Creating your own destiny

[Guest guest]

Anand Natarajan wrote:

 

Namaste Patrick,

 

The idea that previous Karma acts today and that our present

karma will be our tomorrow is a fundemental aspect of all Hindu scriptures. You

can quote from almost any scripture , you will find some line that supports

this. In fact it is said that the ancient sages were so much struck with this

idea that instead of holding God as the ultimate omnipotent entity, they

insisted that it was Karma that is omnipotent. This was wrong. Though karma

acts on us, it acts only on the "externalized " mind. The mind subdued by the

Self is not acted upon by Karma. Therefore to get rid of this wrong notion that

Karma is superior to God, it is said in the scriptures , that Lord Shiva

appeared before the Rishis and danced His celestial dance and the beats from the

drum He holds in His hand fell as words of Truth on the Rishis and these became

the Spoken words of wisdom, the Shruthis.

 

In modern times Sri Ramana Maharshi starts his beautiful work,

Upadesa Saram with a reference to this history by saying,

"Karthru Agnaya Prapyathe Phalam.

Karma Kim Param Karma Thath Jadam ".

 

"By the will of the Creator , the fruits of action are obtained,

Why is Karma superior ? Karma is inert ".

 

Greetings Anand:

 

Please allow me to explain why I asked the question about the effect of

thought on destiny

and why your answer invoking Karma doesn't satisfy me. First let me say that

since the Vedanta advertizes itself a philosophy and not a religion, I

believe

that I am entitled to take the parts that I find useful and reject the parts

that seem to me to be wrong-headed as long I am careful to respect other

people's

right to *their* opinions.

 

If the doctrine of Karma merely states that everything that takes place now

is

caused by something that took place in the past then I have absolutely no

quarrel with the statement that

"previous Karma acts today and that our present karma will be our tomorrow".

What I find objectionable is the way that the doctrine of Karma is used

to hold people accountable for whatever misfortune they happen to be

afflicted

with as if they had 'free will'. In particular moksha is supposed to be

denied to people because of their 'bad' thoughts and deeds.

 

People seem to cling to the idea of 'free will' for fear that to give it up

would be to relinquish any hope of making spiritual progress. Yet this

question of free will is just a matter of trying to distinguish what is true

from what is false by taking thought and consulting the thought of other

people who

have grappled with this question.

 

My purpose in citing the Upanishad and the Ashtavakra Gita was to try to

focus attention on what the scriptures say about the relationship between

thought and liberation. I think you will agree that this relationship is

extremely close!

 

Mind you, it is not the case that we have free will in the domain of thought.

Just as there are deeds but no doer, there are thoughts but no thinker.

(According to the Gita, man's entire inner life -- manas, buddhi, ahankara --

is as much a part of nature as his body.) So it must be that the Lord is

thinking our thoughts just as he is moving our limbs!

[Guest guest]

Greetings Patrick:

 

I agree with you one hundred percent regarding respecting other s right to

their opinion. I respectfully disagree with your observations regarding

Vedanta and Karma. I am not a spoke-person for Vedanta or Karma and what I

express here is my own understanding of Vedanta and Karama.

 

What is Vedanta?

Vedanta literally means culmination of knowledge (Veda - knowledge, anta =

end). It is the knowledge of the SELF. Vedanta is also the Atma Vichara

(Self Enquiry) to release us from our attachment to body, mind and intellect.

Vedanta through the Atma Vichara can help us to realize the ultimate reality

(SELF) to attain peace and permanent happiness. Vedanta implicitly also can

help us to meet the challenges of the world. Vedanta can help us develop the

positive mental attitude and can provide the technique of action applicable to

all walks of life including home, office, travel and everywhere. In summary,

Vedanta offers a practical way of life which can satisfy both our spiritual

and material needs. In conclusion, this is not an advertisement because

Vedanta can't sold or bought but can be practiced without any external help.

Vedanta does in fact claims that our true nature is Divine and if we fail to

establish and exhibit our divinity, it is not the fault of Vedanta.

 

You seem to believe that you are entitled to take the parts that you find

useful and reject the parts that seem not useful. These two parts do not

belong to Vedanta and it is your creation of the duality! I am quite

confident that Gita Satsang can help you to remove your notion about Vedanta

and stop to create new notions. Vedanta is not a religion but Vedanta also

require that we need the fundamental faith in Believe in ourselves. Without

that, questions only will remain - because every answer will raise another

question and there be endless loop of questions and answers. Any study or

discussion or Satsang require faith as the most important ingredient.

 

Tributes to Vedanta by World Scholars:

 

Arthur Schopenhauer:

"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that

of the Upanishads (Vedanta). It has been the solace of my life, it will be the

solace of my death."

 

Max Muller:

"If philosophy or religion is meant to be preparation for the after-life, a

happy life and happy death, I know of no better preparation for it than

Vedanta."

 

Your observation regarding Karma is in accurate. The doctrine Karma does not

appoint an external agent to make judgments. We deny our Moksha due to our

ignorance and always try to put the blame on someone else! In the Hindu

concept of Karma, it is no longer a question of rewards and punishments meted

out by an external judge. The human beings become the architect of their own

spiritual fortunes, no longer subject to chance or the will of an hypothetical

God. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad states that the actions of the human beings

decide the outcome. The doer of good becomes good, the doer of evil becomes

evil. One becomes virtuous by virtuous action and sinful by sinful action. As

is his desire so is his will, as his will so is the deed, he does, and

whatever deed he does, that he will reap. Ultimately, being Brahman, he goes

to Brahman!

 

Before closing, let me restate that I fully respect your right to your

opinions. I also feel that it is my duty to inform you about my understanding

of the terms - Vedanta and Karma. I sincerely believe that we both join this

list to remove our ignorance by helping each other.

 

Regards,

 

Ram Chandran

>pkenny

> Greetings Anand:

> ..............

> First let me say that since the Vedanta advertizes itself a

> philosophy and not a religion, I believe that I am entitled to

> take the parts that I find useful and reject the parts

> that seem to me to be wrong-headed as long I am careful to respect

> other people's right to *their* opinions.

> .......

> What I find objectionable is the way that the doctrine of

> Karma is used to hold people accountable for whatever misfortune

> they happen to be afflicted with as if they had 'free will'.

> In particular moksha is supposed to be denied to people because of

> their 'bad' thoughts and deeds. ...

> ...........

[Guest guest]

Namaste Patrick,

I had been nourishing this doubt which you have

written about for a long time. Although I believe in

the doctrine of Karma, I also believe that I cannot

even move a blade of grass without His will. That

means everything - right from the moment we get up in

the morning till we sleep in the night and even after

that everything happens according to His will. If that

is right, we have no free will. Then where does this

doctrine of Karma go? How do we create our own

destiny then? I got the answer from one of the books

of Maha Periava from Kanchi kamakoti Peetam.

An American lady had once told him that she could not

except the doctrine of rebirth and reincarnation. To

which the Acharya asked her to visit a maternity

hospital nearby and come back. When she came back

after visiting the hospital, He asked her "Are all the

children who were born today exactly the same?" to

which the answer was of course "No". Then "Is GOD such

a cruel person to create one with all luxury and the

other even handicapped and so on? No... we don't think

God as a cruel person who punishes everyone without

any cause. He is said to be an ocean of mercy. Then

why this difference. This difference was due to the

karmas of previous births". Now, this is where the

contradiction comes. If God decides every act, then

where does our will and so the consequence come from?

The Revered Acharya also says "If you think YOU are

the doer, then You will have to pay for the

consequences. For every act that you do, if you are

fully convinced that GOD is the doer, then you will

not be affected by the consequences". Also he says

"God has given man free will upto a certain extent.

Imagine a calf tethered to a peg on the ground. It

will be able to graze only around the area which the

cowherd decides,& no further". Here, God is considered

the cowherd, and man as the calf. So, there are

situations that we decide, and we get the consequences

of those actions, whether good or bad. Hence, the law

of Karma will affect us only if we think that we are

the doer. Otherwise, everything will be the Divine

Will. Even so, we cannot say "God has determined that

I will get Moksha at this time. And when that time

comes, I will surely get it". This can only be given

as an excuse for laziness. There is a very good saying

"God helps those who help themselves". Also "If you

take one step towards God, He runs forward Ten steps

to welcome you". We don't think "God will give me my

food today if he wants, why should I work for it".

Sure, God will give you food even if you don't work IF

AND ONLY IF YOU HAVE 100% FAITH THAT HE WILL. That

faith you will get when you have realized the Self. As

long as you think that you are the doer of your

actions, you will have to earn your own food. I hope

this is of some help to you.

Hari Om Tatsat,

Viji.

 

 

--- pkenny wrote:

> Anand Natarajan wrote:

>

> Namaste Patrick,

>

> The idea that previous Karma acts

> today and that our present karma will be our

> tomorrow is a fundemental aspect of all Hindu

> scriptures. You can quote from almost any scripture

> , you will find some line that supports this. In

> fact it is said that the ancient sages were so much

> struck with this idea that instead of holding God as

> the ultimate omnipotent entity, they insisted that

> it was Karma that is omnipotent. This was wrong.

> Though karma acts on us, it acts only on the

> "externalized " mind. The mind subdued by the Self

> is not acted upon by Karma. Therefore to get rid of

> this wrong notion that Karma is superior to God, it

> is said in the scriptures , that Lord Shiva appeared

> before the Rishis and danced His celestial dance and

> the beats from the drum He holds in His hand fell as

> words of Truth on the Rishis and these became the

> Spoken words of wisdom, the Shruthis.

>

> In modern times Sri Ramana Maharshi

> starts his beautiful work, Upadesa Saram with a

> reference to this history by saying,

> "Karthru Agnaya Prapyathe Phalam.

> Karma Kim Param Karma Thath Jadam ".

>

> "By the will of the Creator , the

> fruits of action are obtained,

> Why is Karma superior ? Karma is

> inert ".

>

> Greetings Anand:

>

> Please allow me to explain why I asked the

> question about the effect of thought on destiny

> and why your answer invoking Karma doesn't

> satisfy me. First let me say that

> since the Vedanta advertizes itself a philosophy

> and not a religion, I believe

> that I am entitled to take the parts that I find

> useful and reject the parts

> that seem to me to be wrong-headed as long I am

> careful to respect other people's

> right to *their* opinions.

>

> If the doctrine of Karma merely states that

> everything that takes place now is

> caused by something that took place in the past

> then I have absolutely no

> quarrel with the statement that

> "previous Karma acts today and that our present

> karma will be our tomorrow".

> What I find objectionable is the way that the

> doctrine of Karma is used

> to hold people accountable for whatever

> misfortune they happen to be afflicted

> with as if they had 'free will'. In particular

> moksha is supposed to be

> denied to people because of their 'bad' thoughts

> and deeds.

>

> People seem to cling to the idea of 'free will'

> for fear that to give it up

> would be to relinquish any hope of making

> spiritual progress. Yet this

> question of free will is just a matter of trying

> to distinguish what is true

> from what is false by taking thought and

> consulting the thought of other people who

> have grappled with this question.

>

> My purpose in citing the Upanishad and the

> Ashtavakra Gita was to try to

> focus attention on what the scriptures say about

> the relationship between

> thought and liberation. I think you will agree

> that this relationship is

> extremely close!

>

> Mind you, it is not the case that we have free

> will in the domain of thought.

> Just as there are deeds but no doer, there are

> thoughts but no thinker.

> (According to the Gita, man's entire inner life

> -- manas, buddhi, ahankara --

> is as much a part of nature as his body.) So it

> must be that the Lord is

> thinking our thoughts just as he is moving our

> limbs!

>

 

 

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