimate is

to go to Heaven and enjoy etc. then I have to disagree.

 

D: You discuss here the realm of doctrinal dispute. My observation is that

doctrinal disputes have resulted, throughout the ages, in bad

feelings,stereotyping of adversaries, even wars. We therefore would benefit

from recognizing that attachment to views leads to conflict, not peace.

Truth that is Peace cannot be found in the realm of doctrinal disputation,

in my opinion. Truth that is Peace is found when all doctrine can be

released, and the presence of One enjoyed by One itself.

 

Jai: I am not telling that one should go and argue with all others. But any

idea which is floating around has the potential to create doubts in my mind.

So if I am interested in knowing the truth, I have to examine their

validity. If one cannot see through the claims of others I dont think one

can gain the knowledge of the reality as it is. So this has got nothing to

do with war or peace. It is simple personal enquiry into the truth. I am not

interested in arguing with others or changing them.

>J: Truth is one and it has to be enquired into. In the

process we have to disagree with the illogical claims of others.

 

D: Why not simply go directly into Truth and speak from Truth? Then

one doesn't involve oneself in trying to get "others" to see their

flaws, doesn't get in the position of trying to get another to

perceive themself as "illogical." If you succeed in getting me

to feel flawed and illogical, and to see you as right and logical, does

this situation reveal Truth? I see a situation like that as leading to

further tension, and tending to reinforce belief in dvaita as reality. If

you can assist me to see the "rightness" in

my Self, and the "rightness" in your Self, indeed the rightness that

has no wrongness to it -- to me, that is the situation of Truth.

 

Jai: I have already stated that any idea floating around has the potential

to create doubts in me. So it is essential to see whether any truth is there

in those ideas. Thats why our whole shastra is presented in the form

Purvapaksha and siddhanta. Every acharya in the tradition has shown the

fallacy in the claims of the other philosophers whose views were popular in

their respective times. That does'nt mean those acharyas were creating any

tension. If you want to be 'broadminded' at the cost of truth its your

choice.

_________________________________

>J: Further I would like to state that everything including Guru, Vedas

and their teaching are only in Dvaita. But like the dream tiger which makes

you wake upto another reality, the Vedic teaching makes you to wake upto

the reality of Advaita. Till then everything is only Dvaita.

 

D: To wake up to Reality then is essential. How is One to awaken? If a

dream tiger arises in my dream, it may or may not be in the form

of Vedic teaching. Is there not a Teaching that can form itself

in many versions of "tiger"? Is this Teaching not presently available? Is

not the seeker itself That which is sought, and is not the dream itself

nothing other than arising from and within the very "body" of Awareness?

 

Jai: I think you are stretching the example too far. Since there can be many

things in the dream which can make you wake up, it does'nt mean the same

with Atma-Vidya. There cannot be many versions of atma-vidya because truth

is one.

________________________________