Guest guest Posted December 30, 1999 Report Share Posted December 30, 1999 Neither the universe nor >the individual are what they seem to be No, that's right. We are all one, "you" are "me" and "I" am "you". It is a shared momentum. >Message: 8 > Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:15:20 -0800 > "R. Viswanathan" <rvis >Psychology and Spirituality > >If we define Spirituality as non materialistic, then it is similar to Psychology. But it is lot more than that. >Psychology formulates a series of patterns (or models) for the non materialistic mind. >However, Spirituality goes beyond the mind. Oh yeah, thanks Vis. Your definitions are much more down to earth than mine. I just saw the blurred edges b/n psychology and spirituality. Got caught up in Freud there. >When the patient totally trusts the Shaman the >patient's "I" is on-hold! This allows natural >energy to flows through the patient and cures >him. Thanks also for that explanation ! I see my knowledge about shamanic healing is very small indeed. >Message: 9 > Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:44:12 -0800 > "R. Viswanathan" <rvis >Meditation experiences >A pot (full or not full) of water makes >sloshing noices as the pot is moved. The "I" >is like the water and it sloshes in our lives >with all kinds of movements (questions). >The 'neti, neti' is the resultant response >noice. >If we pour the water out, the pot gets filled >with the 'invisible' air, automatically . >When there are no more (movements of "I") >questions to know Atma Vichara, the passive >and choiceless witnessing (the "Being") occurs. >The next step occurs without effort! Thanks for that explanation, Vis. I have another question regarding the mind and its relationship with the witness (maybe my terms are not precise enough, I will try and do my best to explain what I mean). I (again the "I" is a bit of a misguiding word to use) feel for the moment that all the different movements of the mind are the direct cause of the I-feeling, not the mind or consciousness itself, that paradoxically, the perceptions and the movements of the mind somehow "magically" give rise to the "I- feeling, either because they occur so close together in order (one thought giving rise to the next) or are so difficult to stop the flow of, or both, that it is very difficult to see that the I-feeling itself is empty and unable to operate on its own. So I was hoping someone out there could say something more about the relationship of the mind and the I-feeling and how to see more of what lies behind the illusory I-feeling. And by what force or possibility does the mind perceptions give rise to the I-feeling. How can they do that ? Best regards, Amanda. (Trying to celebrate New Year's together with the mind chatter ) ) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 1999 Report Share Posted December 30, 1999 At 06:47 PM 12/30/99, winter mute wrote: >I (again the "I" is a bit of a misguiding word >to use) feel for the moment that all the >different movements of the mind are the >direct cause of the I-feeling, not the mind >or consciousness itself, that paradoxically, the >perceptions and the movements of the mind >somehow "magically" give rise to the "I- >feeling, either because they occur so close >together in order (one thought giving rise to >the next) or are so difficult to stop the flow >of, or both, that it is very difficult to >see that the I-feeling itself is empty >and unable to operate on its own. > >So I was hoping someone out there could say >something more about the relationship of the >mind and the I-feeling and how to see more >of what lies behind the illusory I-feeling. >And by what force or possibility does the >mind perceptions give rise to the I-feeling. >How can they do that ? Dear Amanda, There are lots of creation stories accounting for the genesis of the I-thought, or the I-feeling. But let's try to look directly at the experience, setting aside the theories for a moment... Check this out, see if it doesn't conform with your experience. The I-feeling and I-thought come up, say, if someone accuses us wrongly (or rightly!) of doing something harmful. The feeling might be a sense of localization or contraction or burning in the chest, or in the pit of the stomach, or the face, or behind the eyes in the center of the forehead, or wherever. This might correspond, roughly speaking, to "where" we think we are located, if we have such a notion. What about the I-thought? The I-thought is the thought I have of myself. It is a thought whose object is the entity I take myself to be. After the accusation, it is this supposed entity that seemed to be touched or hurt by the accusation. How does this all relate to the mind? By examining our experience, we cannot find a "mind" that is a holder or container or controller of thoughts. All we find is thoughts. We cannot even put our finger on a causal process, whereby one thought causes another thought. What we find is a series or stream of thoughts, one following another. Even if we found what we take to be a cause, it would be just another thought. Same thing for feelings and bodily sensations -- all these appearances or experiences, one simply follows another. So where do the thoughts and feelings and sensations come from, where do they go? Try, and we cannot find any such place or source. If we did seem to find it, like AHAA! It's HERE! Well, that would be another thought or feeling or sensation. There is awareness before and between the experiences, taking note of the coming and going of the experiences. The experiences arise from this awareness, are sustained in the awareness and subside back into the awareness. But this awareness cannot itself be an experience, because an experience cannot be aware of an experience. So I cannot be any one of these experiences. What I am is that to which these experiences appear - Awareness Itself. Regards, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 1999 Report Share Posted December 30, 1999 Happy New Year's Eve. It's my son's birthday. Ben is 22 today. > At 06:47 PM 12/30/99, winter mute wrote: > > >I (again the "I" is a bit of a misguiding word > >to use) feel for the moment that all the > >different movements of the mind are the > >direct cause of the I-feeling, not the mind > >or consciousness itself, that paradoxically, the > >perceptions and the movements of the mind > >somehow "magically" give rise to the "I- > >feeling, either because they occur so close > >together in order (one thought giving rise to > >the next) or are so difficult to stop the flow > >of, or both, that it is very difficult to > >see that the I-feeling itself is empty > >and unable to operate on its own. > > > >So I was hoping someone out there could say > >something more about the relationship of the > >mind and the I-feeling and how to see more > >of what lies behind the illusory I-feeling. > >And by what force or possibility does the > >mind perceptions give rise to the I-feeling. > >How can they do that ? > I enjoyed your comments Amanda very much. > Greg Goode <goode > Dear Amanda, > > There are lots of creation stories accounting for the genesis of the > I-thought, or the I-feeling. But let's try to look directly at the > experience, setting aside the theories for a moment... Check this out, see > if it doesn't conform with your experience. > > The I-feeling and I-thought come up, say, if someone accuses us wrongly (or > rightly!) of doing something harmful. The feeling might be a sense of > localization or contraction or burning in the chest, or in the pit of the > stomach, or the face, or behind the eyes in the center of the forehead, or > wherever. This might correspond, roughly speaking, to "where" we think we > are located, if we have such a notion. What about the I-thought? The > I-thought is the thought I have of myself. It is a thought whose object is > the entity I take myself to be. After the accusation, it is this supposed > entity that seemed to be touched or hurt by the accusation. > > How does this all relate to the mind? By examining our experience, we > cannot find a "mind" that is a holder or container or controller of > thoughts. All we find is thoughts. We cannot even put our finger on a > causal process, whereby one thought causes another thought. What we find > is a series or stream of thoughts, one following another. Even if we found > what we take to be a cause, it would be just another thought. Same thing > for feelings and bodily sensations -- all these appearances or experiences, > one simply follows another. > > So where do the thoughts and feelings and sensations come from, where do > they go? Try, and we cannot find any such place or source. If we did seem > to find it, like AHAA! It's HERE! Well, that would be another thought or > feeling or sensation. There is awareness before and between the > experiences, taking note of the coming and going of the experiences. The > experiences arise from this awareness, are sustained in the awareness and > subside back into the awareness. But this awareness cannot itself be an > experience, because an experience cannot be aware of an experience. So I > cannot be any one of these experiences. What I am is that to which these > experiences appear - Awareness Itself. > > Regards, > > --Greg > I also enjoyed Greg's response. It is all helping me understand. I found this quote last night from Osho which also helped me ~ "Q: Beloved Bhagwan, Since being with You, so much growth & maturity has happened in me - I have changed in every aspect. At the same time, when I look into myself, I feel the same as I did when I was a little child. Is this my witness, or something else? Osho: It is your witness. Just remember one thing, that the feeling of being a child can be experienced in two ways. You can be a witness, & the experience of childhood can be an object. Then one more step is needed: you have to become the purity, the innocence of the child ... not separate ~ you are it. It will come. This is how it comes: first it comes as an object; you are still separate & watching it. This is beautiful & a great experience ~ that all rubbish is thrown out & you are feeling a very pure, innocent state ~ but you are still separate from it. Just go on witnessing it, & soon even the childhood will disappear, & there will be only the witness, the subjectivity. There will only be the mirror without mirroring anything. Then you have arrived home. You can mirror beautiful things, & it is good, but when the mirror is absolutely empty ... One of the Buddhist sriptures has the name "The Empty Mirror". That exactly describes the ultimate state of consciousness, when you simply are & there is nothing ~ not even childhood, not even silence, not even peace, not even blissfulness .. nothing that you can observe it. This ocean of nothingness surrounding you is nirvana. There is nothing more to explore. There is nothing more to find. But as it is going it is good: you are changing, & even to feel one's childhood is a great experience. But greater experiences are ahead. Don't stop, just continue till only you are left, alone, without a second." ~Osho~ Beyond Psychology love, Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 1999 Report Share Posted December 31, 1999 1. The "I" is Chitha-Jada Granthi, the knot between the the cosmic intelligence and the insentient body. It arises due to ignorance. You cannot trace it to any definite cause. If there be a cause , the only cause is ignorance. 2. Sri Ramana Mahrashi says the mind is nothing but thoughts. The root of all thoughts is the "I" thought. Hold on to the "I" thought and all other thoughts will dissappear. Therefore the relationship between the mind and the "I" is that without the "I" there is no mind as we know it. 3. How does the "I" thought survive multiple births and deaths ? Sri Krishna says in "Uddhava Gita", "At the time of death , all the past impressions in the mind will come to the fore. The person will lose control of his thinking. All these past impressions will group themselves into a dominant impression. The person uncontrollably attaches himself to this new impression. He loses all memory of his present life form. This attachment to a new mental impression is called birth. His forgetting of his old existence is death ". 4. Among the "sheaths" of existence, The "I" belongs to the Vigyanamaya Kosha and the mind belongs to the manomayakosha. Thus the "I" is superior to the mind and does not arise do to " movements of the mind". The movements of the mind arise due to the "I" thought. Sincerely, Anand --- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SVALPAM APYASYA DHARMASYA THRAYATE MAHATO BHAYATH "Even a Bit of this Dharma will overcome great fear " - Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >I have another question regarding the mind >and its relationship with the witness >(maybe my terms are not precise enough, >I will try and do my best to explain what I mean). > >I (again the "I" is a bit of a misguiding word >to use) feel for the moment that all the >different movements of the mind are the >direct cause of the I-feeling, not the mind >or consciousness itself, that paradoxically, the >perceptions and the movements of the mind >somehow "magically" give rise to the "I- >feeling, either because they occur so close >together in order (one thought giving rise to >the next) or are so difficult to stop the flow >of, or both, that it is very difficult to >see that the I-feeling itself is empty >and unable to operate on its own. > >So I was hoping someone out there could say >something more about the relationship of the >mind and the I-feeling and how to see more >of what lies behind the illusory I-feeling. >And by what force or possibility does the >mind perceptions give rise to the I-feeling. >How can they do that ? > >Best regards, > >Amanda. (Trying to celebrate New Year's >together with the mind chatter ) ) > A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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