Guest guest Posted February 17, 2000 Report Share Posted February 17, 2000 Patrick Kenny 13th Feb, believes he can train his mind to see the Self in all beings and all beings in the Self. This was one of the exercises we had to do in the School. In retrospect, I think that what I actually succeeded in doing was deluding myself that I was seeing others in a different way. But I think that what was achieved was simply an increase in tolerance and empathy - certainly valuable but equally definitely not 'seeing the Self'. You say that you won't be able to see the Self when you are angry, frustrated etc. I agree. But is there ever a time when our perceptions are not coloured by some vestige of emotion; if not a negative, then an equally distorting positive one? You suggest that this attitude of mind can be brought about by repeatedly reading the Gita. Again, I agree that you can make it a habit that the 'idea' comes to mind whenever you meet someone new (more difficult with your partner, say!) but does this guarantee the 'real thing' or merely the change in attitude already mentioned? Please note I am not suggesting the Gita is wrong. On the contrary I fully support it. However, I think the practice is a little more difficult than you suggest. Sunder Hattangadi 13th Feb, compares the paradoxes of the scriptures with Zen koans. An interesting idea! However, is it not more likely that they are usually just emphasising the ineffability? The Self is neither one thing nor another, otherwise it would be limited; yet it must also be both, for the same reason. Basically it is impossible to make definite statements about 'attributes' without ending in paradox (or nonsense!). Anand Natarajan 13th Feb, made some profound observations on the statement "The mind is the unrealised Atman". Not sure I understand or agree with this statement on its own but Anand's comments were excellent! Worth repeating - "Due to our ignorance, we perceive the Atman has having forms and that is the mind. When the Sun of knowledge dawns , the same mind will evaporate its forms and what remains is THAT." Vasant Godbole's message of the 13th. seemed to end prematurely (transmission error?) and I did not understand what was being said - "In Indian philosophy a mind is conceived as an instrument psycholgy" Sunder provided an excellent URL - http://www.hinduism.co.za/newpage21.htm - I don't believe I have looked here before, or at least not in the past couple of years. There appear to be many compilations and commentaries on specified issues such as maya, creation, reality, etc. Thanks indeed - I shall read a number of these! Finally, to bring me up to date at last, I loved Vasant Godbole's comparison of (Brahman:human consciousness) to (Black Hole:Black paint)! You say ahaMkAra is tamasic but I don't really see this as an organ of the mind more of a process - the process of identification. As Ramakrishna said, it is like an onion, you peel away the layers and find that there is not actually anything in the middle after all. Also, buddhi is always there, whether awakened or not. As you say it is the means by which we may intellectually appreciate the Self and it only operates efficiently under sattvic conditions. I thought sattva transmitted consciousness though, not reflected? Perhaps Verner Moore could clarify since this is one of the things the school I attended used to talk about. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 >Vasant G Godbole <vashug >advaitin >advaitin >Re: Responses to Mind and Self - Part 3 >Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:53:06 -0800 > The Jeeva-mind metaphor as reflection of self-luminous Atman is, I >think, Pratibimbavad hinted at by Shankar but elaborated by later >Vivarana school of Advaitins. Namaste, shvetashvatara upanishhat.h: II:14 yathaiva bimbaM mR^idayo.apaliptaM tejomayaM bhraajate tatsudhaantam.h . tadvaatmatattvaM prasamiikshya dehii ekaH kR^itaartho bhavate viitashokaH .. Even as a mirror stained by dust shines brightly when it has been cleaned, , so the embodied one when he has seen the real nature of the Self becomes integrated, of fulfilled purpose, and freed from sorrow. tr. S. Radhakrishnan The Principal Upanishads. Regards, s. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Namaste, Other shruti references to the mirror/reflection metaphor are: Brihadaranyaka II:i:9 & III:ix:15 Chhandogya VIII:vii:4 Katha II:iii:5 Kaushitaki IV:2 & 11 Also Gita: 3:38 Regards, s. >Vasant G Godbole <vashug >advaitin >advaitin >Re: Responses to Mind and Self - Part 3 >Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:53:06 -0800 > The Jeeva-mind metaphor as reflection of self-luminous Atman is, I >think, Pratibimbavad hinted at by Shankar but elaborated by later >Vivarana school of Advaitins. >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 If Brahman and Atman is the only Reality , the God, Prakruti and Jeeva have contrived to creat a transient physical world of space-time continuam and quantum process and a human world of society,culture and knowledge.Prakruti and Jeeva interdependantly developed tools of identity(ahankar) and differetiation(dvaita intellect) for prediction and control of physical environ for its survival.If Dhi is differentiating,analytical ,pattern recognising intellect, buddhi is budh (conscious, enlightened) dhi(intellect) an intuitive unitive consciusness also called sambodhi or samadhi. Using a quantom metaphor the antaHkaran has a necleus of ahamkar( heavy like proton) with dhi,chit and manas electrons(mentons?) revolving in the orbits of satva,raja and tamas. In the fusion process of atmasakshatkar the released energy of realised christs,budhas,shankars,ramkrishnas may benefit the worlds but ultimately it is headed to the potentiality of Brahman.You may call it Sat-Chit-Anand, Nirvan,Divine Father, Divine Mother or Potentia.They are all metaphors partially true but 'Neti Neti'. Atmashudhi will enable a human being to realise Atman only when the nuclear furnace( is that the 'tapa' of sages?) dissolves the four mentons of antahkaran.But this at gross level.At quantum level the unique event of realisation may occur next moment or may take thousand years of atmashudhi. But this is all talk.As the Upnishadic Seers say 'yato vacha nivartante aprapya manasaa saha' . Or as Nike says it in tennis-shoe commercial 'Just do it' The Jeeva-mind metaphor as reflection of self-luminous Atman is, I think, Pratibimbavad hinted at by Shankar but elaborated by later Vivarana school of Advaitins. ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 ayi sanskrutanuragiNaH JanaaH, kshamyantaam maam sanskruten kinchit likhitavantam atmaamanasoH parasparayoh sambandham adhikrutya. svaprakaashmat brhama tathai cha atmaa.param prakrutyaadivashaat upaadhihatam antahkaraNachatusham maya-adnyaankaaraNaat.manasaH chaitanyam tathaakathitam atmanaH pratibimbatven pratibhaati.iti. ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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