Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Greetings Dennis, > Patrick Kenny 13th Feb, believes he can train his mind to see the Self in > all beings and all beings in the Self. This was one of the exercises we had > to do in the School. In retrospect, I think that what I actually succeeded > in doing was deluding myself that I was seeing others in a different way. > But I think that what was achieved was simply an increase in tolerance and > empathy - certainly valuable but equally definitely not 'seeing the Self'. I think I should explain that my own interest in the Hindu scriptures is not in any sense mystical and I am not personally interested in elightenment experiences, near death experiences, out of body experiences or the like. I love the Gita more than any other scripture because its concern is with how best to live life here and now in this world and not in liberation understood as liberation *from* this world. (There is no sign in the Gita of the strain of world-negation running through much of the Upanishads and Shankara.) I am generally a hard-headed rationalist (and not all inclined to apologize for that fact). As I understand it is in the nature of the human mind to think; I'm not personally interested in suppressing thought in the hope that its absence will pave the way for some fleeting direct apprehension of reality but I really am interested in learning how to think better because my experience is that thought or intellect or buddhi is the key to the type of 'seeing' that Arjuna experiences when he sees the manifestation of the World Form (Chapter 11). William Blake put it this way: What, it will be questioned, when you see the sun rise do you not see a round disk much like a guinea [a gold coin]? Oh no. I see an innumerable company of the heavenly host singing Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. Blake, an artist as well as a poet, said that he saw *through* the eye not with it---seeing is not given a priori rather it is a faculty that is developed through the intellect. By developing the intellect it is possible to see the Self habitually and I personally do not ever expect to see the Self by any other means (eg a sudden Zen-like enlightenment). > You say that you won't be able to see the Self when you are angry, > frustrated etc. I agree. But is there ever a time when our perceptions are > not coloured by some vestige of emotion; if not a negative, then an equally > distorting positive one? We all agree that the question of the role played by our passions in our spiritual lives is of fundamental importance. For me the best solution to this (better even than the Gita) is provided by Spinoza's _Ethics_; it consists in training our minds to see our emotions and passions (*all* of them, including the most base) as 'being in God and following from the necessity of the Divine nature'. Again it's a matter of habitual *seeing* and the seeing grows out of intellect or buddhi. Regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 A few small comments are included in message below. Prabhakar Chitrapu. > > Patrick Kenny [sMTP:pkenny] > Friday, February 18, 2000 10:28 AM > advaitin > Mind and Self > > Patrick Kenny <pkenny > > Greetings Dennis, > > > Patrick Kenny 13th Feb, believes he can train his mind to see the Self > in > > all beings and all beings in the Self. This was one of the exercises we > had > > to do in the School. In retrospect, I think that what I actually > succeeded > > in doing was deluding myself that I was seeing others in a different > way. > > But I think that what was achieved was simply an increase in tolerance > and > > empathy - certainly valuable but equally definitely not 'seeing the > Self'. > > > I think I should explain that my own > interest in the Hindu scriptures is not > in any sense mystical and I am not > personally interested in elightenment > experiences, near death experiences, out > of body experiences or the like. I love > the Gita more than any other scripture > because its concern is with how best to > live life here and now in this world and > not in liberation understood as > liberation *from* this world. > [Chitrapu, Prabhakar] Good and respectable attitude. > (There is > no sign in the Gita of the strain of > world-negation running through much of > the Upanishads and Shankara.) I am > generally a hard-headed rationalist (and > not all inclined to apologize for that > fact). > > As I understand it is in the nature of > the human mind to think; I'm not > personally interested in suppressing > thought in the hope that its absence > will pave the way for some fleeting > direct apprehension of reality but I > really am interested in learning how to > think better because my experience is > that thought or intellect or buddhi is > the key to the > type of 'seeing' that Arjuna experiences > when he sees the manifestation of the > World Form (Chapter 11). > [Chitrapu, Prabhakar] In addition to wanting to 'learn to think better', I think it is also good to want to learn to understand the 'origins' of thought - and the nature of the 'thinker', which may be the same as the previous thing said in dofferent words. In my use of the words, 'Origins' of thought, I would also include 'motivations' and 'expectations' that drive thought. > > William Blake > put it this way: > > What, it will be questioned, when you > see the sun rise do you not see a round > disk much like a guinea [a gold coin]? > Oh no. I see an innumerable company of > the heavenly host singing Holy, Holy, > Holy is the Lord God Almighty. > > Blake, an artist as well as a poet, said > that he saw *through* the eye not with > it---seeing is not given a priori rather > it is a faculty that is developed > through the intellect. By developing the > intellect it is possible to see the Self > habitually and I personally do not ever > expect to see the Self by any other > means (eg a sudden Zen-like > enlightenment). > > > You say that you won't be able to see the Self when you are angry, > > frustrated etc. I agree. But is there ever a time when our perceptions > are > > not coloured by some vestige of emotion; if not a negative, then an > equally > > distorting positive one? > > We all agree that the question of the > role played by our passions in our > spiritual lives is of fundamental > importance. > For me the best solution to this (better > even than the Gita) is provided by > Spinoza's _Ethics_; it consists in > training our minds to see our emotions > and passions (*all* of them, including > the most base) as 'being in God and > following from the necessity of the > Divine nature'. Again it's a matter of > habitual *seeing* and the seeing grows > out of intellect or buddhi. > > Regards, > > Patrick > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9 percent > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative4 ">Click Here</a> > > ------ > > Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy > focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives > are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ Contact Email > Address: advaitins > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Dear Patrick: I like your refreshing statement: "I love the Gita more than any other scripture because its concern is with how best to live life here and now in this world and not in liberation understood as liberation *from* this world." Mahatma Gandhiji felt the same way! Gandhiji once said, "The only change that the world need is you!" There is a similar statement in one of the Upanishads, "We can't change the world, we should accept the world as given by changing our attitude!" The dialog between Arjuna and Krishna illustrates that thinking is an integral part of human life. We are accustomed to making too many choices - to think, to eat, to talk and to live. The path of Gita is reprogramming our life style to narrow down our choices. Eventually the Yogi within us emerge whose habits and thoughts are free from choices and conflicts. The transformed Yogi acts spontaenously without fear and guilt. Lord Krishna describes (defines)the characteristics of the perfect Yogi beautifully in Chapter 2, verses 56 to 72. The rest of the Gita explains how to become a perfect yogi! regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Greetings Ram, > > I like your refreshing statement: "I > love the Gita > more than any other scripture because > its concern is > with how best to live life here and > now in this world > and not in liberation understood as > liberation *from* > this world." Mahatma Gandhiji felt the > same way! > Gandhiji once said, "The only change > that the world > need is you!" There is a similar > statement in one of > the Upanishads, "We can't change the > world, we should > accept the world as given by changing > our attitude!" I'm pleased that you agree with this. I really do think that heaven is this world seen under the form of eternity, or as Arjuna sees it in Chapter 11. But I also think that this world is *us* with our ordinary fallible human natures, choices, conflicts, doubts, confusion etc etc. > Eventually the Yogi within us > emerge whose > habits and thoughts are free from > choices and > conflicts. Regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Greetings Patrick: Different human beings look at the world differently. Most of us do think that "this world is 'us' with our ordinary fallible human natures, choices, conflicts, doubts, confusion etc." But a Perfect Yogi is able to ignore the choices, conflicts, doubts, confusions, etc. In Chapter 2, Verses 56 to 72, Krishna describes the characteristics beautifully. I refer you to my homepage URL for a complete discussion. http://www.geocities.com/advaitins/Sthitaprajna.html Verse 67 is a beautiful poem which describes how a Perfect Yogi contols his/her mind: indriyanam hi caratam yan mano 'nuvidhiyate tad asya harati prajnam vayur navam ivambhasi For the mind which follows in the wake of the wandering senses, carries away one's discrimination, as the wind carries away a boat on the waters. This verse illustrates the destructive power of the rowing senses. What will happen to a ship without the navigator on the deep sea? Powerful wind that carries the ship will cause the ship to capsize. Similarly, the sense organs without any control will make life helpless and purposeless. Ships in deep seas are subject to unexpected dangers from the strong currents of the wind. Human lives without any control on senses are likely to lose peace by the formidable influence of sensual pleasures. Gita stresses the important role of the 'discriminating intelligence' in the world of conflicts, choices, etc. With constant awareness (disciplined mind), we can navigate and cross the ocean of life. regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 > > Different human beings look at the > world differently. > Most of us do think that "this world > is 'us' with our > ordinary fallible human natures, > choices, conflicts, > doubts, confusion etc." But a > Perfect Yogi is able > to ignore the choices, conflicts, > doubts, confusions, > etc. > > In Chapter 2, Verses 56 to 72, Krishna > describes the > characteristics beautifully. I refer > you to my > homepage URL for a complete > discussion. > > http://www.geocities.com/advaitins/Sthitaprajna.html > Certainly, Ram, the final verses of Chapter 2 are a beautiful summation of the type of the perfected human being. But there is also a non-trivial sense in which the world and all of us are already perfect simply because we participate in the divine nature. I think this is worth remembering always because we are finite beings who can never be satisfied with less than All so that, no matter how 'perfect' we are, we will always be striving to be better than we are. Regards, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2000 Report Share Posted February 18, 2000 Greetings Patrick: Your statement - "But there is also a non-trivial sense in which the world and all of us are already perfect simply because we participate in the divine nature" reflects the views expressed by the seers of the Upanishads in one or other forms. Even though many of us recognize the truth behind your statement, we don't keep it in our memory all the time and we have too many memory lapses. This memory lapse is beautifully illustrated through Arjuna who forgot his obligations to the nature. Krishna had to remind him and wake him up from his dream stage to regain his true nature! By reading Gita again and again, we can avoid our memory lapses and become alert and aware about who we are and where we live and why and how we live! regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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