Guest guest Posted January 2, 2000 Report Share Posted January 2, 2000 Parisi & Watson wrote: <My earlier question was about how to make this next step from neti neti to Atma Vichara, and what the proper relationship is between Atma Vichara and passive, choiceless witnessing.> Vishwanathan answered: .. . . .The next step occurs without effort! ------------------- Nitin: I would agree. I would add that the next step occurs through understanding, not practice - the understanding of `who' was doing the practice - that in fact there was never any `who' and everything was simply happening. The `who' was just an assumption. Best wishes, Nitin Homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/ntrasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2000 Report Share Posted January 3, 2000 I wish to quote from Nirvana Shatkam of Adi Shankara Charya. He starts with "Mano Budhi Ahankara Chithani Naham Na Cha Shrotra Jihve Na cha Grana Nethre Na Cha Vyoma Bhumir Na Thejo Na Vayuhu Chidananada Roopam Shiviham Shivoham" " I am not the mind, the intellect, the ego, the mind stuff. Neither am I the ears, tongue,eyes. I am not the earth nor the wind nor the brilliance. I am of the aspect of pure consciouness, I am Shiva Shiva ". This is neti neti marga. Sri Shankaracharya continue with this trend for 5 stanzas. The last stanza is however different. he says, " Aham Nirvikalpo Nirakara roopo, Vibutvachya saravathra sarvendriyanam. ..................................................................... Chidananda Roopam Shivoham Shivoham." " I am trancendetal, without form without attributes. I manifest everywhere in all aspects of the senses etc .etc. Thus he starts his composition in neti neti marga and ends in This I am This I am. Thus the understanding of who I am comes naturaly from neti neti marga. Anand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SVALPAM APYASYA DHARMASYA THRAYATE MAHATO BHAYATH "Even a Bit of this Dharma will overcome great fear " - Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:45:55 Nitin Trasi wrote: >Parisi & Watson wrote: > ><My earlier question was about how to make this next step from neti neti to Atma Vichara, and what the proper relationship is between Atma Vichara and passive, choiceless witnessing.> > >Vishwanathan answered: > >. . . .The next step occurs without effort! >------------------- >Nitin: >I would agree. I would add that the next step occurs through understanding, not practice - the understanding of `who' was doing the practice - that in fact there was never any `who' and everything was simply happening. The `who' was just an assumption. > >Best wishes, > >Nitin > >Homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/ntrasi > > > >[Attachments have been removed from this message] > >>Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ Contact Email Address: advaitins > > A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 Anand Natarajan wrote: > > I wish to quote from Nirvana Shatkam of Adi Shankara Charya. > > He starts with > "Mano Budhi Ahankara Chithani Naham > Na Cha Shrotra Jihve Na cha Grana Nethre > Na Cha Vyoma Bhumir Na Thejo Na Vayuhu > Chidananada Roopam Shiviham Shivoham" > > " I am not the mind, the intellect, the ego, the mind stuff. > Neither am I the ears, tongue,eyes. > I am not the earth nor the wind nor the brilliance. > I am of the aspect of pure consciouness, I am Shiva Shiva ". > > This is neti neti marga. Sri Shankaracharya continue with this trend for 5 stanzas. > > [...] > > Thus he starts his composition in neti neti marga and ends in This I am This I am. > Thus the understanding of who I am comes naturaly from neti neti marga. > i respectfully disagree with this conclusion (based on what Sankara has said here--which content of observation is applicable only under special conditions). i will in fact disagree with *any* conclusion, verbalized as a result of the atmavichara investigation. in fact, i even disagree with what i just said! seriously. (or am i really just kidding?!) zen koan humor...... ________________ yes, this is why anirvachaniya is asserted in this context. which is as close to a verbalized 'answer' we can get... here's a [temporary] mathematical formula derived from the application of atmavichara, attempting to appease the bullheaded intellect. vyavaharika paramarthika = ------------- anirvachaniya where anirvachaniya is the verbal equivalent to the mathematical zero. thus, vyavaharika paramarthika = ------------- 0 and therefore, paramarthika = infinite mystery. one will note that vyavaharika isn't itself based on nothingness, but is rather [through the jnanascope] divided by nothingness. therefore, the divisor is vyavaharika (the relative perception of maya); the [common] denominator is the substratum Absolute (or nirguna brahman) contemplated thus as indescribable (anirvachaniya); and the dividend is infinite mystery. another [and parallel] equation would be: saguna parabrahman = -------- (brahman) nirguna ----or---- Relative WHAT IS = ---------- (Reality) Absolute namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 It is my understanding that Adi Shankaracharya in Nirvanashatkam illustrates why "Parabrahman" can't be intellectually comprehensible. The poem identifies those which are explainable which include the mind, the intellect, the ego, the sense organs and the mind perception of the material goods. Shankaracharya recognizes that Parabrhaman is the cause and also the effects (perceived by the intellect). What Frank describes as 'atmavichara' is the contemplative process of eliminating every notion that the intellect creates. They include the algebraic equations, nirguna-saguna notions, neti-neti principle etc., However, all that we can do is try our level best to comprehend the Brahman intellectually by fully understanding its limitations. regards, Ram Chandran Frank is quite right that it is beyond the intellect to separate Separation between the cause and effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 >Anand Natarajan wrote: .... >> I wish to quote from Nirvana Shatkam of Adi Shankara Charya. >> >> He starts with >> "Mano Budhi Ahankara Chithani Naham >> Na Cha Shrotra Jihve Na cha Grana Nethre >> Na Cha Vyoma Bhumir Na Thejo Na Vayuhu >> Chidananada Roopam Shiviham Shivoham" >> >> " I am not the mind, the intellect, the ego, the mind stuff. >> Neither am I the ears, tongue,eyes. >> I am not the earth nor the wind nor the brilliance. >> I am of the aspect of pure consciouness, I am Shiva Shiva ". >> >> This is neti neti marga. Sri Shankaracharya continue with this trend for 5 stanzas. >> >> [...] >> >> Thus he starts his composition in neti neti marga and ends in This I am This I am. >> Thus the understanding of who I am comes naturaly from neti neti marga. Like Frank, I respectfully disagree, not so much perhaps with Shankara here, because he is also giving a poetic exposition. But with the sort of combined conclusion that (a) "the understanding of who I am comes naturaly from neti neti marga," and (b) "I am of the aspect of pure consciouness, I am Shiva Shiva." Neti neti will clear away beliefs and verbalizations about what I am, but will not result in a verbal or belief-based conclusion such as "I am Shiva." What if he'd said "I am Brahman," or "I am Jesus"? Namaste, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 here's a follow-up to the previous post on the math formula approaching the Self. sorry for the length, but if Sri Sadananda used to get away with it, why can't i? :-) ________________ because we start out ordinarily with the flow of constant assumptions that the world around us and within us is particularly real, as such, we therefore become attached to each specific object, event, entity, thoughtform, etc, as being real, as such, and in this way become enamored of each. the solution is the application of various yoga margas. vedanta utilizes the jnana marg. the highest method of application in the jnana marga, being the atmavichara or Self-enquiry method, is thus to apply the neti neti (not this, not this) principle, which is essentially the fruition of the witnessing modality. so what we first want to do is to detach ourselves from all of life's continuous wave of particulars. once this is effectively accomplished, we can then release this phase (the witnesing mode), and can then apply the next phase, proclaiming, "not this, as such; not this, as such." in other words, everything that dwells within/without us is in fact real; however, with the important stipulation that each particular is not real *apart* from its source in brahman. now, this phase represents the precursor to the final phase (i.e. moksha), which is where one no longer dwells within this or *any* modality of identifying with *any* approach in awareness--either as victim, witness, etc. rather one is immersed directly in suddha chit and suddha sat (pure Consciousness and pure Being), where there are no thoughts or conceptions concerning one's relationship to what is otherwise relatively defined as 'experience.' here, the triune categories of 'seer, seeing, seen' relatively fuse and absolutely dissolve. there is no longer any intellectual identification activity or process needed or required or even desired! everything now automatically flows. and this is the state of sahaja samadhi or moksha. (technically it is not a 'state' at all; but is the culmination of all...and beyond even calling it 'moksha.') and the interesting thing is that upon its arrival, one recognizes *instantly* that one has been intimately innately there all along. there has never been any separation from what was being *at hand* experienced. it was just the erroneous thinking compelling one to relate specifically to particular characteristics or events, as being real *as such and apart* from their source in brahman. this is the only thing that was released: the erroneous *thinking*. resolving one's attitude simply in the SELF-state of satchidananda, as one has always in fact been, only now it's in *full* awareness. postulate: let the mind go wherever it will, as long as one knows that wherever it goes, only reprents an *infinitesimal fragment* of one's Totality. commentary: whatever is conceivably experienced within or beyond the fulcrum of ego (viz. which lies within or beyond its barrier), all [of these] are manifestations of the Absolute. they are Its 'exhaled' manifestations; and, in that sense, they are *fragments* of one's Totality. and the source in each of these, traced back to one's true nature, is the Absolute or nirguna brahman (without attributes): the Source of All. so that one's true Self nature is this nirguna brahman; however, that nature is also externally manifest in things: objects, events, thoughts, people, animals, nature, stars, virtually everything in Life manifest, is the saguna brahman. therefore all of these things are *fragments* of one's Totality. therefore there is no real differentiation or alienation happening anywhere anytime. this is the true teaching of advaita vedanta or of any true esoteric non-dual spiritual philosophy; they all point down to the same basic conception, which is no conception at all: nothing can truly be said about It ultimately. It is at best considered beyond description and experience. It is simply 'What IS.' and the mind no longer wants to isolate any given thing or concept within It and attempt to say, "this is what It is." because as soon as one attempts doing so, there is duality created. therefore nothing can be said about It. Its true nature lies within mounananda or the bliss of Silence. wherever the mind takes us, there we are. yet the ordinary tendency is to get trapped in such exclusive places. and this is basically where delusion is born. no such place, in contradistinction to every other conceivable place simultaneously, ever exists. therefore we are ALL places conceivably in and beyond spacetime. this is the true nature, breadth and depth of the I AM. It is the seven conceivable directions in one: north, south, east, west, up, down, and within. brahman manifest as man, symbolizing the form of a box. when the box is opened (when its planes are unfolded), a cross appears--the universal esoteric emblem of brahman manifest. (notice the word 'man' in these latter words...and in others as well: atman, manu, manvantara, etc. ...interesting...) the jiva or ego tends to infiltrate specific things. therefore we wind up with the delusion that we are those specific things or thoughts, *as such*. the true Self however is fluid. it in fact encompasses those specific things. however, at the same time it is the all. and that is the important difference between the two. we have the jiva, the specific; the atman, the ALL, and the realization of the fusion of these two in jivatman. every single moment is a moment of reality. whether we conceive it in that moment or whether our conception or perception is regarded as a complete illusion or delusion, it is real. however, it is a fragment of our true Self, our Totality. and this has to be emphasized over and over and over, in order to break the ancient forged habit of living in and succumbing to relative multiplicity on its own terms. therefore, regardless of what one *ever* does, says, or thinks, is a perfect execution and enactment of the unfolding will of brahman. through this wisdom, the jnani allows himself to unfold, allows his/ her actions to be as they are, without resistence, without judgments. yet by default, since by the fact that he's rooted in the all, his tendencies in enacting his role are also holistically founded in the all (that is, what is *coming through* him, are thus founded). however, in the moments in time if/when they are not, he knows that it is because on one hand it was his unique prarabdha to deviate and contract from the Whole in such [various] ways, and on the other it is the will of the Ordainer of Souls, the perfected holographic embodiment of saguna brahman [in Isvara], who has willed it thus. OM shaanthi shaanthi shaanthiH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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