Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Re:Advaitin 451 As Anand says (quoting Ramana Maharshi), the question especially in an Advaita list would seem to be "who" is to have the free will? As according to Advaita the separate individual ego is an illusion, it follows that its free will is also equally an illusion - an illusion consequent on the primary illusion. Ramakrishna Parahamsa put this very simply. He said, as long as you think of yourself as a separate entity - separate from God (or Brahman), you will (appear to) have free will (not verbatim). To whom then does Lord Krishna speak? In the ultimate analysis, there was never a (separate) Lord Krishna, and a (sperate) Arjuna. It was all lila. "He" was speaking in the context of that lila, in which there appear to be separate individuals. ---------------- Message: 23 Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:59:08 -0800 "Anand Natarajan" <anandn Re: Re: free will again Well, the best answer to free will which I always like is Sri Ramana Maharshi's Brahmastra , "Find out for whom is there free will or destiny ?". Regards, Anand Best wishes, Nitin Homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/ntrasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 One of the revered Swamis of the Chinmaya Mission in one of his lectures had said "Now you read the Gita from Arjuna's point of view. A time will come when you read the Gita from Krishna's point of view. That is when you begin to enjoy the whole thing" I am not sure I fully understand the implications of this sentence, but it is certainly very interesting. Regards, Anand On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:48:36 Nitin Trasi wrote: >Re:Advaitin 451 > >As Anand says (quoting Ramana Maharshi), the question especially in an Advaita list would seem to be "who" is to have the free will? As according to Advaita the separate individual ego is an illusion, it follows that its free will is also equally an illusion - an illusion consequent on the primary illusion. Ramakrishna Parahamsa put this very simply. He said, as long as you think of yourself as a separate entity - separate from God (or Brahman), you will (appear to) have free will (not verbatim). To whom then does Lord Krishna speak? In the ultimate analysis, there was never a (separate) Lord Krishna, and a (sperate) Arjuna. It was all lila. "He" was speaking in the context of that lila, in which there appear to be separate individuals. > > A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Anand Natarajan wrote: > > One of the revered Swamis of the Chinmaya Mission in one of his lectures had said "Now you read the Gita from Arjuna's point of view. A time will come when you read the Gita from Krishna's point of view. That is when you begin to enjoy the whole thing" > I am not sure I fully understand the implications of this sentence, but it is certainly very interesting. > > Regards, > Anand > Here's yet another question: Arjuna is the Lord of the Chariot and Krishna the Charioteer. Did Vyasa have the chariot metaphor of the Katha Upanishad in the back of his mind? (Considering that one of the most famous verses in Chapter II of the Gita is lifted directly from this Upanishad). Regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Reading the Gita from Krishna's standpoint is what Nisargadatta Maharaj also recommends. It is the standpoint of Consciousness, not that of the individual doer-ego. Regards, --Greg At 10:00 AM 1/10/00 -0800, Anand Natarajan wrote: >"Anand Natarajan" <anandn > > > >One of the revered Swamis of the Chinmaya Mission in one of his lectures had said "Now you read the Gita from Arjuna's point of view. A time will come when you read the Gita from Krishna's point of view. That is when you begin to enjoy the whole thing" >I am not sure I fully understand the implications of this sentence, but it is certainly very interesting. > >Regards, > Anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Greetings Anand: That is a good question. Arjuna is the Jiva and Krishna is the Brahaman . Arjuna's point of view is full of doubts, confusion and the perception of duality. In Krishna's point of view, there is no duality and neither confusion. Krishna is detached (he observes the war as a witness). Krishna has no worries about the consequneces of the war and he is the knower. Arjun on the other hand was fully attached to all the participants of the ward (friends and foes) and was worried about consequences of the war. The revered Swamy of the Mission appear to bring two different points of view of Gita - One who reads Gita with doubts in the mind (Arjuna) and the who is free from all doubts(Krishna). Arjuna is the student and Krishna is the teacher. From the student point of view, some doubts always remain (that is why he/she is a student). At the same time, from the teacher's point of view there are no doubts! If and when the student becomes the teacher he/she enjoys without any doubt. The Hindu Culture maintains the Guru-Sishya-Parampara (generation of teacher to student). The revered Swamy's metaphor is quite profounding and powerful. regards, Ram Chandran >"Anand Natarajan" <anandn >One of the revered Swamis of the Chinmaya Mission in one of his lectures had said "Now you read the Gita from Arjuna's point of view. A time will come when you read the Gita from Krishna's point of view. That is when you begin to enjoy the whole thing" >I am not sure I fully understand the implications of this sentence, but it is certainly very interesting. > >Regards, > Anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Greetings Patrick: Your observation about the connection between Katha Upanishad and Bhagavad Gita is quite interesting. Dr. Radhakrishnan's book on "The Bhagavad Gita" he calls Gita as an Upanishad. He rightly points out that Gita derives its inspiration from the remarkable group of scriptures, the Upanishads. Vedavyasa who compiled the Vedas (Upanishads are part of the Vedas) is also the author of Mahabharat. Gita is a part of Mahabharat and Sage Vyasa has beautifuly structured Gita in the middle of Mahabharat at the most appropriate War Scene. Sage Vyasa was also the author of the major Puranas which became valuable workbooks to substantiate the philosophical aspects of Hinduism. In his book on Gita, Dr. Radhakrishnan describes the Gita verses that originated from the Upanishads with appropriate quotation. In summary, Gita contains the essence of all Hindu Scriptures including the Vedas, Brahma Sutras and the Upanishads. This may explain why this list has undertaken the spiritual sadhana of Gita Satsang from the new millennium. regards, Ram Chandran Patrick Kenny wrote: > > Here's yet another question: Arjuna is > the Lord of the Chariot and Krishna the > Charioteer. Did Vyasa have the chariot > metaphor of the Katha Upanishad in the > back of his mind? (Considering that one > of the most famous verses in Chapter II > of the Gita is lifted directly from this > Upanishad). > > Regards, > > Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2000 Report Share Posted January 11, 2000 Dear Anand, Nisargadatta Maharaj recommended it too, as Greg has just pointed out. However, I would say that it is less of a real recommendation than a comment. It is not something that one "should do." It is something that happens with spiritual evolution and maturity. In the beginning, the identification is with Arjuna in the sense that the identification is more with the questions, while the answers are attempted to be intellectually comprehended. With spiritual maturation and the intuitive understanding, the questions seem transparent, and the answers obvious. Best wishes, Nitin Homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/ntrasi - Anand Natarajan <anandn <pkenny; <sonja.kotar; Nitin Trasi <ntrasi Cc: Advaitin <advaitin > Monday, January 10, 2000 11:30 PM Re: Free will > > > One of the revered Swamis of the Chinmaya Mission in one of his lectures had said "Now you read the Gita from Arjuna's point of view. A time will come when you read the Gita from Krishna's point of view. That is when you begin to enjoy the whole thing" > I am not sure I fully understand the implications of this sentence, but it is certainly very interesting. > > Regards, > Anand > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:48:36 Nitin Trasi wrote: > >Re:Advaitin 451 > > > >As Anand says (quoting Ramana Maharshi), the question especially in an Advaita list would seem to be "who" is to have the free will? As according to Advaita the separate individual ego is an illusion, it follows that its free will is also equally an illusion - an illusion consequent on the primary illusion. Ramakrishna Parahamsa put this very simply. He said, as long as you think of yourself as a separate entity - separate from God (or Brahman), you will (appear to) have free will (not verbatim). To whom then does Lord Krishna speak? In the ultimate analysis, there was never a (separate) Lord Krishna, and a (sperate) Arjuna. It was all lila. "He" was speaking in the context of that lila, in which there appear to be separate individuals. > > > > > > > > A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. > Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 This is true - often, if not always, when Nisargadatta seems to be speaking normatively and prescriptively, he is actually being descriptive, telling what will happen when that kind of understanding dawns. Regards, --Greg At 05:15 PM 1/11/00 +0530, Nitin Trasi wrote: >"Nitin Trasi" <ntrasi > >Dear Anand, > >Nisargadatta Maharaj recommended it too, as Greg has just pointed out. >However, I would say that it is less of a real recommendation than a >comment. It is not something that one "should do." It is something that >happens with spiritual evolution and maturity. In the beginning, the >identification is with Arjuna in the sense that the identification is more >with the questions, while the answers are attempted to be intellectually >comprehended. With spiritual maturation and the intuitive understanding, the >questions seem transparent, and the answers obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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