Is guruship american???????????.

[Guest guest]

Hi, I am Henry, am new to this list, a few thoughts as I read this post.

There are dozens of guru's how does one determine which one has the

higher, best truth? You are not suggesting that a guru acts like a pope and

tells people what they should believe? Also, I have noticed that different

gurus do put a different slant on the gita. If two different gurus have a

different slant or meaning of the gita, which one is true, or how am I to

determine which one is true?

 

Also, In a country like america where everybody can read and have access to

any book that they want to, and where everybody is considered equal, is

there really a need for gurus in america in the year 2000.

 

Point, just because something was done in a certain way in a certain culture

(e.g. India) for thousands of years, does this mean that it must be done

this way forever in all cultures in every nation on the planet earth. One

of the main aspects of america is the word, new and improved, americans do

things in a new way, resulting in going to the moon for example. Its

because americans are free to think freely that america is great and I might

add, one of the leading nations of the world.

In short, perhaps I am suggesting that the guru concept is very

un-american, and most americans find the role of guru as a cult concept

where you take away the persons right to read it for them selves and form

their own opinion.

 

as a side note, In Europe, one of the arguments between the catholics and

the protestant was, who gets to read the bible and interpret it, who is the

authority. The pope or each and every person who reads the bible.

 

----Original Message Follows----

"Jaishankar Narayanan" <jaishankar_n

advaitin

advaitin

Gita should be studied with a Guru.

Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:35:00 -0000

 

Dear Friends,

 

Patrick Kenny wrote

 

"for its teaching to come across most

clearly the Gita has to be read as epic

poetry which is to say straight through

with no commentary at all."

 

I disagree with this statement. Gita is a Pramana ( means of

knowledge) which reveals the true nature of our self (Brahma Vidya)

and it also gives us the means to prepare ourselves (Yoga Shastra) so

that we can receive this knowledge. Now if we read Gita by ourselves

there will be a tendency to only take what we are looking for in Gita

and not what Gita is revealing to us. I think this is one of the

reasons for so many books and commentaries on Gita because people

have read Gita by themselves and tried to get confirmation for their

own pet ideas rather than to try and understand what Gita reveals.

 

 

 

The point, In america, everyone is entitled to have their own "pet ideas".

 

 

 

again, the question is you are not suggesting the the guru should be a

pope with the sole authority to tell others what the gita means.

 

 

 

 

 

To understand the teaching of Gita, a

Guru who knows the traditional

methodology of teaching, who knows the vision of the Vedas completely

 

 

Who can say that someone "knows the vision of the vedas completely"?

As an american I can ask, what if the guru, even your guru,is wrong.? What

then?

 

 

 

 

and the one who can handle Gita as a means of knowledge is necessary.

Therefore Vedanta Shastra should be read only with a Guru even though

one might be a great Scholar in Sanskrit, Nyaya etc and one has the

capability to read the original. Then what to talk of reading

translations which introduce an entropy in the meaning of the text

due to the cultural leanings of the translator and the limitation of

the language into which the original text is translated into.

 

There are also cycles to human history, and what is true or useful in one

cycle is not true in another cycle. My point: The gita is a very old book

from another time and place addressed to people of another culture. America

is a new cycle and a new time and place. I mean truths from India have to

be written in american English, and it is not realistic to expect americans

to do or follow the Hindu culture.

 

 

Although Gita is in a verse form and it might have literary merits,

it is not a poem to be read by oneself. It is treated on par with the

Upanishads, which are revealed Scriptures and an independent means of

knowledge. So Gita should be treated as a scripture and a means of

knowledge and one should have the humility to approach a traditional

teacher to know what it really wants to teach us, rather than look

for a confirmation of our preconceived notions in the Gita.

 

with love and prayers,

 

Jaishankar.

 

 

 

 

 

"There is no death; there are no dead; We live and love you still"

[ ]

 

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

In the context of the Gita discussions, the attitude of a sincere

disciple [for spiritual instruction] is that shown by Arjuna, in II:7 :

 

....shishhyaste.aha.n shaadhi maa.n tvaaM prapannam.h .

 

....I am your disciple; teach me, I have surrendered to you

 

Later in the dialogue, IV:34 : Krishna has this to say :

 

tadviddhi praNipaatena pariprashnena sevayaa .

upadekshyanti te j~naana.n j~naninastattvadarshinaH ..

 

That [wisdom] you will be taught by the knowers of Truth, after you

acknowledge them with respect, sincere questioning, and service.

 

In effect, a seeker needs to state the purpose for the instruction, and

research if the teacher is qualified [caveat emptor!]

 

The teacher can test the potential disciples for their qualifications

for this particaular teaching.

 

Search for the Supreme Truth has been compared to the 'walking on a

razor's edge', in the Katha Upanishad.

 

One who has reached this stage of preparation, will be sought out by

the Teacher through Divine command! This one is the "SADGURU".

All other teachers are gurus for limited goals.

 

One can say that the Teacher-Disciple bond is divinely ordained,

and a sincere seeker need have no fear of being misled. This has nothing to

do with nationality, or any other criterion.

 

The sadguru's teaching itself becomes a scripture, and only confirms

the intuitions of generations of such sadgurus.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

>"Henry ~~~~" <freegift55

>advaitin

>advaitin

>CC: dogstar, freegift55

> Is guruship american???????????.

>Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:00:31 PST

>

>Hi, I am Henry, am new to this list, a few thoughts as I read this post.

>There are dozens of guru's how does one determine which one has the

>higher, best truth? You are not suggesting that a guru acts like a pope

>and

>tells people what they should believe? Also, I have noticed that different

>gurus do put a different slant on the gita. If two different gurus have a

>different slant or meaning of the gita, which one is true, or how am I to

>determine which one is true?

>

>Also, In a country like america where everybody can read and have access to

>any book that they want to, and where everybody is considered equal, is

>there really a need for gurus in america in the year 2000.

>

>Point, just because something was done in a certain way in a certain

>culture

>(e.g. India) for thousands of years, does this mean that it must be done

>this way forever in all cultures in every nation on the planet earth. One

>of the main aspects of america is the word, new and improved, americans do

>things in a new way, resulting in going to the moon for example. Its

>because americans are free to think freely that america is great and I

>might

>add, one of the leading nations of the world.

> In short, perhaps I am suggesting that the guru concept is very

>un-american, and most americans find the role of guru as a cult concept

>where you take away the persons right to read it for them selves and form

>their own opinion.

>

>as a side note, In Europe, one of the arguments between the catholics and

>the protestant was, who gets to read the bible and interpret it, who is the

>authority. The pope or each and every person who reads the bible.

 

____

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[Guest guest]

"Henry ~~~~" <freegift55@h...> wrote:

> Also, In a country like america where everybody can read and have

access to

> any book that they want to, and where everybody is considered

equal, is

> there really a need for gurus in america in the year 2000.

>

> Point, just because something was done in a certain way in a

certain culture

> (e.g. India) for thousands of years, does this mean that it must be

done

> this way forever in all cultures in every nation on the planet

earth.

 

Even in America, where everybody is equal and everything has to be

new and improved, people go to graduate school and conduct research

under an advisor. They are willing to be guided by experience and

superior intellect in areas where these are useful. Today there are

science gurus, management gurus, economics gurus, automobile gurus

and political consultant gurus in America. When this is the case with

such mundane matters, why should it be assumed that the much more

difficult science of the Self is something that does not need a guru?

 

India has never had gurus who tell everybody what to do, what to

believe and what to think. I mean, the Indian guru is unlike the

Catholic Pope in all these respects. In all the thousands of years of

Indian culture, no guru has come up with a doctrine even remotely

resembling "Papal Infallibility." The phenomenon of modern

self-styled gurus is somewhat different, but I think that by and

large no one should have problems with a guru who is steeped in the

tradition.

 

We have always recognized that the ideal guru does not teach you what

to think, but he teaches you how to think. The ideal guru guides you

in your belief, rather than telling you what to believe. And of

course, there are time-tested techniques and modes of instruction,

that may help you, but you will never know till you try it honestly.

 

Vidyasankar

[Guest guest]

Advaitin One List & Gita Stasang:

 

Hari OM & Pranams.

 

The list is focussed on discussing Advaitin Philosophy in particualr and

Hindu Philosophy in General. At the moment we are near the early chapters of

Gita Satsang. It is a priority area.

 

I do not think it will serve the objective of this stasang to get into an

arguement of whether Ancient Hindu or Modern Amercian Culture is the best

form of learning Gita or for that matter, any other Hindu text. We all

ackowledge the well known cultural differences and these are also widely

documented. After we have achieved the purpose on hand, such a side

discussion can begin. Otherwise, it may place blocks to learning in terms of

time and other ways,in what is considered a rather difficult subject, which

is not so obvious and because of its subtelty that it needs a guide. At the

moment the collective wisdom of the Onelist is acting as such a guide rather

than one individual.

 

I think we should refocus on the main agenda. It would help if the

moderators announce a timetable for the Gita Chapters so that we can ideally

complete it this year on some auspicious day like Diwali.

>"Henry ~~~~" <freegift55

>advaitin

> Is guruship american???????????.

>Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:00:31 PST

>

>Point, just because something was done in a certain way in a certain

>culture (e.g. India) for thousands of years, does this mean that it must be

>done this way forever in all cultures in every nation on the planet earth.

> In short, perhaps I am suggesting that the guru concept is very

>un-american, and most americans find the role of guru as a cult concept

>where you take away the persons right to read it for them selves and form

>their own opinion.

 

____

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Hari Om & Pranams:

 

I agree that Gita Satsang is a priority area and we

should dedicate more time on the Satsang. At the same

time, one of the main objectives of this list is to

explore, revive and propagate Shankara's Advaita

Philosophy.

 

Diamond or Gold may available underneath the earth,

but one has to dig to find it. Not everyone who digs

for gold or diamond can find it. Lots of efforts,

help, knowledge and tools become necessary for

searching, digging and finding. The state of

non-duality is also like the gold. To attain it, we

have to acquire help, knowledge and tools. The sages

and seers of the Upanishads have strongly advocated

the relevance and importance of Sadhana (efforts) in

the pursuit of spiritual life. Those of us who have

great faith in our Vedic Traditions and Culture want

to take time and efforts to support and propagate

their causes. The mission of Adi Shankara is to

revive and energize the Vedic Traditions and Culture.

Consequently, this list is obligated to take time to

state Shankara's position when necessary. There is

disturbing modern view that nonduality is a

commercial commodity like a piece of cake, it is

available at the corner site, we can get it, eat it

and enjoy it without our efforts. When a members has

some sincere doubt and wants guidance, the list should

take some extra efforts to clear such doubts.

 

The present schedule for postings and discussion of

verses for the Gita Satsang is as follows:

Approximately seven verses per week will be posted

using Swami Chinmayananda and Adi Shankara's

commentaries. To complete the 700 verses, it will take

approximately two years. I think that this time-table

is more realistic and achievable. More than seven

verses per week will leave us with little room for

discussions,

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

--- P B Varadharajan <pbvrajan wrote:

> Advaitin One List & Gita Stasang:

>

> Hari OM & Pranams.

>

> The list is focussed on discussing Advaitin

> Philosophy in particualr and

> Hindu Philosophy in General. At the moment we are

> near the early chapters of

> Gita Satsang. It is a priority area......

[Guest guest]

Ram,

 

I hope that some other members of the

list will comment on the issues you are

raising here.

 

In your position, I think I might have

found it hard to resist the temptation

to respond to the

rhetorical question 'Is guruship

american?' by pointing out that only a

small proportion of the list's

members actually are American (as far as

I can see). On the other hand the writer

makes a very good point

that I think you need to address when he

asks whether a Catholic or a Protestant

attitude to scripture is

more desirable for this list. Recall

that Catholics are implicitly

discouraged from reading the Bible and

they

are taught to believe that there is no

access to God without the mediation of

the Church whereas the opposite

is true of Protestants. This is not just

an incidental difference but it is

largely responsible for the tremendous

intellectual development of the West in

the past several hundred years

(including the emergence of characters

like

Emerson for example) and *there is no

going back*.

 

I like this list because it has some

real intellectual substance to it and at

least an amateur level of scholarship

and knowledge of the scriptures is

needed in order to participate. But I

make no apology for my spiritual

utilitarianism:

I recognize the Gita is pure gold but

other parts of the tradition including

much of the later advaita writing

are if not outright wrong then at any

rate they are not *useful* to me and I

don't feel any obligation to pay hommage

to them (while of course being careful

to respect their exponents on the list).

 

So here's the rub: some members of the

list think that

it has to do with philosphy, others with

religion and some seem to straddle this

fence without being aware of the tension

between the two. A free expression of

views is quite likely to offend some

members' *religious* feelings

and may provoke the response that I

ought to find a Guru (as happened

recently). Take for example the passage

of the Gita that we are currently

reading. As I pointed out, this refers

to the Supreme Self (Shankara,

Dayananda) or

to reincarnation (Chinmayananda) (the

Gurus can't agree among themselves) but

if was to really dig my heels in --- if

I thought this list was about philosophy

and not religion --- then I would go on

to argue that the theory of

reincarnation

is logically inconsistent with the

central tenet of the Gita namely 'one

self in all beings and all beings in the

self'.

(To paraphrase Ramana, *who* is being

reincarnated?) But my impression is that

most members of the list would bridle at

such an affront to their *religious*

sensibilities and such a view would be

dismissed as an outsider's eccentricity

(notwithstanding the fact that from a

larger perspective the theory of

reincarnation is only a minority

opinion).

 

 

Regards,

 

Patrick

> I agree that Gita Satsang is a

> priority area and we

> should dedicate more time on the

> Satsang. At the same

> time, one of the main objectives of

> this list is to

> explore, revive and propagate

> Shankara's Advaita

> Philosophy.

>

> Diamond or Gold may available

> underneath the earth,

> but one has to dig to find it. Not

> everyone who digs

> for gold or diamond can find it. Lots

> of efforts,

> help, knowledge and tools become

> necessary for

> searching, digging and finding. The

> state of

> non-duality is also like the gold. To

> attain it, we

> have to acquire help, knowledge and

> tools. The sages

> and seers of the Upanishads have

> strongly advocated

> the relevance and importance of

> Sadhana (efforts) in

> the pursuit of spiritual life. Those

> of us who have

> great faith in our Vedic Traditions

> and Culture want

> to take time and efforts to support

> and propagate

> their causes. The mission of Adi

> Shankara is to

> revive and energize the Vedic

> Traditions and Culture.

> Consequently, this list is obligated

> to take time to

> state Shankara's position when

> necessary. There is

> disturbing modern view that

> nonduality is a

> commercial commodity like a piece of

> cake, it is

> available at the corner site, we can

> get it, eat it

> and enjoy it without our efforts. When

> a members has

> some sincere doubt and wants guidance,

> the list should

> take some extra efforts to clear such

> doubts.

>

> The present schedule for postings and

> discussion of

> verses for the Gita Satsang is as

> follows:

> Approximately seven verses per week

> will be posted

> using Swami Chinmayananda and Adi

> Shankara's

> commentaries. To complete the 700

> verses, it will take

> approximately two years. I think that

> this time-table

> is more realistic and achievable.

> More than seven

> verses per week will leave us with

> little room for

> discussions,

>

> regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> --- P B Varadharajan

> <pbvrajan wrote:

> > Advaitin One List & Gita

> Stasang:

> >

> > Hari OM & Pranams.

> >

> > The list is focussed on discussing

> Advaitin

> > Philosophy in particualr and

> > Hindu Philosophy in General. At the

> moment we are

> > near the early chapters of

> > Gita Satsang. It is a priority

> area......

>

> -----

>

> -----

> Discussion of the True Meaning of

> Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

> focusing on non-duality between mind

> and matter. Searchable List Archives

> are available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To from the list, send

> Email to

> <advaitin- > For

> other contact, Email to

> <advaitins

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

For a review of Guru concept, Sw. Vivekananda's lecture is on-line at

URL:

 

http://www.hinduism.co.za/guru.htm [and also has a spiritual episode

 

at the end.]

 

For an in-depth discussion, ref. is:

 

 

The Guru Tradition, by Chandrasekharendra Saraswati, [bharatiya Vidya

Bhavan, 1st ed. 1991.]

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

>Ram Chandran <ramvchandran

>advaitin

>advaitin

>Re: Is guruship american???????????.

>Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:18:13 -0800 (PST)

 

>When a members has

>some sincere doubt and wants guidance, the list should

>take some extra efforts to clear such doubts.

>

____

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[Guest guest]

MAY I SUGEST A BOOK CALLED THE GURU PAPERS MASKS OF

AUTHORITARIAN POWER BY JOEL KRAMER THANKS BILL