question

April 16, 2002

Dear Jay

>

> Dear Sadanandji

>

> Technically this cannot be an answer - at best it can be called a

> response. You are falling in the trap of answering a question

> which you have qualified as invalid.

>

> Spiritual dialogue is great fun..... but we have to make sure

> it does not degenerate into mere mental gymnastics.

> It has to be tangible - it has to be experienced first hand.

> Mere mental acceptance has very limited milage.

>

> What do the list members think?

>

> jay : )

> Vivekananda Centre London

To be fair, Sri Sadanandaji has answered this question:

>>

Our present state is according to our karma of last life. then I

want to KNOW is at the first time why did we came here? Before that

what is the our state ?

>>

Creation is beginning less. Hence one cannot say how

and why -One can come up with theories but those are

only to satisfy an intellect to some degree. Honest

answer is - there is no beginning.

regards

Sundar Rajan

April 16, 2002

advaitin, "Vivekananda Centre" <vivekananda@b...> wrote:

> -

> jagannath M

> Monday, April 08, 2002 12:11

> Question

>

> I am Jagannath. I got the e-mail address from the website.

> I request you to please answer my basic question on spirituality.

>

> 1). If we are all part of the God then why did we came to this

world ?.

> Our present state is according to our karma of last life.

then I

> want to KNOW is at the first time why did we came here?

> Before that what is the our state ? and after getting Mukti

what

> will be our state?

>

Namaste Shri Jagannath,

Here is my answer to your question.

Broadly speaking there are two states of being.

State0: State of Brahman

State1: State where the illusion of duality is witnessed.

State0 is the absolute truth. However, for reasons that

will never ever be known, the Being desires to entertain

itself by transiting from State0 into State1. Now it has been

this way for eternity and IT WILL BE THIS WAY FOR ETERNITY.

This game is beginningless and endless.

Why ?

It is just the nature of this Being to play and keep jumping

between States0 and State1.

Problem is not in State1 itself. Problem is the helplessness

(apparent bondage) that the Being feels while it is in state1.

Mukti is simply, the Being reminding itself WHILE IN STATE1 that

it is all its own play. Mukti is simply the Being learning the

rules of the play WHILE IN STATE1 so that it starts enjoying

the play rather than suffering while playing.

Mukti is NOT transiting into state0 forever. State0 is beyond the

control of State1. As mentioned above, the Being in State0 is an

eternal player and will always transit into state1. There is nothing

that you can do about it. State0 is so great that anything the Being

does in State1, may it be the worst possible act, fails to affect

the State0 even a bit.

Hope this helps,

Best regards

Shrinivas Gadkari

April 16, 2002

Namaskar My Friends

New to List : )

What if

his answer

that he has qualified as being his answer based on his understanding

really and truley is his answer

regardless of the question

Any comments from list members on this possibility : )

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

DharmaDev Arya

Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada; adv list

Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:01 PM

Re: Re: Question

>-

>"kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada

><advaitin>; <vivekananda

>Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:52

>Re: Re: Question

>

>> Shree Jagannath,

>>

>> Here is my answer to your question based on my

>> understanding.

>>

>> Your question involves some contraditions. "If we are

>> part of God then whey did we come into this world?" -

><snip>.....

>

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

>Dear Sadanandji

>

>Technically this cannot be an answer - at best it can be called a

>response. You are falling in the trap of answering a question

>which you have qualified as invalid.

>

>Spiritual dialogue is great fun..... but we have to make sure

>it does not degenerate into mere mental gymnastics.

>It has to be tangible - it has to be experienced first hand.

>Mere mental acceptance has very limited milage.

>

>What do the list members think?

>

>jay : )

>Vivekananda Centre London

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

April 16, 2002

dear list,

yes, the main point in any question is to try to understand who am I, the

question is a product of a mind caught in the grip of ignorance. there for

all questions that come from a sincere seeker after self knowledge are valid

question and worthy of a knowledgeable answer. jaya

---

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release 2/04/2002

April 16, 2002

> Dear Sadanandji

>

> Technically this cannot be an answer - at best it can be called a

> response. You are falling in the trap of answering a question

> which you have qualified as invalid.

>

> Spiritual dialogue is great fun..... but we have to make sure

> it does not degenerate into mere mental gymnastics.

> It has to be tangible - it has to be experienced first hand.

> Mere mental acceptance has very limited milage.

>

> What do the list members think?

>

> jay : )

> Vivekananda Centre London

Dear Jay,

To be fair, Sri Sadanandji did answer this question

> Our present state is according to our karma of

> last life. then I

> want to KNOW is at the first time why did we

> came here?

> Before that what is the our state ?

with this answer:

Creation is beginning less. Hence one cannot say how

and why -One can come up with theories but those are

only to satisfy an intellect to some degree. Honest

answer is - there is no beginning.

To the question,

> and after

> getting Mukti what

> will be our state?

The scriptures address this state of 'JivanMukti' in lots of places.

But here are a couple of pointers.

In the Gita, Lord Krishna indicates what happens when

the Sadhaka gets a first 'glimpse' at the state of Moksha. (I have

left out some details to keep it simple here.) :

yaM labdhvaa cha aparaM laabhaM manyate na adhikaM tataH .

yasmin sthito na duHkhena guruNaapi vichaalyate .. 6.22..

Obtaining which one does not think of any other acquisition to be

superior to that, and being established in which one is not

perturbed even by great sorrow;

When that 'attempt' is stabilised and the self-knowledge becomes

steady:

When the Self is realized, the Sadhaka realizes whatever has to be

accomplished has been accomplished, and whatever has to be acquired

has been acquired.

(Apastamba Dharma Sutras, 1.22.2)

regards

Sundar Rajan

April 16, 2002

> Dear Sadanandji

>

> Technically this cannot be an answer - at best it can be called a

> response. You are falling in the trap of answering a question

> which you have qualified as invalid.

>

> Spiritual dialogue is great fun..... but we have to make sure

> it does not degenerate into mere mental gymnastics.

> It has to be tangible - it has to be experienced first hand.

> Mere mental acceptance has very limited milage.

>

> What do the list members think?

>

> jay : )

> Vivekananda Centre London

Dear Jay,

To be fair, Sri Sadanandji did answer this question

> Our present state is according to our karma of

> last life. then I

> want to KNOW is at the first time why did we

> came here?

> Before that what is the our state ?

with this answer:

Creation is beginning less. Hence one cannot say how

and why -One can come up with theories but those are

only to satisfy an intellect to some degree. Honest

answer is - there is no beginning.

To the question,

and after

> getting Mukti what

> will be our state?

The scriptures address this in lots of places. But here are a couple

of pointers. In the Gita, Lord Krishna indicates what happens when

the Sadhaka gets a first 'glimpse' at the state of Moksha. (I have

left out some details to keep it simple here.) :

yaM labdhvaa cha aparaM laabhaM manyate na adhikaM tataH .

yasmin sthito na duHkhena guruNaapi vichaalyate .. 6.22..

Obtaining which one does not think of any other acquisition to be

superior to that, and being established in which one is not

perturbed even by great sorrow;

When that 'attempt' is stabilised and the self-knowledge becomes

steady:

When the Self is realized, the Sadhaka realizes whatever has to be

accomplished has been accomplished, and whatever has to be acquired

has been acquired.

(Apastamba Dharma Sutras, 1.22.2)

regards

Sundar Rajan

April 16, 2002

Namaste,

Shankara's Bhaja Govindam (Moha Mudgara), verse 23 has the

same phrase:

kastvaM ko.ahaM kuta aayaataH

kaa me jananii ko me taataH . .............

Who are you? Who am I? Whence have we come? Who is my mother? Who is

my father? ...............

He then gives some of the means to find out the answers.

The question 'why' dissolves by itself once the source is reached.

Till then one's 'karma', which includes the paying off of one's debts

that have been incurred (to gods, ancestors, creatures, etc.) has to

be fulfilled.

Declaring the 'ego' as bankrupt, - and in Sri Ramakrishna's words-

giving the power of attorney to the Supreme, releases one from the

debts speedily!

Regards,

Sunder

advaitin, "JAYA" <jaya@b...> wrote:

> dear list,

>

> yes, the main point in any question is to try to understand who am

I,

April 16, 2002

Namaste Sri Jay:

All replies that any member posts with respect to any question is

always his/her response. Such responses may or may not clarify the

doubts of all members - some members may be quite satisfied and others

may not. Even such agreements and disagreements are not

permanant and can change over time.

For those who have strong conviction to 'theory of karma' such

questions will not arise!

Please understand that Sadaji did not try to prove but just treat the

question more seriously and try to explain with a complete response.

We should thankful to him for taking his time to provide a

satisfactory answer on the basis of his understanding.

Here is a response from Sadaji's guru, Swami Chinmayanandaji:

Swami Chinmayanandaji was quite tactful in responding to questions

such as the one raised by Sri Jagnath. Once someone during a discourse

asked him the same question - 'When did first karma (vasana) begin?'

Swamiji said, "It is a beautiful question and let answer you after the

discourse." The devotee was very pleased, and met Swamiji at the end

of his discourse.

Swamiji gave him a pen and white sheet of paper and asked him to write

the question in bold letters. The devotee wrote in big bold letters

the question and brought to Swamiji. Swamiji told him to fold the

paper very carefully and put it in his pocket. The devotee followed

Swamiji's direction and then asked Swamiji, "Can you please tell me

the answer?"

Now Swamiji with big smile, asked him to sit down and said: "You

should keep this paper safetly with you and when you get liberated,

you should take this paper directly to God and He will provide you

with the answer!" After hearing this, the devotee sat in front of him

for few minutes and he understood the implied answer. Swamiji later

explained to the devotee that 'Karma' is aNati and is beginningless!

Warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "Vivekananda Centre" <vivekananda@b...> wrote:

> Dear Sadanandji

>

> Technically this cannot be an answer - at best it can be called a

> response. You are falling in the trap of answering a question

> which you have qualified as invalid.

>

> Spiritual dialogue is great fun..... but we have to make sure

> it does not degenerate into mere mental gymnastics.

> It has to be tangible - it has to be experienced first hand.

> Mere mental acceptance has very limited milage.

April 17, 2002

Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda wrote:

-

jagannath M

Monday, April 08, 2002 12:11

Question

I am Jagannath. I got the e-mail address from the website.

I request you to please answer my basic question on spirituality.

1). If we are all part of the God then why did we came to this world ?.

Our present state is according to our karma of last life. then I

want to KNOW is at the first time why did we came here?

Before that what is the our state ? and after getting Mukti what

will be our state?

-----------------------------

Dear shri Jagannath,

Before going into answering your interesting question,could you please do

vichara on the following points and respond?

1.Am I convinced that I am a part of God? If yes, who has convinced me that I am

so? Am I convinced that God is greater than me? If so, should not I strive to be

like him? Since I am a part of Him, there is no reason for my not baecoming the

whole of Him!

2.You appear to believe in karma and are convinced that your present life is due

to your past life's karmas. Is this belief based on some studies made by you in

this life or due to some body having told you so and your having fallen for it!

Do vichara.

3.As human beings, we are endowed with the rare commodity called Budhi.We also

have Intelligence because of which we do not want to accept anything on face

value.We are also endowed with a Mind with which we can do vichara.

Our Hindu Scriptures prescribe the following line of Vichara:

"Ko Aham" ---- "Who am I?"

"Katham Idam Jaatam"-----"How has all this that I see around me come about?"

"Kovai kartaasya vidyute"----"By whose action do all these exist?"

"Upaadaanam kim asti?"-----"What is the material with which all this has been

produced?"

Shall respond further if I hear from you.

Hari OM!

Swaminarayan

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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April 17, 2002

Dear Jagannath,

To answer your question in shankara's adavita perspective the hymn

"vishvam darpana" in shrI dakshiNAmUrti stotra. I guess what Jaya had

explained was in sync with that.

I do not know how many members of this group would accept, but let

me try to explain in the shaiva sidhdhantha perspective. shaiva

sidhdhantha also accepts advaita, but in shaiva sidhdhantha context

advaita is qualitative than quantitative. As per that philosophy

there are three permanent (anAti) things. God, souls and bonds (pati,

pashu and pAsam respectively). None originated fromt he other. By

nature God is free from bonds and the souls are in bonds. The bonds

or impurities are of three types - ANava, karma, mAya. ANava is the

mUla mala and the pashus had only that. God out of Its Grace on

pashus gave the bodies out of mAya. So here mAya though a filth is

also a boon to the pashu. How is that possible ? When the vessels are

dirty and oily, we apply soap. soap is also a filth because unless

you wash that off you cannot use the vessel for eating. But it cleans

the stronger sticking dirt (here ANava). (This is in contrast to

shankara advaita which considers mAya as the mala). From the subtle

bodies pashus had out of the deeds they performed, they acquired

karma. At the point of liberation God and soul get to the state of

advaita and hence the bonds (pAsham) is off.

(I was long time contemplating to write article comparing and

contrasting the shankara advaita, kashmiri shaiva advaita and shaiva

sidhdhantha, though do not know how scholarly it would be. If

parameshvara's Grace be there to do that one it would come out.)

Thank you.

namaH shivAya

love,

Ganesh

------------------------

Visit Shaivam Home Page at http://www.shaivam.org

------------------------

advaitin, "Vivekananda Centre" <vivekananda@b...> wrote:

> -

> jagannath M

> Monday, April 08, 2002 12:11

> Question

>

> I am Jagannath. I got the e-mail address from the website.

> I request you to please answer my basic question on spirituality.

>

> 1). If we are all part of the God then why did we came to this

world ?.

> Our present state is according to our karma of last life.

then I

> want to KNOW is at the first time why did we came here?

> Before that what is the our state ? and after getting Mukti

what

> will be our state?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~response from Vivekananda Centre ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> Dear Jagannath

>

> Very good question..... let us see what response our list can

provide.

> We do not promise that we will 'answer your question'.

> But I am sure we will respond to your question

> in a wide variety of ways.

>

> jay Vivekananda Centre London

>

April 17, 2002

(somehow the previous time I posted did not appear in the list. so

reposting. Pls bear with me if it repeat !)

Dear Jagannath,

To answer your question in shankara's adavita perspective the

hymn "vishvam darpana" in shrI dakshiNAmUrti stotra. I guess what

Jaya had explained was in sync with that.