Ishwara kR^ipA

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

I would be extremely grateful if the list members can express their views on

the following.

 

.. What is Shankara’s stand on Ishwara kR^ipA ?.

 

.. Does he deny that Ishwara has the capability to release a jIvan from

samsaara?

 

.. Does the popular advaitic definition of Ishwara (assuming he is saguNa

brahma) ‘mAyA sahitam brahma’ have any shruti basis.

 

.. Ishwara kR^ipA my not be needed for a negation approach. But that doesn’t

mean it is the only approach for mukti.

 

(A more Shruti oriented approach would add value.)

 

bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

Aravind

 

 

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[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

Shankara mentions anugraha specifically in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya:

I:i:20 and II:iii:41.

 

Both Ramana Maharshi and Sri Ramakrishna said: " The winds of Grace are

always blowing; just turn your sails in the right direction!!"

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

"Aravind Krishna" <seeksha

advaitin

advaitin

Ishwara kR^ipA

Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:02:05 CST

 

 

Namaste,

I would be extremely grateful if the list members can express their views on

the following.

 

.. What is Shankara’s stand on Ishwara kR^ipA ?.

 

.. Does he deny that Ishwara has the capability to release a jIvan from

samsaara?

 

.. Does the popular advaitic definition of Ishwara (assuming he is saguNa

brahma) ‘mAyA sahitam brahma’ have any shruti basis.

 

.. Ishwara kR^ipA my not be needed for a negation approach. But that doesn’t

mean it is the only approach for mukti.

 

(A more Shruti oriented approach would add value.)

 

bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

Aravind

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ramachandran,

First I thank you and sundar for the response.

>

>According to Shankara, Brahman is nirgunA, that is without >attributes.

>This is the highest order of reality. The concept of different orders of

>reality is a unique feature of >Shankara's Advaita Philosophy. Individuals

>perceive different >orders of reality due to

 

My question is basically not towards saguNa, nirguNa, bakti, orders of

reality or towards realization. Its totally towards vyAvahArIka prapancha

and the ring master Ishwara who runs this prapancha.

>However, Shankara does not deny Ishwara or

>Ishwara Kripa but consider it as a lower order of reality.

 

First he is not a conception. Even if you say he does not exist, he exist.

My basic question was on the nature of Ishwara. The most popular definition

is 'karma phala dhAta'. This is accepted by all schools.

 

Is he just a karma pala dhAtA ?

 

As you mentioned orders of reality, where does shruti speak about a higher

and lower order of reality ?.

 

Basically in our sanAtana dharma from time immemorial there were great

mahAtmas and they have said a lot to guide us, but when it comes to making a

conclusion, the one and only pamANa that can serve is shruti. We have to

provide enough shruti vakyams for any statement.

 

Namaste

Aravind

 

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[Guest guest]

Greetings Arvind:

 

According to Shankara, Brahman is nirgunA, that is without attributes. This is

the highest order of reality. However, Shankara does not deny Ishwara or

Ishwara Kripa but consider it as a lower order of reality. The concept of

different orders of reality is a unique feature of Shankara's Advaita

Philosophy. Individuals perceive different orders of reality due to ignorance

and with complete wisdom they realize the highest order of reality. What is

Shankara's views regarding worship and the worshiper? This is a complex

question and it needs to be explained.

 

Shankara does not advocate worship to the Brahman but suggests that Brahman

has to be realized and merged with. Majority of us not at this sophisticated

level of understanding and we need to prepare ourselves spiritually to reach

that level. And this takes us back to the concept of Bhakti for God as a

personalized and intellectually acceptable being. This necessitates the

creation of saguna Brahman - Ishwara with attributes. Is Brahman nirguna or

saguna is an ancient question with no resolution. Shankara says that Brahman

is nirguna but viewing from human angle, He appears as saguna. It is the human

limitation that is responsible for the creation and worship of Ishwara. These

limitations are known as upAdhis caused by avidya (ignorance) and consequently

the human perceives Ishwara and seeks Ishwara Kripa to reach the highest order

of reality.

 

The distinction between human (relative) consciousness and supreme (absolute)

consciousness is illustrated beautifully in Gita through the dialog between

Arjuna and Krishna. When we perceive Ishwara and Ishwara Kripa we have the

consciousness of the absolute and when we realize Brahman, our consciousness

of the absolute merges with the absolute consciousness! At this stage the

worshiper, worship and worshiped become indistinguishable. The field and

knower of the field are the same. The mind becomes the SELF and Atman =

Brahman. Swami Vivekananda beautifully concludes: "Time, space and causation

are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen. In the Absolute itself,

there is neither space nor time nor causation!"

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Let us start with smritis, Gita and Mandukya-Karika, almost on equal

footing with the shrutis:

 

Gita: 10:11

 

teshhamevaanukamparthamahamaj~naanaja.n tamaH .

naashayaamyaatmabhaavastho j~naanadiipena bhaasvataa ..

 

Out of mere compassion for them, I, abiding in their Self,destroy the

darkness born of ignorance, by the luminous lamp of wisdom.

 

Shankara's comment on this is worth reading, rather than quoting here.

 

 

Gaudapada Karika: III:16 bolsters the point made by Ramji:

 

aashramaastrividhaa hiinamadhyamotkR^ishhTadR^ishhTayaH .

upaasanaopadishhTeya.n tadarthamanukampayaa ..

 

There are three stages of life corresponding to three-lowere, middle, and

high-powers of comprehension. The Scripture, out of compaasion, has taught

this devotion(or discipline) for the benefit of those(who are not yet

enlightened.

 

Again, Shankara's commentary is worth reading.

 

 

In Brahmasutra Bhasya I:i:20, Shankara gives references to Katha,&

Chandogya; in III:ii:41, he refers to Kaushitaki III:8.

 

I wonder what more shruti evidence Shankara needs to produce!

 

For those with the highest understanding, he has composed the Nirguna

Manasa Puja, and DakshinaMurti Stotra.

 

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

"Aravind Krishna" <seeksha

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Ishwara kR^ipA

Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:49:20 CST

 

 

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[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Ishwara kR^ipA

Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:15:56 -0330 (NST)

The guru was praised, and the

importance of the guru was stressed throughout, but not

IshwarakR^ipa (for SELF-Knowledge).

 

**** Guru is NO OTHER than Ishvara! Is it not?

 

.....mokshamuula.n guroH kR^ipaa .

 

 

Guru Gita even advocates advaita bhaava in all circumstances except in the

presence of the Guru!

 

For a thorough discussion of this, may I refer the readrs to the book:

adi Shanara, His Life and Times, by Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati of

Kanchi Pitha. publ. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan 2nd ed. 1988.

esp Ch.6, pp. 85-95 Authorities for Ishvara Avatara.

 

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

I have always thought and I still think IshwarakR^ipa is the most

essential for Self-realization (IshwarAnugrahena advaitavAsanA -

AvadhutagItA verse 1). The puruShArthAs of a human (dharma-artha-

kAma-moksha) and the human effort to achieve these is itself due

to IshwarakR^ipa. Further to the post by shri Aravind, I tried to

locate a basis for this thinking in shri shankara's writings.

Surprisingly, as for my search, there is no direct statement by

shri shankara re IshwarakR^ipa (to attain knowledge of the SELF).

In all His writings, shri shankara's first verse for any text is

a benedictory verse in praise of God. In the text itself of the

prakaraNa granthAs (vivekachUDAmaNi, upadeshasahasrI etc), there

is no IshwarakR^ipa brought in. The guru was praised, and the

importance of the guru was stressed throughout, but not

IshwarakR^ipa (for SELF-Knowledge).

 

shri shankara is very particular in denouncing action as leading

to jnAnam. Thus, a human's saMkalpa to achieve jnAnam has only a

minimal role (shri shankara says action can purify the citta, but

not lead to jnAnam). So, if human effort and saMkalpa do not lead

to jnAnam, and IshwarakR^ipa is not mentioned, then what leads

to jnAnam? As shri Sunder Hattangadi mentioned (Shri Ramakrishna

and RamaNa maharshi's statement) that IshwarakR^ipa is always

there, (and we put our sails in the proper direction), then

IshwarakR^ipa is present always, everywhere and to everyone.

Brahman of course is present everywhere, and pervades everything.

It seems then, IshwarakR^ipa and Brahman have the same meaning

except IshwarakR^ipa is of lower reality than Brahman.

 

I tried to see if any upanishads specifically mentioned

IshwarakR^ipa. Again, there is no specific mention. Upanishads

also mention the importance of the guru and the guru's anugraha

for SELF-realization, but they do not mention IshwarakR^ipa.

However, there are, in Svetasvatara upanishad, two verses

(6.18 and 6.21) which can only be interpreted as referring to

saguNa brahman and grace.

 

6.18 says

 

yo brahmANaM vidadhAti pUrvaM, yo vaivedAMshca prahiNoti tasmai

taM ha devam Atma-buddhi-prakAsham mumukshur vai sharaNam aham prapadye

 

To Him, who, of old, creates BrahmA and who, verily, delivers to him

the vedas, to that God who is lighted by His own intelligence, do I,

eager for liberation, resort for refuge.

 

Particularly note sharaNam aham prapadye.

 

6.21 says

 

tapaH-prabhAvAd deva-prasAdAt ca, brahmA ha shvetasvataro'tha vidvAn

atyAshramibhyaH paramam pavitram, provAca samyag-R^iShi-saMgha-juShTam

 

By the power of austerity and the grace of God, the wise shvetAshvatara

in proper manner spoke about Brahman, the supreme, the pure, to the

advanced ascetics, what is pleasing to the company of seers.

 

All the upanishads stress on shraddha (faith) and I think it is

indirectly related to IshwarakR^ipa. My thanks to shri Aravind for

the question which made me to look through. Someone else might have

looked at the upanishads and shri shankara's works more carefully,

in which case I am interested in their results and views.

 

Now, my specific answers to shri Aravind's questions:

 

On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Aravind Krishna wrote:

> "Aravind Krishna" <seeksha

>

>

> Namaste,

> I would be extremely grateful if the list members can express their views on

> the following.

>

> . What is Shankara’s stand on Ishwara kR^ipA ?.

>

 

Please see above.

> . Does he deny that Ishwara has the capability to release a jIvan from

> samsaara?

>

 

Ishwara does not have the capability to release a jIvan from samsaara.

That, in my understanding, is against the advaita philosophy. Ishwara is

karmaphalapradA, but he cannot award moksha. Also, moksha is not a

karmaphala, and hence Ishwara cannot award moksha.

> . Does the popular advaitic definition of Ishwara (assuming he is saguNa

> brahma) ‘mAyA sahitam brahma’ have any shruti basis.

>

 

I think the shvetashvatara u. verses quoted above can be interpreted in

terms of saguna brahman. As per my quick glance, none of the other

principal upanishads refer to saguna brahman.

 

> . Ishwara kR^ipA my not be needed for a negation approach. But that doesn’t

> mean it is the only approach for mukti.

>

 

The only approach for mukti is jnAnam. What other approach is there?

> (A more Shruti oriented approach would add value.)

>

> bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

> Aravind

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

Shankara has given ample scope to Ishvara kR^ipaa in all his writings.

gurvaashhTakam is one such, whose refrain is:

 

manashchenna lagna.n gurora~Nghripadme

tataH ki.n tataH ki.n taaH ki.n tataH kim.h ..

[ but if the mind is not attached to the lotus feet of the Guru, what

thence.........]

 

The prelude to this ahhTakam is:

 

saakshaachchhriigururuupametya kR^ipayaa dR^iggocharaH san prabhuH

 

[The supreme Lord incarnates Himself, out of compassion, in the form of a

Preceptor, thereby comes within the range of perception......]

 

 

manisha panchakam is another work, wherein he accepts the Chandala as a

Preceptor for the advaita bhaava he shows.

 

 

In Gita, 18:56 he accepts Grace as the operating factor in moksha:

 

sarvakamaaNyapi sadaa kurvaaNo madvyapaashrayaH .

matprasaadaadavaapnoti shashvataM padamavyayam.h ..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Ram Chandran <chandran

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Ishwara kR^ipA

Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:16:30 -0500

 

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[Guest guest]

Hari Om Aravindji:

 

First, I also believe that "Ishwara exist" and I also believe that 'you' and

'exist.' It is my understanding that just believing is not sufficient to

understand and receive Ishwara kripa. I am quite sure that I am at a lower

order of reality than Ishwara. Since I am at a lower order of reality, I am

not able visualize Ishwara and Ishwara Kripa is beyond what I perceive of

Him. Please understand that our problem is our own notions which restrict us

to think and act beyond our physical and intellectual limitations. Shankara is

quite subtle with respect to Grace (Ishwara Kripa) and in Advaita, Grace is

quite essential in God realization.

 

Your point regarding shruti is quite important. First, shruti is at the

highest order of reality and is nothing but Brahman (TRUTH). This is not my

statement and this has been stated by all sages and saints from ancient to

modern times. Now I have a problem. How can I with a lower order of reality to

understand and state 'shruti vakyams'? If I do, I contradict shruti and

contradict the statements of sages and saints. Consequently, I have to believe

the words of Shankara and contemplate on the basis of his advaita philosophy.

I fully understand my limitations and once again, I have to seek "Ishwara

Kripa" to help me get over this paradox.

 

You are absolutely right in the statement that "the one and only pamANa that

can serve is shruti." It is also equally correct to say that my first goal

should be to grow spiritually to the highest level in order for me to

understand the message of shruti-Brahman-Truth!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

Aravind Krishna wrote:

>

> .........

> As you mentioned orders of reality, where does shruti speak about a higher

> and lower order of reality ?.

>

> Basically in our sanAtana dharma from time immemorial there were great

> mahAtmas and they have said a lot to guide us, but when it comes to making a

> conclusion, the one and only pamANa that can serve is shruti. We have to

> provide enough shruti vakyams for any statement.

>

> Namaste

> Aravind

>

[Guest guest]

HariH Om Aravindji:

 

You have forwarded an interesting definition of Ishwara as 'karma phala dhAta'

(provider of the fruits of our actions). We are also the gift of Ishwara

(Nature!). One of the most quoted verse (Chapter 2 Verse 47), states the

essence of Karma Yoga:

 

karmaNi eva adhikaaraste maa phaleshu gadaachana

maa karma phala hetuH bhuH maa sanghaH astu akarmaNi

 

We only have the “right” to conduct the action and certainly we have no

control over the results of the action. We should avoid using the “results” as

the motivating force of our action and free our attachment to inaction. The

facts will become crisp and clear if and only if we make efforts to understand

this verse carefully. We are the servants of Ishwara and we should understand

our ‘rights’ and also our ‘limitations.’ Ishwara has given us the skill and

power to conduct an

action of our choice. Strictly we do not have all choices but only few and

that with lots of restrictions. We can use our skills to set up the goals

for the action and should proceed to apply all our energy and skill to

accomplish those goals. Our intelligence, energy and knowledge do not give us

the authority over the results of the action. If we learn to accept that

'karma phala dhAta' is Ishwara, then it is possible to develop the attitude of

"selfless service" to the humanity. This is also the entire theme behind Karma

Yoga which is the path to reach the highest order of reality. Basically

Ishwara Kripa is necessary to develop the positive mental framework to conduct

duties with the yagna spirit.

 

What we really need is an attitude that of Shri Hanuman, the humble servant to

Shri Ram (Ishwara).

Shri Hanuman with strong body and great intellect was a humble servant to Shri

Ram. Strong conviction is an integral part of the realization of SELF. The

following example from a book illustrates how a person with strong conviction

can find a way to get out of the prison enclosed

by the body, mind and intellect. This example was originally stated by Sri

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. (Reference: Essentials of Hinduism, by

V.Krishnamurthy (1989), Narosa Publishing House, New Delhi. Page 136.)

 

Shri Ram asked Hanuman, What is your attitude toward me? How do you look upon,

think of and worship me?

 

Hanuman replied, Oh Lord:

 

When I am conscious of my body, when I feel I am this visible body and I have

the conviction that thou art the Lord and I am thy servant. Thou art to be

served and I am one to serve.

 

When I am conscious of my self as the individual self, one with the mind, the

intellect and the soul, I have the strong conviction that thou art the whole

and I am thy part.

 

When I remain in Samadhi, in the mood that I am the Pure SELF devoid of all

qualifying adjuncts, I have the conviction that I am also verily that which

Thou art. Thou and I are one, there is

no difference whatsoever between Thou and I.

 

The first part of Hanuman's answer stresses his attitude to serve (Karma

Yoga).

The second part focuses on the surrender attitude (Bhakti Yoga).

The final part of the answer confirms the inseparability or non-duality (Jnana

Yoga).

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Aravind Krishna wrote:

> My basic question was on the nature of Ishwara. The most popular definition

> is 'karma phala dhAta'. This is accepted by all schools.

>

> Is he just a karma pala dhAtA ?

>

> As you mentioned orders of reality, where does shruti speak about a higher

> and lower order of reality ?.

> .......

> Namaste

> Aravind

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Sunder Hattangadi wrote:

> "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh

>

> namaste,

> >

> **** Guru is NO OTHER than Ishvara! Is it not?

>

> .....mokshamuula.n guroH kR^ipaa .

>

>

> Guru Gita even advocates advaita bhaava in all circumstances except in the

> presence of the Guru!

>

> [...]

 

 

namaste.

 

I agree. Ishwara is guru and guru is Ishwara. Yet, there is a

difference.

 

Please note the following may be for intellectual analysis only

with possibly no contribution to AtmavidyA.

 

So, taking guru and Ishwara to be identical, we can say that

IshwarakR^ipa comes in the physical form of guru to show the way to

AtmavidyA. When we say things happen only by IshwarakR^ipa, that

is identical as saying AtmavidyA can only be attained by gurukR^ipa.

 

However, intellectually analyzing, there is a difference.

 

Ishwara is karmaphalapradA, the distributor of karmaphala.

Guru is not.

 

i.e., Brahman with attributes of Ishwara can award karmaphala,

the lower temporal level of Ananda.

 

Brahman with physical attributes of a guru can point the way

to AtmavidyA.

 

My question (and I assume shri Aravind's question is similar,)

still stands. Why is it not contained *explicitly* in shri

shankara's writings? (I have to read gurvAShTakam fully

whether it is contained therein. Any other reference are

most appreciated. Again, we all agree on the role of the

guru. What is discussed is the role of Ishwara.

>

> Regards,

>

> S.

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

---

[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

One of Shankara's exquisite poetic works is : prabodha-sudhaakara

 

(The Nectar-Ocean of Enlightenment.) publ. Samata Books, Chennai;

 

1st ed. 1984, reprint 1993. Eng. tr. by Samvid.

 

The last chapter, 19, (verses 227-257) is

 

" aanugraahikaprakaraNam.h" (On Divine Grace). The concluding verse is:

 

tadvadvrajataaM pu.nsaa.n dR^igvaa~Nmanasaamagocharo.api hariH .

kR^ipayaa phalatyakasmaatsatyaanandaamR^itena vipulena ..

 

Like that, Hari, though imperceptible to the sight, speech and mind of men

resorting to him, fructifies all of a sudden through the abundant nectar of

Real Bliss, due to compassion.

 

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Ram Chandran <chandran

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Ishwara kR^ipA

Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:08:12 -0500

 

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[Guest guest]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:17:59 Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

>Ishwara is karmaphalapradA, the distributor of karmaphala.

>Guru is not.

>i.e., Brahman with attributes of Ishwara can award karmaphala,

>the lower temporal level of Ananda.

>Brahman with physical attributes of a guru can point the way

>to AtmavidyA.

 

 

"Aneka Janma Samprapthe Karma Bandhavidhhahine.

Atma Jnana Pradhanena Tasmai Sri Gurave Namha "

 

Therefor Guru is the remover of Innumerable Karma Bandhas of innumerable

births.

Swami Vivekananda has also told that Guru in the form of incarnations such as

Sri Ramakrishna are "Kapala Mochanas" , literaly one who can erase what is

written on your forehead. In this sense if your desire is for liberation, then

Guru is a Icha Phala Dhata.

 

Regards,

Anand

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Ishwara Kripa can be easily understood from Ramanuja's Vishishtadwaita

Vedanta Philosophy point of view. Ishwara becomes the puppet master and we

the puppets will act according to His hand movements. In Advaita, Ishwara

Kripa is subtle and Ishwara instead of occupying a seat in Vaikunta, resides

at our heart. We become the instruments of God and fully guided by Him without

us knowing. When we realize the Divine presence in our heart we merge with

Ishwara and Ishwara merges with Brahman. At the Vyavaharika level of

awareness, Advaita and Vishistadwaita are similar and parallel. In

Vishishtadwaita, the reference to Ishwara is very direct where as in Advaita,

He is subtle. Both Vishishtadwaita and Advaita advocates selfless service to

the humanity; in Vishshtadwaita the service is attributed to Ishwara and in

Advaita, the service is conducted with the yagna spirit (duty for the sake of

duty without looking for the fruits of action).

 

The following article focuses on the purpose of Lord's Incarnations from the

Vishishtadwaita's point of view. It emphasizes "Ishwara Kripa" and Ishwara is

the player and we become the witness.

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

=======================================

Purpose of the Lord's Incarnations (An Article from the Religious Section of

The Hindu taken with permission: "Copyrights 2000 The Hindu & Tribeca

Internet Initiatives Inc.")

 

The scriptural texts state that the Supreme Being assumes various forms for

different purposes. The Lord Himself has during His incarnation as Krshn said

that the purpose of His manifestations is threefold: to protect the devout,

destroy those who harm His devotees and also to re-establish Dharm whenever

it is on the wane. But it is logical to question why the Almighty should

manifest in person when He who is omnipotent can accomplish what He wants by

His mere will.

 

Ramanuja in his Geeta Bhashya gives an interesting insight. He points out

that it is with the intention of being amidst His devotees that the Lord

assumes a personal form. He calls attention to the case of Gajendra, the

elephant-king, who was an exemplary devotee. It used to worship the Lord

daily with flowers and it was with this intention that it had gone to pluck

some flowers when it was caught by the crocodile.

 

When it was on the verge of death after a long drawn-out struggle it appealed

to the Lord for help. He appeared in person to save it, and the elephant

offered the flowers with great joy as it was not bothered about its life but

only anxious that its daily worship should not be interrupted. It is to such

unalloyed love and devotion that the Lord responds.

 

In his discourse Shri P. R. Rangarajachariar said, Vedant Desika in his

commentary, Tatparyachandrika, has mentioned the instances of Dhruva and

Prahlaad to substantiate this. Dhruv was blessed with the vision of the Lord

because of his steadfast devotion and in the case of Prahlaad who underwent

untold suffering He assumed the form of a man-lion to fulfil the conditions of

the boon granted to Hiranyakashipu. This underscores that the Lord would go

to any extent to protect His devotee.

 

The Ramaayan is a testament to the Almighty's compassion for humanity. It is

referred to as the ``Saranagati shastr'' for the Lord had promised in no

uncertain terms that He would grant succor to anyone who surrendered to Him.

Thus it continues to offer solace and hope to all that it is never too late to

reform one's ways. Two out of the Almighty's infinite auspicious qualities

have come to the fore in His incarnation as Raam. The first was His

quality of treating everyone with compassion. Even though Raam was the son of

an emperor He was accessible to all. He befriended Sugriva and the

hunter-chief, Guha, and endearingly acknowledged him as His brother. These

two qualities of the Almighty -- compassion and easy accessibility -- which

are more apparent in His incarnations are especially important for His

devotees; otherwise there is no hope for man's redemption. Not for

commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of

research and open discussion.

[Guest guest]

namaste,

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

advaitin

advaitin

Re: Ishwara kR^ipA

Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:17:59 -0330 (NST)

 

 

Any other reference are

most appreciated. Again, we all agree on the role of the

guru. What is discussed is the role of Ishwara.

 

 

*** Some references: Shankara does not make a distinction between Guru &

Ishvara, as far as I can make out. If anyone can cite a reference where this

is not so, these references would be invalid.

 

vivekachuuDaamaNi ; #s 31; 486; 517

 

sarva-vedaanta-siddhaantasaara-sa.ngraha: # 236; 310-317.

 

aparokshaanubhuuti: # 144

 

upadeshasaahasrii: II: XVII: 51-53, 89;

 

 

Regards,

 

S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

I thank Gummuluru Murthy for understanding my question in the right

perspective.

 

Though I did not want to express my view on this as I may pull others to my

understanding, one reference is irresistible,

>My reverence to shri shankara and His works have increased thousand-fold

>after scanning through His works again in the context of our present

>discussion. Shri shankara had many opportunities to say explicitly

>that Ishwara can deliver moksha. But He did not (as I see His writings)

>because in His way of looking at non-duality, there is only one that

>leads to moksha - that is jnAnam - that is removal of ignorance - that

>comes through cittashuddhi, extreme devotion to Knowledge

>(svasvarUpAnusandhAnam) and a guru that leads to It.

 

 

 

While dealing with ‘kAmitArtadA’, on of lalitA’s 300, Sri Shankara

beautifully explains,

 

‘A jIvan’s desire is ‘AptakAmAh’ the desire of Atman which he already has.

(BR.U 6-4-6). Then how can moksha become a desired object to be granted by

some one?.

 

In the state of samsAra Atman has his bliss masked . Hence he appears to be

in a state of not having it. He desires ‘let me have the eternal bliss or

liberation’, but his bliss is already there but with limitations. Ishwara

(lalitA here) dispels these limitations resulting in the illuminating

experience of bliss. In that way, Ishwara gives the desired object, namely

Atman’s realization.

 

Aravind

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Sunder Hattangadi wrote:

> "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh

>

> namaste,

>

>

> *** Some references: Shankara does not make a distinction between Guru &

> Ishvara, as far as I can make out. If anyone can cite a reference where this

> is not so, these references would be invalid.

>

> vivekachuuDaamaNi ; #s 31; 486; 517

>

> sarva-vedaanta-siddhaantasaara-sa.ngraha: # 236; 310-317.

>

> aparokshaanubhuuti: # 144

>

> upadeshasaahasrii: II: XVII: 51-53, 89;

>

>

> Regards,

>

> S.

>

 

namaste shri Sunder,

 

Thanks very much for the references. Before I touch on (some of)

the references, let me summarize our point(s) of discussion.

 

1. We agree Ishwara is karmaphalaprada, the awarder or distributor

of karmaphala. We do karma, and Ishwara distributes karmaphala

impartially.

 

2. We agree guru is the one that points to AtmavidyA and guru's

anugraha (grace) is required for AtmavidyA.

 

3. We are trying to understand what is IshwarakR^ipa and what is

its role in AtmavidyA and particularly what shri shankara and

the upanishads say about it.

 

4. You seem to be saying Ishwara is guru and guru is Ishwara in

*all* aspects. I am saying that it is Brahman with different

attributes and that Ishwara and guru have (slightly) different

roles to play.

 

As you said in one of your posts, IshwarakR^ipa is always there.

I would add, it (IshwarakR^ipa) is the same to everyone,

irrespective of the devotion of the jeeva toward Ishwara. If

Ishwara is not impartial and IshwarakR^ipa is not the same for

everyone, then, as shri Sadananda said at one time on this list,

Ishwara will not be Ishwara. So IshwarakR^ipa is the same for

everyone and it does not depend on our bhakti toward Ishwara.

 

Now, regarding the references you cited, I must say that the

verses in VivekacUDAmaNi do not deal with IshwarakR^ipa (as per my

understanding of these verses).

 

Verse 31 VC says that bhakti (translated as devotion) is the highest

among all means of liberation. But then, the second line of the verse

defines what bhakti is [bhaktirity abhidhIyate]. What is it? It is

sva-svarUpAnusandhAnam (to seek earnestly to know one's real nature).

That is bhakti. It does not say bhakti toward Ishwara. As you know

very well, ShivAnandalaharI verse 61 (which shri Ravi is correctly

so fond of) describes the evolution of bhakti and bhakti definition

in advaita may be taken as in VC31 (svasvarUpAnusandhAnam).

 

In VC 486 and 517, the realized disciple is praising and expressing

his devotion to the guru. As I see, IshwarakR^ipa is not involved

here either. Similarly, upadeshasahasrI verses deal with the guru and

not Ishwara. I do not have access at the moment to sarvavedAntasiddhAnta-

sAra sa.ngraha. I did not have an opportunity yet to see aparokshAnubhUti.

Your most recent post with additional references flashed on the screen

as I am typing this up. Thanks very much.

 

I am not convinced from the references yet that shri shankara is saying

that IshwarakR^ipa leads to AtmavidyA. GurukR^ipa does.

 

I apologize for persisting on this point. This is only for clarification

of my own views (and not to convert anyone to my thinking). I am looking

for people to point out any pitfalls in my logic. I see Ishwara as

karmaphalaprada, but I do not see Ishwara as mokshapradAta in advaita.

Ishwara as a guru can point out to moksha. This is what Ishwara as

DakshiNAmurthy and Ishwara as shri Shankara did and are doing. But

Ishwara as Ishwara cannot award moksha by IshwarakR^ipa.

 

My reverence to shri shankara and His works have increased thousand-fold

after scanning through His works again in the context of our present

discussion. Shri shankara had many opportunities to say explicitly

that Ishwara can deliver moksha. But He did not (as I see His writings)

because in His way of looking at non-duality, there is only one that

leads to moksha - that is jnAnam - that is removal of ignorance - that

comes through cittashuddhi, extreme devotion to Knowledge

(svasvarUpAnusandhAnam) and a guru that leads to It.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Anand Natarajan wrote:

> "Anand Natarajan" <anandn

>

>

>

> On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:17:59 Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

>

> >Ishwara is karmaphalapradA, the distributor of karmaphala.

> >Guru is not.

>

> >i.e., Brahman with attributes of Ishwara can award karmaphala,

> >the lower temporal level of Ananda.

>

> >Brahman with physical attributes of a guru can point the way

> >to AtmavidyA.

>

>

> "Aneka Janma Samprapthe Karma Bandhavidhhahine.

> Atma Jnana Pradhanena Tasmai Sri Gurave Namha "

>

> Therefor Guru is the remover of Innumerable Karma Bandhas of innumerable

> births.

> Swami Vivekananda has also told that Guru in the form of incarnations such as

Sri Ramakrishna are "Kapala Mochanas" , literaly one who can erase what is

written on your forehead. In this sense if your desire is for liberation, then

Guru is a Icha Phala Dhata.

>

> Regards,

> Anand

>

 

namaste.

 

I was referring to *karmaphalaprada*, the awarder of karmaphala.

As I see it, Guru is not meant for awarding karmaphala. For

karmabandhavimocana, yes, but not for karmaphalaprada.

 

Let me give an example. If we do a certain karma with a certain

phala in mind (like putrakAmeShTiyajna, for example), the awarder

of karmaphala is Ishwara and not the guru. This is also consistent

with the fact that moksha, unlike putrakAmeShTiyajna, is not a

karmaphala.

 

That is what I was trying to point out, the different roles of

Ishwara and the guru.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

---

[Guest guest]

Hi!

Acc. to UG Krishnamurthy, who says mind is a myth, the natural state of man is

the blissful state. In the normal state man is ignorant of his perfect blissful

state.

Interestingly what he says is the same as what Shankara said, without invoking

Ishwara Kripa.

-- Vis

 

Aravind Krishna wrote:

> "Aravind Krishna" <seeksha

>

> I thank Gummuluru Murthy for understanding my question in the right

> perspective.

>

> Though I did not want to express my view on this as I may pull others to my

> understanding, one reference is irresistible,

>

> >My reverence to shri shankara and His works have increased thousand-fold

> >after scanning through His works again in the context of our present

> >discussion. Shri shankara had many opportunities to say explicitly

> >that Ishwara can deliver moksha. But He did not (as I see His writings)

> >because in His way of looking at non-duality, there is only one that

> >leads to moksha - that is jnAnam - that is removal of ignorance - that

> >comes through cittashuddhi, extreme devotion to Knowledge

> >(svasvarUpAnusandhAnam) and a guru that leads to It.

>

> While dealing with ‘kAmitArtadA’, on of lalitA’s 300, Sri Shankara

> beautifully explains,

>

> ‘A jIvan’s desire is ‘AptakAmAh’ the desire of Atman which he already has.

> (BR.U 6-4-6). Then how can moksha become a desired object to be granted by

> some one?.

>

> In the state of samsAra Atman has his bliss masked . Hence he appears to be

> in a state of not having it. He desires ‘let me have the eternal bliss or

> liberation’, but his bliss is already there but with limitations. Ishwara

> (lalitA here) dispels these limitations resulting in the illuminating

> experience of bliss. In that way, Ishwara gives the desired object, namely

> Atman’s realization.

>

> Aravind

>

> ____

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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