Guest guest Posted February 14, 2000 Report Share Posted February 14, 2000 namaste, The dictionary definitions are: coward = one who lacks courage to meet danger or difficulty. courage = the quality of mind that enables one to encounter difficulties and danger withfirmness or withou fear. With these meanings, Swami's use of the word seems quite proper! " enlightened self-interest, svadharma , leading to a cowardly act " is like turning the language topsy-turvy![Do you REALLY mean this?] Sanjaya's view ' kR^ipayaa parayaavishhTo ' [ overcome by compassion] is in fact realised by Arjuna as ' kaarpaNyadoshha upahatasvabhaavaH ' [nature weakened by the taint of poverty of spirit] later on. Regards, s. >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy >advaitin >advaitin > Is Arjuna a coward ? >Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:07:00 -0330 (NST) > > > >namaste. > >Swami Chinmayanandaji, in his commentary on BG 1.31 and BG 1.34 >(as presented by shri Madhava), attributes cowardice to Arjuna. > > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 namaste. Swami Chinmayanandaji, in his commentary on BG 1.31 and BG 1.34 (as presented by shri Madhava), attributes cowardice to Arjuna. I like to pose a question here to members of the List "Is Arjuna a coward?" based on his behaviour on the battle field at that stage? As I understand, we call a person a coward if he runs away from duty in order to protect himself, his own life, or lives on his own side, so that under more favorable conditions (to him), he would not mind pursuing the war. That is, enlightned self-interest (swArdham) leads to a cowardly act. I am sure there are other ways in which cowardice can be defined. I did not get the impression, reading the BG verses till then or of the war preparations until then, that Arjuna is a coward. Arjuna's viShAda yoga has come about because he does not want to kill his friends and relatives on the opposite side. That is what was stated in the verses. That is not cowardice. What has aflicted Arjuna is a delusion that what he is about to do (killing friends and relatives on the opposite side) is a wrong thing to do. He is not covering up his desire to run away from the battle field with a trumped up noble cover of saying that he does not want to kill elders on the other side. He genuinely felt that killing the elders on the opposite side is a bad thing to do. His stated reasons and his genuine feelings are the same. And we need Krishna's gItA lessons to point out to Arjuna and to us that Arjuna's genuine feelings which Arjuna expressed, are wrong and are based on wrong presumptions. The reason I want to make this point is: Many of us, at various stages in our lives, have faced circumstances similar to Arjuna where genuinely we felt whether what we are doing is the right thing to do. Arjuna is not cheating himself in expressing those views and we have not either, when we faced similar doubts. On the other hand, a coward, as I see, is cheating him/herself, not being honest to him/herself. Any pro- and contray- points are appreciated. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 arjuna is not a coward---but being overtaken by confusion has come temporarily under cowardice---hence the lord also in the course of the gita--repeatedly reminds him as "o savyasachino bull among men" etc.etc... arjuna's vishada is also termed as a yoga---meaning this is also a very important step in moving towards the lord.......this comes to every sadhaka in his sadhana and brings about self-surrender....what arjuna experienced was the doubt that arises in a moderately advanced soul.... bhima did not get this doubt...yudhistra was already highly advanced---this is the doubt which must come to evry normal sincere man in course of evolution and then.....religion begins for him--rgds--devendra ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 Greetings Murthyji: We also have several choices - we could call Arjuna a coward, courageous, ignorant and even a Jnani. We can also develop intellectual frameworks to justify each of those statements. However, we do not want to second guess Swami Chinmayanandaji and let us gather the facts that support his contention. First, Arjuna had ample of opportunities to express his opinion about the consequences of the war before. He was coward to express to his opinion at the right moment to the right people. Second, Arjuna fought many wars and killed many and he was fully aware about the pitfalls of war. Finally, a warrior of Arjuna's calibre had no reason to show fear and grief on the battle field. Arjuna, the role model of Pandava's army failied to fulfill his responsibility when he threw the Kandip on the ground. A warrior who surrenders his/her weapons in front of the enemy army before the fight symbolizes an act of cowardice of the highest order! The higher our expectation on Arjuna's behavior, we are more likely to lable him as coward. We expect higher level of discipline and determination to fulfil his commitment to fight, win and restore 'Dharma.' An iota of action lower than heroic from Arjun qualifies him to be called a coward! Ram Chandran >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy > >namaste. > >Swami Chinmayanandaji, in his commentary on BG 1.31 and BG 1.34 >(as presented by shri Madhava), attributes cowardice to Arjuna. >I like to pose a question here to members of the List "Is Arjuna >a coward?" based on his behaviour on the battle field at that stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 Let me make some additional clarifications. Arjuna is not coward but his action at the battle field (throwing the Kandeep on the ground) is a cowardly action. At different points of time, we get labels attributed to our action. One who drinks is a drunkard, One who steals is a thief, One who cheats is a cheater, One who dreams is a dreamer, One who acts foolishly is a fool, One who wins is a winner, One who loses is a loser, One who throws the weapon in the battle field is a coward. These labels are attributed to the associated actions and our personalities change from time to time. All such labels are momentary expression of our judgement. All such judgements are always subject to error and that is our limitation. We have both the positive and negative sides of our personality and all these are our own creation due to ignorance. When we lose all judgemental personalities, we gain wisdom and our true divine personality emerges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 Arjuna was one of the greatest warriors in the battlefeld. He had no fear of warfare , or killing enemies or getting killed himself. However here, he could not bear the thought of losing his dear ones. Therefore he was a coward from an emotional point of view. In the spiritual path, one must be a hero physically, intellectually and emotionally. Arjuna was a hero in the first two. He was brillaint archer and he was also a good debater. However he was sensitive and weak in his emotions and shirked from duty when emotional pain is the result and hence he might be refered to as a coward. In the Gunatrayavibhaga yoga, Sri Krishna says , one who does not do his duty because of the pain of its outcome does a Rajasic sacrifise and I feel this was Arjuna's state of mind. Om, Anand A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 Greetings Anand: I fully agree with your excellent observation on the pitfalls of Arjuna's emotional attachments. This is an important point because detachment is one of the fundamental message of Gita. Vyasa beautifully portrayed the character of Arjuna to illustrate how a great warrior such as Arjuna was not able to overcome emotions. Interestingly, Arjuna who was overwhealmed with emotions did not lose his buddhi and he rightly approached Krishna for Guidance. He understood his helpless condition and he exhibited his determination to get back his divine personality. One part of his personality was responsible for throwing the arms on the ground. His divine personality came for his rescue and he courageously surrendered his surrendered his ego to the Divine. regards, >"Anand Natarajan" <anandn > >Arjuna was one of the greatest warriors in the battlefeld. He had no fear of warfare , or killing enemies or getting killed himself. However here, he could not bear the thought of losing his dear ones. Therefore he was a coward from an emotional point of view. In the spiritual path, one must be a hero physically, intellectually and emotionally. Arjuna was a hero in the first two. He was brillaint archer and he was also a good debater. However he was sensitive and weak in his emotions and shirked from duty when emotional pain is the result and hence he might be refered to as a coward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2000 Report Share Posted February 15, 2000 namaste, Most sincere apologis. Regards, s. >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy >advaitin >advaitin >Re: Is Arjuna a coward ? >Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:11:27 -0330 (NST) > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Sunder Hattangadi wrote: > > > "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh > > > > [...] > > > > " enlightened self-interest, svadharma , leading to a cowardly act " > > is like turning the language topsy-turvy![Do you REALLY mean this?] > > > > [...] > > > Regards, > > > > s. > > > >namaste. > >Obviously, my original post is mis-read by shri Sunder. > >I equated enlightened self-interest to svArtham, not svadharma. >I request to please refer to my post again. > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >-- > > > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Sunder Hattangadi wrote: > "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh > > [...] > > " enlightened self-interest, svadharma , leading to a cowardly act " > is like turning the language topsy-turvy![Do you REALLY mean this?] > > [...] > Regards, > > s. > namaste. Obviously, my original post is mis-read by shri Sunder. I equated enlightened self-interest to svArtham, not svadharma. I request to please refer to my post again. Regards Gummuluru Murthy -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 namaste. I am putting the following points, not that much to prolong the discussion, but to tie down what I think are some loose ends. I am thankful for all the comments on this question. I have already stated what my thinking is in my original post in this thread. In addition to what shri Devendra Vyas mentioned, I like to make these additional points. I do not think Arjuna is a coward, or he behaved cowardly in the early stages of the bhagavadgItA upadesha. He can be branded a coward if he acted in the following hypothetical ways (1 and 2). Please note these two cases (1 and 2 below) are hypothetical and did not take place. But for defining what I think is cowardice, I am putting the scenarios here. 1. Arjuna asks Krishna to bring the chariot in between the two armies. Krishna brings the chariot to in front of where BhIShma, Drona and other great kaurava warriors are. Arjuna is afraid at seeing this mighty kaurava army. He pleads to Krishna " Krishna, the kaurava army is mighty. They can kill me and my brothers. I do not have any desire for kingdom. If I and my brothers are alive, we can live in the forests and get on with this life. Please take me away from the war. I am afraid." 2. When Krishna brings (Arjuna's) chariot to in front of BhIShma, Drona and other kaurava warriors. After seeing the mighty kaurava army, Arjuna would sense that pANDava army is going to get defeated by the kauravas and that thre is every liklihood that he and his brothers would be killed by the kauravas. So, he does not want to pursue the war. But, as a warrior of repute, he cannot run away from the battle field. So, he devises an ingenious scheme whereby he couches his main desire (not to fight the war because he is afraid he may loose) in terms of what appears to be a noble gesture, that he does not want to kill the kauravas. So, he pleads with Krishna that he (Arjuna) would not fight the war. The above two are hypothetical situations and did not take place. In both these situations, we can brand Arjuna a coward. Further anyone in Arjuna's situation in cases 1 and 2 is not fit to receive BG upadesha. BG is not meant for treating such cases either. BG is at a much higher plane. What actually happened on that battlefield is: Arjuna came down to the battlefield to fight. But then, after seeing his teacher, grandfather, cousins and friends on the other side, he had a genuine doubt "Is it his dharma to fight the war and kill all these relatives and friends?" That is a much higher and subtler doubt than the cowardice of situations 1 and 2 above. Please note that in all of Arjuna's sayings, the safety of his and his brothers and the danger that they may die is never there in his words. He never expressed any doubt that he may loose the war. His main concern is: is it his dharma to kill all the friends and relatives on the other side? Arjuna's doubt is a very genuine doubt which requires the full gItA to clarify. We, the ordinary mortals, cannot say in a unified voice "Arjuna, what you are doing is wrong, you are a coward, you should fight.". If we say the above, then we do not need gItA- upadesha. It is only the all-learned like Krishna, who sees what is Arjuna's dharma. You may recall, Krishna addressing Arjuna by various names throughout bhagavadgItA. Many commentators have found the appropriateness of each name at that juncture of Krishna's teaching. Krishna even calls Arjuna "klaibya" to prick and awaken manliness in Arjuna. But, as I recall, Krishna never called Arjuna, a bhIra, a coward. That speaks volumes. Further, as shri Devendra Vyas said, Krishna did not teach bhagavadgItA to anyone else. He chose Arjuna to receive the upadesha. That is, in Krishna's estimate, Arjuna is ripe for receiving the lesson. Certainly, Krishna did not choose a coward for receiving this great teaching. Arjuna's doubt is a much subtler one than cowardice. Arjuna's problem can be stated simply as: If he(Arjuna) kills his own friends and relatives and elders, is he not losing both the present world and the future worlds ? The feeling that I am the killer; the feeling that I am killing my friends, relatives and elders; the feeling that I will be loosing both the present world and the future worlds by these killings; this is the crux of Arjuna's doubt. That is a far cry from Arjuna being a coward. Arjuna's doubt is a very subtle doubt. Thus branding Arjuna as a coward, and an ordinary human is missing the eligibility criteria for bhagavdgItA altogether. That is the way I understood Arjuna viShAdayoga. Regards Gummuluru Murthy -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 > > Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy] > > I do not think Arjuna is a coward, or he behaved cowardly in > the early stages of the bhagavadgItA upadesha. He can be branded > Arjuna's doubt is a much subtler one than cowardice. Arjuna's > problem can be stated simply as: If he(Arjuna) kills his > own friends and relatives and elders, is he not losing both > the present world and the future worlds ? The feeling that > I am the killer; the feeling that I am killing my friends, > relatives and elders; the feeling that I will be loosing > both the present world and the future worlds by these > killings; this is the crux of Arjuna's doubt. That is a > far cry from Arjuna being a coward. Arjuna's doubt is a > very subtle doubt. Thus branding Arjuna as a coward, and > an ordinary human is missing the eligibility criteria for > bhagavdgItA altogether. That is the way I understood > Arjuna viShAdayoga. > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy Dear Murthygaru, I beg to disagree. There is a saying "Is there a problem? No problem. Just keep postponing them as long as you can. One day, death will arrive, and the problems that are bothering you will go away automatically". People, who think in this kind of manner, are branded as suicide maniacs. To make it simple, they can't just face problems! A problem can be of two kinds, (1) That which you face because of the external forces e.g. Earth quakes, war, floods etcetera... (2) That which you face as a consequence of your own actions. e.g. Telling lies, Killing, Stealing. In my opinion, Arjuna falls in to the second category. He has faced a problem, right in the battle field. Actually, why is he there at all? Because of his own actions. He wanted to fight the war, gathered a lot of armour, very well prepared for a war. Had Arjuna wanted *not* to fight, he had a choice of forgetting the war in the first place. He could have simply told his eldest brother Dhramaraja to forget about all that. But he didn't. He knew, from the beginning that he has to face Bhishma and Drona in the battlefield. This he mentions at various places even before war, in Mahabharata. Now that Arjuna is in the battlefield, he went and faced his own kith and kin. Then he got a problem, the problem is the *affection* that he has towards *his* people. Remember the word "dRshTvEmam *sva*janam Krishna.." Arjuna used the word "My own". That *My own* is his problem. That identification, which was hidden in the abyss of his heart, came up --- only because of thinking of the aftermath of the war. Arjuna thought that he had a choice (1) To fight (2) Not to fight. In deed, he falsely thought that *by* not fighting he will allow everybody to live. He thought it is a wise decision. At the same time, his intellect must be pricking him about taking a U turn at the right moment! This is what was Arjuna's problem. To fight or not to fight. It was a right problem which arouse in the wrong time. That is why Arjuna --- in stead of facing his own inner problem; which is generated as a consequence of his own actions --- did choose to run away. He just wanted to run away from his problem, so that he need not think of it again. NOW that is what I consider as a cowardice! There are people who, when face problems at their household, run away and take Sanyasa! There are also the people who, when face problems at their household, try to kill themselves. Both are cowards, who can't just face their problems. They are cowards! Arjuna is no better than them. HERE IS A STORY: (Draw your own conclusions :-)) There was a cunning fox which had fallen short of money. So it went and asked the Earth "Oh Earth, Oh Earth, could you please loan me one Dollar?" Earth replied: "Oh, Fox I don't mind loaning you money.. But you should tell me on when could you repay the loan?" Fox said: "Oh Earth, I am so grateful for your kind consideration. I shall return back your money, along with interest by tomorrow morning." Earth agreed for this and gave a Dollar to the Fox as a loan. Fox felt very happy. It spent all that money by evening. In the evening, the Fox started thinking, "why should I repay the money back to Earth. Earth has got a lot of money --- so even if I don't pay it back, Earth will not fall short of money." Fox has decided not to repay the money back to Earth. It wanted to hide from Earth. Since it knows that the Earth will ask back the money in the Morning. It left its Foxhole in the night and started running. It ran... It ran... And it ran so far and became tired. By the time it was dawn it ran few hundred kilometres. It stopped there and thought "Lo! Now the Earth can not come this far to ask back the money..." But the Earth came there and asked "Oh Fox, why are you running where is my money?" Listening to this Fox immediately started running away again. Thinking of not to pay the money back to Earth. It ran... It ran... And it ran so far and became tired. By the time it was noon it ran again few hundred kilometres. It stopped there and thought "Lo! Now the Earth can not come this far to ask back the money..." But the Earth came there and asked "Oh Fox, why are you running where is my money?" Like this Fox ran and ran finally because of the fatigue, it puked blood and fell dead.... Poor thing never realized that it took loan from the very same Earth which is all pervading, where could it run away? Where ever it runs it is still on the Earth... Isn't it :-) Regards, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 Greetings Murthyji: Your enthusiastic support for Arjuna's cause is quite refreshing. You have correctly constructed several logical scenarios in support of your contentions. Most of the discussants will agree that Arjuna is not coward. The reference was specifically with respect to one of his action - throwing the Kandeep on the ground. The character of a person can never be decided by one action based on personal beliefs and perceptions. It is quite conceivable to develop alternative frameworks by which one can justify calling Arjuna's action as a cowardly action. In real life, when our child acts foolishly, we don't hesitate to call our child a fool. On most of the other occasions, we happily tell our friends that our child is a 'Brahaspathi'(most intelligent). When Swami Chinmayanandaji called Arjuna a coward, he really didn't mean (you are well aware about this fact). In the rest of the chapters, he never hesitated to praise him for his intelligence and bravery. The reason that he called him a coward is to get the attention of the audience. His entire commentary is based on his lectures in front of the audience. Those who have attended his discourses know his gifted talent in keeping the attention of his audience. I fully agree with your concluding comments and beatutiful observations. I am looking forward to more of your thoughtful questions and observations during the rest of Gita Satsang. regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Ram Chandran wrote: > "Ram Chandran" <chandran > > Greetings Murthyji: > > Your enthusiastic support for Arjuna's cause is quite refreshing. You have correctly constructed several logical scenarios in support of your contentions. > namaste shri Ram Chandran, As usual, you have a beautiful way of bringing the discussion into focus. I am not supporting Arjuna's cause or Arjuna's argument that he should not fight. I am trying to bring Arjuna's main question into focus. Of course, his question is based on the delusion. As I understand, his delusion (for which gItA is the answer) is the following: 1. that he (Arjuna) is the doer of the actions (that is, he is going to be the killer of the friends and relatives 2. that he (Arjuna) is the enjoyer of the fruits of actions (that is, by doing the killings, he is going to reap the benefits or otherwise in the present world and the future worlds for his actions) That is, there is an ego problem aflicting Arjuna, for which gItA is the answer. 3. The other delusion from which Arjuna is suffering is the recognition of friends and relatives on the enemy side (which made him re-think his responsibilities). It implies, if the kaurava side does not have his friends and relatives, he would have no compulsion against the war. That is, Arjuna is seeing some as relatives and friends and some as enemy. gItA has an answer to this delusion as well. I want to highlight these delusions of Arjuna, but somehow, it seems, the discussion went on whether or not Arjuna is a coward. Arjuna's viShAdayoga arises out of his delusions of the ego-problem, and not out of whether he is a courageous or a cowardly person. > > When Swami Chinmayanandaji called Arjuna a coward, he really didn't mean (you are well aware about this fact). In the rest of the chapters, he never hesitated to praise him for his intelligence and bravery. The reason that he called him a coward is to get the attention of the audience. His entire commentary is based on his lectures in front of the audience. Those who have attended his discourses know his gifted talent in keeping the attention of his audience. > It was never my intention to find fault in swami Chinmayanandaji's commentary. As my previous posts indicate, I have the highest respect and regard for swamiji's overall efforts on uplifting spirituality in humans. I was in the audience for many of his lectures and his lectures are certainly spell-binding. If my comments came up as a criticism or slighting of swamiji's efforts, my humble apologies. > I fully agree with your concluding comments and beatutiful observations. I am looking forward to more of your thoughtful questions and observations during the rest of Gita Satsang. > > regards, > > Ram Chandran > Regards Gummuluru Murthy --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2000 Report Share Posted February 16, 2000 I find Sri Murthyji's points to be compelling, especially the following observation he makes. "You may recall, Krishna addressing Arjuna by various names throughout bhagavadgItA. Many commentators have found the appropriateness of each name at that juncture of Krishna's teaching. Krishna even calls Arjuna "klaibya" to prick and awaken manliness in Arjuna. But, as I recall, Krishna never called Arjuna, a bhIra, a coward. That speaks volumes." I do not think Murhyji is slighting other commentaries and interpretations but simply giving us his informed and well reasoned opinion on the matter. Love Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2000 Report Share Posted February 17, 2000 yes sir--thank you for getting me right---arjuna and krishna were the nar-narayana pair --what more to say..... equating in the foll way-- drunk ---drunkard one who flees---coward is taking a too simplistic view of the matter---rgds--devendra i would like to repeat myself---each chapter of the gita is a yoga--let us remember that..... and >awaken manliness in Arjuna. But, as I recall, Krishna never >called Arjuna, a bhIra, a coward. That speaks volumes. > >Further, as shri Devendra Vyas said, Krishna did not teach >bhagavadgItA to anyone else. He chose Arjuna to receive the >upadesha. That is, in Krishna's estimate, Arjuna is ripe for >receiving the lesson. Certainly, Krishna did not choose a >coward for receiving this great teaching. > >Arjuna's doubt is a much subtler one than cowardice. Arjuna's >problem can be stated simply as: If he(Arjuna) kills his >own friends and relatives and elders, is he not losing both >the present world and the future worlds ? The feeling that >I am the killer; the feeling that I am killing my friends, >relatives and elders; the feeling that I will be loosing >both the present world and the future worlds by these >killings; this is the crux of Arjuna's doubt. That is a >far cry from Arjuna being a coward. Arjuna's doubt is a >very subtle doubt. Thus branding Arjuna as a coward, and >an ordinary human is missing the eligibility criteria for >bhagavdgItA altogether. That is the way I understood >Arjuna viShAdayoga. > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >-- > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2000 Report Share Posted February 17, 2000 SEE --WE CAN'T CALL a person of arjuna's calibre an outright coward... gummulurji is right-- it is at a much subtler level--- furthermore thou it is true that arjuna throws the gandiva and says he will not fight---basically he is not asking krishna;;;"whether to fight or not fight" he says "my mind is in confusion about my duty---you tell me wherein lies my welfare"---arjuna's cowardice is a symptom of a deeper malaise -----in the 1st chp--arjuna says of what is a kingdom to me---he has enjoyment as his goal----hence he is confused---he has reached a stage of evolution where he is begining to tire of the finite-----then the lord shows;;;;"my dear boy...enjoyment can never be the goal --is not the goal---the goal is the infinite " and then once he gets the proper knowledge & the same(?) arjuna stands once again and fights like a loin........like i said this doubt comes to every soul once----is this worth it?? what is life???etc...etc...and then the spiritual journey begins........gita is nothing but the spiritual saga of a sadhaka from start to end---rgds--dev >"Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava >advaitin >advaitin >RE: Is Arjuna a coward ? >Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:41:38 +0300 > >"Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2000 Report Share Posted February 17, 2000 Devendra Vyas <dev_vyas74 wrote: "Devendra Vyas" <dev_vyas74 yes sir--thank you for getting me right---arjuna and krishna were the nar-narayana pair --what more to say..... equating in the foll way-- drunk ---drunkard one who flees---coward is taking a too simplistic view of the matter---rgds--devendra i would like to repeat myself---each chapter of the gita is a yoga--let us remember that..... and >awaken manliness in Arjuna. But, as I recall, Krishna never >called Arjuna, a bhIra, a coward. That speaks volumes. > >Further, as shri Devendra Vyas said, Krishna did not teach >bhagavadgItA to anyone else. He chose Arjuna to receive the >upadesha. That is, in Krishna's estimate, Arjuna is ripe for >receiving the lesson. Certainly, Krishna did not choose a >coward for receiving this great teaching. > >Arjuna's doubt is a much subtler one than cowardice. Arjuna's >problem can be stated simply as: If he(Arjuna) kills his >own friends and relatives and elders, is he not losing both >the present world and the future worlds ? The feeling that >I am the killer; the feeling that I am killing my friends, >relatives and elders; the feeling that I will be loosing >both the present world and the future worlds by these >killings; this is the crux of Arjuna's doubt. That is a >far cry from Arjuna being a coward. Arjuna's doubt is a >very subtle doubt. Thus branding Arjuna as a coward, and >an ordinary human is missing the eligibility criteria for >bhagavdgItA altogether. That is the way I understood >Arjuna viShAdayoga. > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >-- >Arjuna represents the typical student who is fit for Geeta teaching.He was in Vishada i.e. Visha + ada as if he ate poison. If the world of objects appear like poison for any reason, and in that condition, if he turns to the God within for succour, he becomes surely eligible to get the teachng from the Lord. Arjuna describes his own condition in 19 slokas in the first chapter. If we examine their essence, we can see that the first set of symptons were sweating, mouth becoming dry, trembling of the body, unable to stand are signs of pure terror. Next is the consideration for his relatives. It is attachment. Next comes the idea that when all the men die, old people, women and chilren remain without guidance and the socity will become corrupt. Next comes the idea of adharma. The dead ancestors will not receive their oblations and the man who causes it falls into hell. Another idea is by killing even the evil doers one gets only sin. Final phase is where he offers non-violent resistence. Thus his character is purposely made so complex to indicate to us that any one for any reason, in sorrow turn to the Lord, the teaching of the Lord will be avaialbel to him. Please click above to support our sponsor Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ Contact Email Address: advaitins Talk to your friends online with Messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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