Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 Greetings Anand, Concerning the question of choice (raised by Anand and Max), my view is that yes we do make choices but these choices are not free. However since we are generally ignorant of the factors which determine us to choose one thing rather than another it is natural for us to believe erroneously that our choices are free. regards, Patrick Anand Natarajan wrote: > > One interesting aspect of free will > (if you can call it) is that both > Arjuna and Vidura told Krishna that > they do not wish to fight this war as > its result was mass destruction. > Krishna immediately excused Vidura who > then proceeded on a piligrimage. > However Sri Krishna bids Arjuna to > fight. Why ? > Vidura was a Jnani. He was > dominated by Sattva Guna.To him > therefore is the duty of teaching and > not fighting. Therefore he was excused > from the war. > Arjuna was a kshatriya . He was > dominated by Rajas and Sattva. His > duty was therefore to fight, failing > which he would incur sin. However you > should keep in mind that after telling > the whole of the Gita , one of the > last sentences Sri Krishna tells > Arjuna is " I have told you what I > have to say. Now you reflect upon it > and do as you choose ". Is'nt he > talking of free will ? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi defined free-will > in this context, you have the > free-will to choose whether you wish > to be attached to the body and suffer > your actions or be detached and enjoy > the bilss of the Self. > > Om > > --- > > A FREE web-based e-mail service > brought to you by the PC World > Technology Network. > Get your FREE account today at > http://www.myworldmail.com > ----- > [ONElist Sponsor] > Please click above to support our > sponsor > ----- > Discussion of the True Meaning of > Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy > focusing on non-duality between mind > and matter. Searchable List Archives > are available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > Contact Email Address: > advaitins > > > ======================================================================== > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this community, > send an email to: > advaitin- > and reply to the confirmation email we > send you. > ======================================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 Well, the best answer to free will which I always like is Sri Ramana Maharshi's Brahmastra , "Find out for whom is there free will or destiny ?". Regards, Anand A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Anand Natarajan wrote: > > Well, the best answer to free will > which I always like is Sri Ramana > Maharshi's Brahmastra , "Find out for > whom is there free will or destiny ?". > My understanding is that there are deeds but no doer and I think that most readers of the Gita would agree that is a faithful reading. Free will if there is such a thing is an attribute of the doer so postulating free will assumes that there is a doer (but I must admit that I surprised to find that nobody else seems to consider that this must be a blunder). By the way I think that verse from Chapter 18 that you quoted (" I have told you what I have to say. Now you reflect upon it and do as you choose ") is one of the most provocative of all and I'm sure it will make for some interesting discussion. regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Thanks firak for your quotations from Maitreya > .... > Free will is a concept that God has > programmed you > with to fully experience separation > and independence. > BUT, it is existentially impossible > for anyone to actually > have any will out of the control of > God?s Will. God is ALL > there is, and all egos and all their > choices are also God. > Beloveds, Totality is the master key. Here's one from Spinoza that I think you might like (the nineteenth century prose of the translation is a bit cumberesome but still majestic) The strong man has ever first in his thoughts that all things follow from the necessity of the Divine Nature, that whatever he deems to be horrible or evil and whatsoever accordingly appears to him to be impious, hateful, unjust or base assumes that appearance owing to his confused, fragmented and disordered view of the Universe. regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Namaste friends, yes, there is no free will, the Gita expresses this also quite clearly in my opinion. a thing i could never accept before, only lately it's coming clearer. free will is only apparent and very necessaryly given by "Source" Here are a few quotations from Maitreya, one of the few who expresses this point clearly. Enjoy your day (or night) firak from the New Dawn: www.ishwara.com .... >Your ego is programmed for free will and can’t really agree that everything is predestined by Source. This keeps the drama of separation going till the right moment. You have to believe in free will, you have no choice. Beloveds, you are all perfect as you are. The most ignorant savage will one day flower into the ultimate enlightenment. And in between he will experience every possibility of limitation and suffering. This is the context for the end of suffering, your awakening to the love, light and let go of the fifth body of God. ....If you can understand that you are a programmed organism with no free will and no chance to choose or alter your program in any way, you are blessed. It means that it is time for let go and surrender to the energy of NOW. It means it is time to say goodbye to the illusion of ‘free will’ and responsibility for your growth. Social responsibility is always needed by everyone, that is a practical matter. Spiritual responsibility is in the hands of God, He will give you all the experiences necessary to complete your karma and transcend your suffering. Beloveds, it’s all a cosmic joke, there is only Source disguised as you and everyone, simultaneously writing, directing and acting all the parts. When you can fully understand all this your days of suffering are numbered. ..... Free will is a concept that God has programmed you with to fully experience separation and independence. BUT, it is existentially impossible for anyone to actually have any will out of the control of God’s Will. God is ALL there is, and all egos and all their choices are also God. Beloveds, Totality is the master key. Be total in stage one: manifesting, choosind and taking responsiblity for your reality. Then be total in stage two: let go and surrender to The Will Of God. -----Izvorno sporocilo----- Od: pkenny [pkenny]Namesto Patrick Kenny Poslano: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:39 PM Za: advaitin Zadeva: Re: free will again Greetings Anand, Concerning the question of choice (raised by Anand and Max), my view is that yes we do make choices but these choices are not free. However since we are generally ignorant of the factors which determine us to choose one thing rather than another it is natural for us to believe erroneously that our choices are free. regards, Patrick Anand Natarajan wrote: > > One interesting aspect of free will > (if you can call it) is that both > Arjuna and Vidura told Krishna that > they do not wish to fight this war as > its result was mass destruction. > Krishna immediately excused Vidura who > then proceeded on a piligrimage. > However Sri Krishna bids Arjuna to > fight. Why ? > Vidura was a Jnani. He was > dominated by Sattva Guna.To him > therefore is the duty of teaching and > not fighting. Therefore he was excused > from the war. > Arjuna was a kshatriya . He was > dominated by Rajas and Sattva. His > duty was therefore to fight, failing > which he would incur sin. However you > should keep in mind that after telling > the whole of the Gita , one of the > last sentences Sri Krishna tells > Arjuna is " I have told you what I > have to say. Now you reflect upon it > and do as you choose ". Is'nt he > talking of free will ? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi defined free-will > in this context, you have the > free-will to choose whether you wish > to be attached to the body and suffer > your actions or be detached and enjoy > the bilss of the Self. > > Om > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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