Bhagawad Gita Chapter 2: Verses 12 to 15

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

A good introduction is available on-line at:

 

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/hinduismbk.htm#_VPID_51

 

[pp. 81-84, sraadha and tarpana---All About Hinduism]

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

>"Anand Natarajan" <anandn

>advaitin

>advaitin

>Re: Bhagawad Gita Chapter 2: Verses 12 to 15

>Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:05:46 -0800

>

>

>Namaste,

>

>The question of Shraadha ceremonies can be treated from a psychological

>manner.

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The question of Shraadha ceremonies can be treated from a psychological manner.

For a person in ignorance, there are two states of the mind, the conscious and

the sub-conscious. The conscious is the impressions which are being manifested

and the sub-conscious are the stored impressions. When a relation of a person

dies, the conscious part of the person only understands that this individual is

no more and that all material ties with that individual are gone forever. For

the sub-conscious however, the person still lives.

That is why many people see lost relations in dreams etc.

Therefore there comes a dichotomy between the intellect and the mind which has

the potential to cause havoc. All Shraddha ceremonies are self purificatory. All

purifications are aimed at the sub-conscious. It is a "churning" process to get

rid of this dichotomy.

This is my understanding of the reason for these ceremonies.

 

Anand

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

FOR THE REASON YOU WROTE THE JEWS CUT THE A PIECE OF

CLOTHING ON THE PERSON WHO LOST THERE LOVED ONE SO THE THAT

THERE ARE NO TIES . THANKS BILL

[Guest guest]

Greetings Advaitins:

 

We are quite fortunate to get Swamiji's Dayanandaji commentary on Verses 11

and 12. I want to thank Swamini Brahmaprakashananda for taking her time to

send the commentary. She has also agreed to post Swamiji's commentary in

future weeks. I sincerely request members to take part in the Satsang by way

of asking questions regarding verses or by sending their own understanding. A

successful Satsang will help all the Vedantic Missions such as Chinmaya

Mission, Arsha Vidya Gurukulam and others to make full use of the Cyberspace

as a viable media for spiritual education.

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

=======================================================

Discussion on Bhagawad Gita - Ch.2 - Verses 12 to 15 compiled from Bhagavdgita

- Multimedia CD (permission is obtained from the publisher for conducting Gita

SatSang Discussion)

=======================================================

Verse # 12

Establishing in this verse the everlasting character of the soul, the Lord

shows to Arjuna that neither those whose loss he feared, nor Arjuna himself,

nor even Bhagavan Sri Krsna was, is, or would ever be non-existent at any

time. They existed even before the birth and appearance of their present

bodies, and would continue to exist after the disappearance of those bodies.

Destruction of bodies does not lead to the destruction of the soul. Therefore,

Arjuna should not grieve for those relations out of fear of their destruction.

 

Verse # 13

Regarding the soul as subject to change, the' unwise think that it suffers

great pain both when leaving a particular body and taking a new birth, and

therefore grieve for it. In the present verse, the Lord declares this unwise.

He says that; just as childhood, youth and old age do not really belong to the

soul, but pertain only to the gross body, and are only attributed to the soul,

even so it is not the soul which leaves a body and takes another; it is the

astral body which undergoes these experiences, and they are attributed to the

soul. Being unaware of this truth, it is only the unwise who grieve over one's

transition from one body to another. The wise never do so; for in the eyes of

the wise the soul has no relation with the body. Therefore, Arjuna should not

grieve for those relatives.

 

Verse # 14

 

That by which things are measured, or which knowledge of things is obtained,

is called a `Matra'. Therefore, the term Matra is intended here to mean all

the senses, including the mind; and `Sparsa' by means contact. Thus the

compound word `Matrasparsah' comes to mean contact of the mind and senses with

their respective objects, e.g, sound, touch, colour, taste and smell.

Heat and cold, pleasure and pain, etc, mentioned in this verse, stand for all

pairs of contraries. Therefore, when the Lord says that contacts between the

senses and their objects give rise to the feelings of heat and cold, pleasure

and pain, etc. He shows that it is these objects which when contacted by the

senses give rise to every form of dual experience, e.g, the feelings of heat

and cold, love and hatred, joy and grief, pleasure and pain, concord and

discord, etc. All morbid feelings arise from a sense of permanence of the

objects of senses. Therefore, knowing and realizing those objects as

transitory and fleeting by nature, their contact should not be allowed to

produce any unhealthy reaction on the mind.

Describing the contact between the senses and their objects as coming and

going and impermanent, by nature, and asking Arjuna to ignore the same, the

Lord has shown that such contacts, giving rise to pleasure and pain, being

transitory do not contain the least trace of true happiness. Therefore, Arjuna

is being advised to ignore them, that is, he is being asked not to rejoice or

grieve over their coming and going, nor to entertain any partiality or

prejudice for or against these. Meeting withone's near and dear ones is also

included in this; for as in the case of other objects it is through the mind

and senses that we are united with or separated from our relatives. Hence it

should be understood that the Lord exhorts Arjuna to overcome pleasure and

pain resulting from all such contacts and separation.

 

Verse # 15

The indeclinable `Hi' in this verse has been used to denote reason. The

intention is to point out the reason why contacts between the senses and their

objects should be ignored.

`Rsabha' signifies `the best', or `the most excellent'. Thus the compound word

`Purusarsabha' here denotes the most heroic and strongest of men. Addressing

Arjuna as `Purusarsabha' in this verse, the Lord intends to say that being the

best of heroes and strongest of men, indifference to pleasure and pain etc, is

a part of Arjuna's nature; therefore it should be quite easy for him to ignore

all these dual experiences.

The word `Dhiram' is generally used with reference to the God-realized soul;

but, now and then, it is also used to signify a soul sufficiently qualified to

realize God. Here it means a practicant who has reached a state of ripeness in

the practice of Sarikhyayoga, or the Yoga of Knowledge.

The adjective `Samaduhkhasukham' (to whom pleasure and pain are alike) is used

to denote the essential qualification of a `Dhira'. He who looks upon both

pleasure and pain with an equal eye, that is, regarding both the experiences

as fleeting, makes no distinction between them, is a `Dhira'; he alone can

overcome them without being affected by them.

Contacts between the senses and their objects, which were expressed by the

word `Matrasparsah' in the preceding verse, are referred to again in this

verse by the word `Ete' (these). And by saying,` who is not tormented by these

contacts,' it is intended to show that when the practicant through the

repeated and constant practice of overcoming the feelings of attraction and

repulsion, joy and grief, arising from the contact of, or separation from,

objects of senses, attains a state when the contact of any sense with any

object of enjoyment fails to produce any kind of agitation or morbid feeling

in his mind, then should it be regarded that he is a `Dhira' or a wise man to

whom pain and pleasure have become equal.

By saying `he becomes eligible for immortality the Lord means to say that the

wise man referred to above as possessed of an equable mind, who remains

unperturbed and unaffected by any contact whatsoever, becomes qualified to

attain Moksa or realize God and very soon succeeds, in directly perceiving

Him.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I am not sure if a reading list has been recommended on this list.[i

could not locate one with the few key-words I used!]

 

One that comes to mind is : "The Crest-Jewel of Discrimination",

[Vivekachudamani], of Shankaracharya, tr. by Sw. Prabhavananda and

Christopher Isherwood.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

>claudef

>advaitin

>advaitin

> Re: Bhagawad Gita Chapter 2: Verses 12 to 15

>Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:30:09 -0000

>

>Greetings Advaitins,

>

>advaitin , Ram Chandran <chandran@t...>

>Ram Chandran reports from:

>Any light on this topic?

>

>I am new to this list and a neophyte concerning advaita and India

>sacred scriptures but interested to "progress" in the knowledge of

>the I Am.

>

>Best regards,

>

>Claude

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Greetings Advaitins,

 

advaitin , Ram Chandran <chandran@t...>

Ram Chandran reports from:

>

> =======================================================

> Discussion on Bhagawad Gita - Ch.2 - Verses 12 to 15 compiled from

Bhagavdgita

> - Multimedia CD (permission is obtained from the publisher for

conducting Gita

> SatSang Discussion)

> =======================================================

 

snip

>Being unaware of this truth, it is only the unwise who grieve over

one's

> transition from one body to another. The wise never do so; for in

the eyes of

> the wise the soul has no relation with the body.

 

"the soul has no relation with the body" seems to me an affirmation

with no relation with the notions I've been exposed to. Does the body

not derives its life and movements from the soul?

 

Or is it a way of saying that the body is not necessary for the

existence of the soul? about which I agree.

 

Any light on this topic?

 

I am new to this list and a neophyte concerning advaita and India

sacred scriptures but interested to "progress" in the knowledge of

the I Am.

 

Best regards,

 

Claude

[Guest guest]

Greetings Claudeji:

 

Namaste,

 

You have indicated that you agree with the statement,

"the body is not necessary for the existence of the

soul." Lord Krishna emphasizes the distinction

between the cause (soul) and the effects (body). Your

conjectures and your explanations do indicate that you

have grasped the essence of the message.

 

Most of the time, we bring more details to understand

and some excess details can also carry confusion! When

Patrick made a statement regarding commentaries, he

was cautioning about potentials for confusions.

 

The Vedic traditional method of learning has the

advantage - we can get direct eye-contact explanation

to our doubts. The Guru whom we choose for our

learning is not only a scholar but a respectable and

reliable friend who understands specific needs. I had

to choose an advisor for my Ph.D. dissertation and he

was just a witness to my research work. I have to do

studies and research work, but his presence did help

me to get the confidence to proceed without fear. This

American Graduate School System of Guru-Student

relationship is no different than the Vedic System.

Faith did play an implicit (and important) role in

both these systems.

 

Thanks for raising an important question along with

the right answer!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

--- claudef wrote:

> Greetings Advaitins,

>

> advaitin , Ram Chandran

> <chandran@t...>

> Ram Chandran reports from:

> >

> >

>

=======================================================

> > Discussion on Bhagawad Gita - Ch.2 - Verses 12 to

> 15 compiled from

> Bhagavdgita

> > - Multimedia CD (permission is obtained from the

> publisher for

> conducting Gita

> > SatSang Discussion)

> >

>

=======================================================

>

> snip

>

> >Being unaware of this truth, it is only the unwise

> who grieve over

> one's

> > transition from one body to another. The wise

> never do so; for in

> the eyes of

> > the wise the soul has no relation with the body.

>

> "the soul has no relation with the body" seems to me

> an affirmation

> with no relation with the notions I've been exposed

> to. Does the body

> not derives its life and movements from the soul?

>

> Or is it a way of saying that the body is not

> necessary for the

> existence of the soul? about which I agree.

>

> Any light on this topic?

>

> I am new to this list and a neophyte concerning

> advaita and India

> sacred scriptures but interested to "progress" in

> the knowledge of

> the I Am.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Claude

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings Mr Chadran and Mr Hattangadi,

 

Thanks for your reply to my post.

 

One B.G. verse a day seems appropriate to me and a way to find a

source of meditation.

 

Claude

[Guest guest]

Greetings Advaitins,

 

Taken from : /message/advaitin/4486?&start=4461

 

"Verse # 13

Regarding the soul as subject to change, the' unwise think that it

suffers

great pain both when leaving a particular body and taking a new

birth, and

therefore grieve for it. In the present verse, the Lord declares this

unwise.

He says that; just as childhood, youth and old age do not really

belong to the

soul, but pertain only to the gross body, and are only attributed to

the soul,

even so it is not the soul which leaves a body and takes another; it

is the

astral body which undergoes these experiences, and they are

attributed to the

soul. Being unaware of this truth, it is only the unwise who grieve

over one's

transition from one body to another. The wise never do so; for in the

eyes of

the wise the soul has no relation with the body. Therefore, Arjuna

should not

grieve for those relatives."

 

Before my joining to Advaitin mailing list, I had the occasion to

read the following text from Gangaji's web site which, imo, brings an

interesting perpective.

 

« My best, beloved friend died this March. We were both students of

Advaita Vedanta, and we used the Gita to guide us in his dying

process. I read in the Gita that a wise man does not grieve. I knew

that I had to let him go, I could not keep him, so I sat with him,

and he left. It was peaceful and dignified, and I know he's fine now.

 

And what about the one who is left behind?

 

That's the interesting thing. People kept saying, "I'm really

concerned about you," and I just kept speaking the truth: "I am

seated in the Self, and this is just fine. There is no grief, because

I know the truth." That lasted a day. After that I was really shocked

and confused at the anguish and the heartbreak I felt.

 

Well, this is an example of the damage that wise men can do. I don't

know if it is the translation of the Gita or the person who actually

wrote the Gita, but "the wise man does not grieve is a very limited

perspective. It is not the full truth. The conclusion is true, but it

leaves out the essential, exquisite truth of the unlimited capacity

to grieve fully, completely.

 

I say, "The wise person knows how to grieve and from that, does not

grieve." If you to a belief that the wise person does not

grieve and then grief appears, you might think there must be

something wrong. This is most dualistic. You are speaking of Advaita

Vedanta, which is a non-dual teaching, and yet the result you are

reporting is dualistic. When grief appears, meet it fully and

completely, and recognize that which includes all emotions, all

states.

 

A horrible experience appeared in your life. You met your friend's

death fully, and you were enriched unbelievably. Grief, also, is an

enriching vehicle. All of incarnation is an enriching vehicle. All of

incarnation is the Self, and the emotions and thoughts and bodies

that appear will attach to the Self and detach from the Self. The

Self experiences all as Itself. You experience grief, and therefore,

it is proof positive that the wise person is not afraid to grieve, is

not afraid to live, is not afraid to die. If fear of death arises,

the wise person is not afraid of the fear of death. Do you

understand? We have thought we understood much, and in that

understanding, a very narrow little place has been created, which is

where the so-called wise person lives--but who would want that?

 

I had to give it up. I saw that the grief was there, and it had to be

accepted.

 

So the text is wrong. Yes, it is true! You will read many texts, and

from your deep experience of truth, you will see that the translator

got it wrong, or through the generations it got twisted into some

kind of dualistic understanding of what the "real" self is and what

the "false" self is. When you are simply where you are, all is

included, and all is enriching.

 

The misunderstanding could be because it was primarily men who wrote

these texts for other men. If you look at it closely, it could be

seen as a masculine survival strategy. If men are grieving, they

can't be in battle effectively. Many of our revered sacred texts have

to do with the relationship of man to battle.

 

There are times when it is appropriate to repress grief; there are

times when it is appropriate to beat your chest with grief; and there

is the everlasting time of simply experiencing grief as it is, now,

in truth, at the core. Then you have taken the masculine way and the

feminine way and you have merged them into no way at all."

 

Source : http://www.gangaji.org/satsang/library/excerpts/doorway.htm

 

Best regards,

 

Claude

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The grief of a person whose ignorance is not dispelled, is due to

'attachment'. The emotion one ascribes as grief to a Self-realised one is

truly an outpouring of compassion that ignorance still clouds so many.

 

The compassion is a 'saatvika' emotion; grief is a 'raajasika'

emotion, so I do not think these are equivalent.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

>"Claude Fournier" <claudef

>advaitin

>advaitin

> Re: Bhagawad Gita Chapter 2: Verses 12 to 15

>Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:38:17 -0000

>

>Greetings Advaitins,

>

>Taken from : /message/advaitin/4486?&start=4461

>

 

____

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Sri Ramkrishna tells this following incident.

When his relative , young Akshay passed away, Sri Ramakrishna was at his side.

Everyone else started weeping and wailing , but He saw that nothing had really

happened, the spirit was separated from the sheath, thats all. When he saw it ,

he started dancing with joy instead of weeping.

However after 3 days , he felt the pang of Akshay's absence and wept.

 

I guess the moral to the story is in what sage Yagnavalka says to sage Narada,

Happiness is present only in the infinite as the infinite can be satisfied only

with the infinite.

 

 

Anand

 

On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:38:17 Claude Fournier wrote:

>That's the interesting thing. People kept saying, "I'm really

>concerned about you," and I just kept speaking the truth: "I am

>seated in the Self, and this is just fine. There is no grief, because

>I know the truth." That lasted a day. After that I was really shocked

>and confused at the anguish and the heartbreak I felt.

 

 

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