The Capacity to Desire is a Privilege

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

The Capacity to Desire is a privelege which we human beings have. It is a

great privilege indeed. Think of this. Can a cow desire for chinese food or

a video camera or a computer? No. This power

to desire is something to be cherished. Thats why we call it Iccha Shakthi.

It is shakthi, power. Along with this Iccha shakthi Isvara has given us

jnana Shakthi or power to Know and also Kriya Shakthi - the power to act.

These 3 Shakthis are really a manifestation of Isvara and they are not to be

looked down upon. Infact everybody should desire as much as they can. The

maximum one can desire for is the limitless and so it is the greatest of all

the desires.

 

Lord krsna in BG says ' Dharma Aviruddha kamosmi bharatarshabha' which means

'I am the desire which is not in conflict with Dharma.' Isvara is manifest

as desire and that is how this creation is kept going on and on. If there

is no desire the creation will stop. That is why when the Upanishad talks

about creation it says 'Sokamayata' i.e. 'That one desired' and there was

creation. The interesting point here is Krsna says he is the desire which is

not in conflict with dharma. Because if desire conflicts with dharma and

still one wants to go along with one's desire it becomes Greed. Thats when

desire becomes greed. And in Greed there is more of individual - the ego

than Isvara.

 

Further if there is greed then you are lead by your desires and it becomes

binding. Binding in the sense that you think without fulfilling that desire

you cant be happy. Now this is dangerous because with such thinking one can

do lot of adharma for the sake of fulfilling one's desire. A mature person

is one who is alert enough to identify the desires which might lead one

into adharma and not act according to those desires. Such a person manages

his desire and they are not binding on him. But an immature person is

managed by his desires and the desires becomes binding for him.

 

Further if we look at success in terms of fulfilling one's desires then

nobody can be successful in this world. Think of all the desires you had

from your childhood onwards and how many were fulfilled. But if success is

looked at in terms of managing one's desires then anybody can become

successful irrespective of whether one fulfilled one's desires or not.

Infact real success is in knowing that one is completely free from all

desires and it involves a cognitive change.

Desires cannot be vanquished and need not be vanquished until one is alive.

Even a jivanmukta or a jnani continues to have his preferences and desires.

A South Indian jnani may prefer to have

idli and dosa and a North Indian Jnani might prefer roti and dal. But for

him the fulfillment of the desire is not linked to his happiness because he

has already discovered himself to be the limitless.

 

Great jnanis like Sankara and Vyasa could not have written volumes and

volumes unless they had a desire to communicate their knowledge to others.

If all jnanis are characterised as people who don't have desires then they

will all become vegetables. Atleast they should have the desire to

communicate their vision to others. Otherwise this knowledge won't be

available for us today. Even Lord Krishna is known as 'pitambaraha',

meaning 'the one wearing yellow cloth'. He had a preference for yellow

cloth, flute and also a peacock feather as a decoration. This doesn't mean

that He would have felt depressed wihtout these things. In fact nowhere in

the Bhagavad Gita it is said that one should not have desires. Bhagavan

only says 'tayoho vasham na agacchet'. It means 'don't come under the sway

of your likes and dislikes'.

 

The statement 'desire is the root cause of misery' is itself a cause for

misery and doesn't make any sense. It gives only guilt and unnecessary

complexes to people. As long as you are guided by dharma and you are not

bound by your desires, only the sky is the limit for having desires and

ambitions.

 

So desire is a great privelege. Having desires is not a problem for anyone -

jiva or isvara. Only getting bound by desires is a problem. And the only

way of getting out of this bondage is to know that one is already the

limitless and need not fulfill any desire to be happy.

 

How can I understand the statement that I need not fulfill any desire to be

happy? From our day to day experiences. There is a misconception that

happiness is the interlude between the fulfillment of one desire and the

rise of the next desire. Let us analyse this. Sometimes when we fulfill a

desire we do feel happy. But it is not always true. Many times in our

lives we may have fulfilled a long cherished desire only to feel 'why did I

at all fulfill this desire?!' So fulfilling a desire need not always lead

to happiness. Now let us see the other scenario. Assume that you went to

see a circus. There you saw a clown doing a slapstick comedy and started

laughing uncontrolably. At that moment you are happy. But what desire did

you fulfill? Did you pay off your credit card debt, or house mortgage or

got a promotion in your job, etc.? Nothing. You just were yourself at that

moment and felt happy. So to be happy you need not fulfill any desire. And

also, whenever you fulfill your desire you need not be happy. If this is

understood then you can have a certain freedom with respect to desires.

 

with love and prayers,

 

Jaishankar.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Jaishankar Narayanan wrote:

> "Jaishankar Narayanan" <jaishankar_n

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> The Capacity to Desire is a privelege which we human beings have. It is a

> great privilege indeed. Think of this. Can a cow desire for chinese food or

> a video camera or a computer? No. This power

> to desire is something to be cherished. Thats why we call it Iccha Shakthi.

> It is shakthi, power. Along with this Iccha shakthi Isvara has given us

> jnana Shakthi or power to Know and also Kriya Shakthi - the power to act.

> These 3 Shakthis are really a manifestation of Isvara and they are not to be

> looked down upon. Infact everybody should desire as much as they can. The

> maximum one can desire for is the limitless and so it is the greatest of all

> the desires.

>

> Lord krsna in BG says ' Dharma Aviruddha kamosmi bharatarshabha' which means

> 'I am the desire which is not in conflict with Dharma.' Isvara is manifest

> as desire and that is how this creation is kept going on and on. If there

> is no desire the creation will stop. That is why when the Upanishad talks

> about creation it says 'Sokamayata' i.e. 'That one desired' and there was

> creation. The interesting point here is Krsna says he is the desire which is

> not in conflict with dharma. Because if desire conflicts with dharma and

> still one wants to go along with one's desire it becomes Greed. Thats when

> desire becomes greed. And in Greed there is more of individual - the ego

> than Isvara.

>

> Further if there is greed then you are lead by your desires and it becomes

> binding. Binding in the sense that you think without fulfilling that desire

> you cant be happy. Now this is dangerous because with such thinking one can

> do lot of adharma for the sake of fulfilling one's desire. A mature person

> is one who is alert enough to identify the desires which might lead one

> into adharma and not act according to those desires. Such a person manages

> his desire and they are not binding on him. But an immature person is

> managed by his desires and the desires becomes binding for him.

>

> Further if we look at success in terms of fulfilling one's desires then

> nobody can be successful in this world. Think of all the desires you had

> from your childhood onwards and how many were fulfilled. But if success is

> looked at in terms of managing one's desires then anybody can become

> successful irrespective of whether one fulfilled one's desires or not.

> Infact real success is in knowing that one is completely free from all

> desires and it involves a cognitive change.

> Desires cannot be vanquished and need not be vanquished until one is alive.

> Even a jivanmukta or a jnani continues to have his preferences and desires.

> A South Indian jnani may prefer to have

> idli and dosa and a North Indian Jnani might prefer roti and dal. But for

> him the fulfillment of the desire is not linked to his happiness because he

> has already discovered himself to be the limitless.

>

> Great jnanis like Sankara and Vyasa could not have written volumes and

> volumes unless they had a desire to communicate their knowledge to others.

> If all jnanis are characterised as people who don't have desires then they

> will all become vegetables. Atleast they should have the desire to

> communicate their vision to others. Otherwise this knowledge won't be

> available for us today. Even Lord Krishna is known as 'pitambaraha',

> meaning 'the one wearing yellow cloth'. He had a preference for yellow

> cloth, flute and also a peacock feather as a decoration. This doesn't mean

> that He would have felt depressed wihtout these things. In fact nowhere in

> the Bhagavad Gita it is said that one should not have desires. Bhagavan

> only says 'tayoho vasham na agacchet'. It means 'don't come under the sway

> of your likes and dislikes'.

>

> The statement 'desire is the root cause of misery' is itself a cause for

> misery and doesn't make any sense. It gives only guilt and unnecessary

> complexes to people. As long as you are guided by dharma and you are not

> bound by your desires, only the sky is the limit for having desires and

> ambitions.

>

> So desire is a great privelege. Having desires is not a problem for anyone -

> jiva or isvara. Only getting bound by desires is a problem. And the only

> way of getting out of this bondage is to know that one is already the

> limitless and need not fulfill any desire to be happy.

>

> How can I understand the statement that I need not fulfill any desire to be

> happy? From our day to day experiences. There is a misconception that

> happiness is the interlude between the fulfillment of one desire and the

> rise of the next desire. Let us analyse this. Sometimes when we fulfill a

> desire we do feel happy. But it is not always true. Many times in our

> lives we may have fulfilled a long cherished desire only to feel 'why did I

> at all fulfill this desire?!' So fulfilling a desire need not always lead

> to happiness. Now let us see the other scenario. Assume that you went to

> see a circus. There you saw a clown doing a slapstick comedy and started

> laughing uncontrolably. At that moment you are happy. But what desire did

> you fulfill? Did you pay off your credit card debt, or house mortgage or

> got a promotion in your job, etc.? Nothing. You just were yourself at that

> moment and felt happy. So to be happy you need not fulfill any desire. And

> also, whenever you fulfill your desire you need not be happy. If this is

> understood then you can have a certain freedom with respect to desires.

>

> with love and prayers,

>

> Jaishankar.

>

 

 

namaste.

 

I have read shri jaishankar's post on this topic with great

surprise. Surprise is because the concept advocated by shri

jaishankar is against what I think is the proper understanding

of bhagavadgItA and the upanishads. Surprise is particularly more

because shri jaishankar through his many posts has (correctly)

emphasized the importance of the traditional teaching from a guru

in a gurukula setting and of his training in a gurukula setting.

 

I give below many instances from the bhagavadgItA and from the

upanishads where kAmA, the desire is interpreted as evil and

detrimental to the human spiritual growth.

 

1. BG 2.55

 

prajahAti yadA kAmAn.h sarvAn.h pArtha manogatAn.h

AtmanyevAtmanA tuShTaH sthitaprajnastadocyate

 

O Arjuna, when a man puts away all the desires of his mind and

is satisfied in the SELF by the SELF, then he is said to be one

of steady wisdom.

 

2. BG 3.37

 

shrIbhagavAnuvAca:

kAma eSha krodha eSha rajoguNasamudbhavaH

mahAshano mahApApmA viddhy enam iha vairiNam.h

 

The Lord said: It is desire, it is anger born of the quality of

rajas, all-devouring, all-sinful; know this as the enemy here.

 

3. BG 3.38

 

dhUmenA'vriyate vahniH yathA'darsho malena ca

yatho'lbenAvr^to garbhaH tathA tene'dam Avr^tam.h

 

As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, as an embryo

is enveloped by the womb, so is this knowledge obscured by desire.

 

4. BG 3.39

 

Avr^tam jnAnametena jnAnino nitya vairiNA

kAmarupena kaunteya, duShpureNAnalena ca

 

O Arjuna, wisdom is enveloped by this constant enemy of the wise

in the form of insatiable fire of desire.

 

5. BG 3.40

 

indriyANi manobuddhiH asyA'dhiShThAnam ucyate

etair vimohayaty eSha jnAnamAvr^tya dehinam

 

The senses, the mind and the intellect are said to be its (desire's)

seat; through these it deludes the embodied by veiling his wisdom.

 

[if the abode of the enemy is known, it is easy to kill him. So,

Lord KrishNa, like a wise army general, points out to Arjuna the

abode of desire so that he may be able to attack it and kill it

quite readily.]

 

6. BG 16.21

 

trividham.h narakasye'dam.h dvAram.h nAshanamAtmanaH

kAmaH krodhas tathA lobhastasmAd etat trayam.h tyajet.h

 

The gateway of this hell leading to the ruin of the soul is

three-fold; desire, anger, and greed. Therefore, one should

abandon these three [anger and greed arise out of the unfulfilled

and fulfilled desire and are a form of desire only].

 

7. KaTha upanishad II.3.14 and Br^hadAraNyaka upanishad IV.4.7

 

Yadaa sarve pramucyante kaamaa ye'sya hr^di shritaah

atha martyo'mr^to bhavatyatra brahma samashnute

 

When all the desires that dwell in the heart fall away, then

the mortal becomes immortal, and attains Brahman even here.

 

 

I would like shri jaishankar to refute these overwhelming statements

against desire from the bhagavadgItA and the upanishads. I would

further request him to give the basis for his interpretation of desire

with statements from the guru's works, from the shruti, from the

bhagavadgItA and from shri Shankara's works.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

[Guest guest]

Hari Om Gummuluru:

 

All statements that we make are always conditional and sometime we fail to

explain the implied assumptions. On other times, we fail to recognize the

assumptions and expect others to understand what is in our mind. Consequently,

we create communication gaps due to our limitation of conveyiiing everthing

that we really wanted to say.

 

It is my understanding that the statement, "The capacity to Desire is a

privilege which human beings have" contain some underlined assumptions. All

desires are not evil and the desire to conduct unselfish service to the

community is a privilege!

 

It is also possible to argue that self desire is not a privilege and such

desires cutivates attachments. The consequences of selfish desires are

beutifully described in Chapter 2, Verses 62 and 63.

 

Every privilege always comes with added responsibilities and consequently we

are left with less freedom. We may have our rights to desire but we should be

willing to accept the consequences! The consequences will follow whether we

like it or not!

 

For the same reasoning, the statement that "Desire is the root cause of

misery" is not necessarily the root cause of misery. The root cause of all

our misery is ignorance. When we fail to understand the context of that

statement and the implied assumptions, we become miserable. We should blame

ourself for our misery and not that statement.

 

I teach several econometric courses and econometrics describes the

relationship between the variables using quantitative models. The same set of

data and variables can be explained three different models with various

outcomes because each of them contain different underlined assumptions and

definitions. Empirical estimates those models appear different but all of them

can be potentially correct. Unfortunately (fortunately!) no one knows the

TRUE MODEL (true relationship) and each of the model tries to describes using

different subjective preferences. Vedantic Philosophy and Life Experiences

are quite similar and we don't know who is right and who is wrong in most of

the situtaions. This is our limitation and uncertainty is always present and

until we are free from the uncertainty, we can't make hasty conclusions on

other point of views. Our discussions and exchanges are pure explorations and

if whenever we make generalizations, we become fallible!

 

Finally, I am willing admit my limitations (I have no other options!) and

forgive me if I made knowingly or knowingly any appropriate statements without

clearly stating my assumptions.

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

> Ram Chandran <chandran

> Every privilege always comes with added responsibilities and consequently

> we

> are left with less freedom. We may have our rights to desire but we should

> be

> willing to accept the consequences! The consequences will follow whether

> we

> like it or not!

[Madhava Replies:]

This is beautiful. Thank you Ramji.

>

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Ram Chandran wrote:

> Ram Chandran <chandran

>

> Hari Om Gummuluru:

>

> All statements that we make are always conditional and sometime we fail to

> explain the implied assumptions. On other times, we fail to recognize the

> assumptions and expect others to understand what is in our mind. Consequently,

> we create communication gaps due to our limitation of conveyiiing everthing

> that we really wanted to say.

>

 

namaste shri Ram Chandran,

 

You are quite correct in saying that we (the audience) do not really

know what are the underlying assumptions in the original post of this

thread that "... Desire is a privilege...", or even in my response.

 

My response is based on the face value of the post and may be, in that

way, is a bit pointed. My heartfelt regrets on that, in not giving the

benefit of doubt to shri jaishankar.

 

Some good has come out of this: (i) both myself and the list has the

pleasure of seeing that sage advice from you, advice which need to be

continuously kept in mind, particularly in this medium of communication,

(ii) I had the opportunity to brush up on my bhagavadgItA where the

discussion is on the topic of desire.

>

> regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

-----

[Guest guest]

Hari Om Murthygaru:

 

Your enthusiastic and forceful reply to Jaishankar's article gave me the

opportunity and motivation to respond. I wholeheartedly agree with your

observation that that all of us were truly benefitted through these exchanges. I

also got another opportunity to brush up my knowledge on Gita by reading your

post.

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>.

>(ii) I had the opportunity to brush up on my bhagavadgItA where the

>discussion is on the topic of desire.

>> regards,