Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 A NET of JEWELS daily meditations for seekers of Truth RAMESH S. BALSEKAR http://www.advaita.org June 4, 2000 Spontaneous, true action happens naturally when there is no "you" checking whether the action conforms to your own idea of what's best for you. ************************************************************************** Human beings have no independent or autonomous existence whether they accept the fact or not. And whether they like it or not, they are being helplessly lived within the vast totality of an imponderably intricate creation over which the have absolutely no control. Addresses: Post message:ANetofJewels Subscribe: ANetofJewels- Un: ANetofJewels- List owner: ANetofJewels-owner URL to this page: ANetofJewels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Manuel V. Hernandez [wealthnow] June 4, 2000 A Net of Jewels Thank you. I would like to discuss these statements. You are most welcome to send your comments/corrections. This is just for the sake of discussion, please don't take this personally. Thank you. Statement number 1: ------ Spontaneous, true action happens naturally when there is no "you" checking whether the action conforms to your own idea of what's best for you. ----- Madhava replies: I think, there is no place for the word "Action" when there is no "you". Either it is Spontaneous, or it is true action --- it is not action. It is called as "akarma" (Bh.Gita)... How could you check an event, otherwise called by you as an action, which never occurred at all? Statement number 2: ------------------------------ Human beings have no independent or autonomous existence whether they accept the fact or not. And whether they like it or not, they are being helplessly lived within the vast totality of an imponderably intricate creation over which the have absolutely no control. ---------------------------- Madhava replies: I presume that there is something else I didn't understand related to this statement. However taking the statement as it is --- I would beg to disagree. I don't think this conforms to the advaitic teaching. Advaita says that you are the Generator, Operator, Destroyer - GOD... of *your* universe. You are the controller... You are *Vibhu*. You are the omnipotent one. You have every control on *your* universe. There are no human beings, there is only one being that is you. As long as you perceive this universe with multiplicity, then you fear, you are helpless, you are bound, you are weak. The moment you realize your false thinking, that you lost control --- where as in reality you are in full control, the world changes... You get the Iccaha shakti, jnAna shakti, kriyasakti. You will understand that the creation which is created by you, is perfectly under your own control.... This statement applies best in terms of Dvaita, where one sees GOD as a separately existing entity. GOD created this universe, also he created we humans. We as human beings have no independent or autonomous existence whether we accept the fact or not.... so on and so forth... But then I wonder how did this statement coined for the advaitic meditation! I remain yours, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 *Madhava I very much enjoyed you speaking this in your own voice :-) Ramesh B: Human beings have no independent or autonomous existence whether they acceptthe fact or not. And whether they like it or not, they are being helplessly lived within the vast totality of an imponderably intricate creation over which the have absolutely no control. > Madhava replies: > I presume that there is something else I didn't understand related to this > statement. However taking the statement as it is --- I would beg to > disagree. *I disagree too. I would say that the personality has "no independent or autonomous existence" & it is not in control of its actions. It'sprogrammed. Yet .. the absolute Being gets to play as human too (Human ~ Being) And I agree with you Madhava that ..Madhava: > .. you are the Generator, Operator, Destroyer - GOD... of *your* universe. You are > the controller... You are *Vibhu*. You are the omnipotent one. You have > every control on *your* universe. There are no human beings, there is only > one being that is you. As long as you perceive this universe with > multiplicity, then you fear, you are helpless, you are bound, you are weak. > The moment you realize your false thinking, that you lost control --- where > as in reality you are in full control, the world changes... You get the > Iccaha shakti, jnAna shakti, kriyasakti. You will understand that the > creation which is created by you, is perfectly under your own control.... This is a very powerful statement. I wonder if you have nearby any sepcific quotes which declare this to be so, from the Gita? I also like you response to the question of anyone acting submissive let alone women when we are in essence That One. Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Madhava, Thank you for your participation. If you wish to see if the egroup responds to this question; please check the ANetofJewels message board. I took the liberty of fowarding your messages to that board. Did not forward Colette's reply. Why? Because she is a participant on that board and could have posted her response there if there is a desire to have the group respond. mh, is not interested in debating what he does not know or even what he thinks knows. Again, mh is justing posting and reading responses. Why? mh doesn't know, haha, however it is happening and it is witnessed. Of course you are welcomed to join the group. However, there is more silence than discussion. mh, appreciates the silence and there is a suspicion that the members discuss off the board. Join and see what happens. Love, Peace & Understanding be with YOU! Namaste! mh P.S. this post was also forwarded to ANetofJewels.egroup.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 mh, Thanks for the invitation. I am not interested in participating any other list. I think it is more than enough that I am a member of 3 lists. More than three is always a burden... By the way, I just received a few mails asking whether it is permitted to advertise, on a regular basis, about another list, like you are doing now... Regards, Madhava Thank you for your invitation anyway. I remain yours, Madhava - Manuel Hernandez <wealthnow <advaitin > Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:11 PM Re: June 4, 2000 A Net of Jewels > Madhava, > > Thank you for your participation. If you wish to see if the egroup > responds to this question; please check the ANetofJewels > message board. > > I took the liberty of fowarding your messages to that board. > > Did not forward Colette's reply. Why? Because she is a participant > on that board and could have posted her response there if there is a > desire to have the group respond. > > mh, is not interested in debating what he does not know or even what > he thinks knows. Again, mh is justing posting and reading > responses. Why? mh doesn't know, haha, however it is happening and > it is witnessed. > > Of course you are welcomed to join the group. However, there is more > silence than discussion. mh, appreciates the silence and there is a > suspicion that the members discuss off the board. Join and see what > happens. > > Love, Peace & Understanding be with YOU! > > Namaste! > mh > > P.S. this post was also forwarded to ANetofJewels.egroup.com > > > > ------ > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here: > http://click./1/4054/5/_/489436/_/960138720/ > ------ > > Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To from the list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other contact, Email to <advaitins > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Madhava K Turumella wrote: > > mh, is not interested in debating what he does not know or even what > > he thinks knows. Again, mh is justing posting and reading > > responses. Why? mh doesn't know, haha, however it is happening and > > it is witnessed. Manuel hi. This is another reason why I am concerned Ramesh's message can be taken to an extreme of impersonality .. it can give the personal self you are being, an excuse to not take responsibility for your own creations ... This is where I agree with Madhava that yes in essence .. we are the Seer & creator of our own Reality. The personality is not ... but coexisting & underlying that play ... is the One Self creating from within itself all it sees. IMO, Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 hariH OM! i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the ideas of the jiva having or not the control over his world. there are advantages and disadvantages to [i would say] virtually any approach in practical philosophy as it applies to one's sadhana. this is why it's usually academic to criticize anyone's adopted approach. however, i would say this: that vital lessons will inevitably follow on the heels of *any* method/ideology. since all such *must eventually* collapse under the pressure of the primal satchidananda. nevertherless, since our focus here is advaita, it's relevant to voice our opinion within *its* parameters. note that the methods here too aren't rigid and universal, although they're inherently more finely tuned. in light of this... the culminaion of advaita [in moksha] implies the liberation or release of settling on any systematic formulation of ideas concerning any aspect of what one might consider Reality; including [this idea] of whether or not one is ever really the doer endowed with free will. in this context we could further theorize that within the relative range of the jiva or egoic entity, such free will does exist. however, this precludes the idea of a *real* separative doer [karta]...by definition, a real ego.. however, as we know, the paramarthika causes us to transcend this necessarily limited view. so [finally] moksha is the libertion of all needs of attempting to evaluate such riddles of philosophy. and therefore is the release of all questions. furthermore, it should be remembered, if we do in fact settle upon any system of philosophy or world conception, it in turn becomes a trap [and necessarily a limitation on our freedom--anathema to moksha thus]. the idea is to release *all* such philosophies, for in fact they are only amenable to certain positions withn the spectrum of the alleged separative ego. once it's released, so are all riddles of philosophy. *prior* to moksha, it is important to evaluate and explore these things, for they will deliver in time the lessons required to reach the threshold of that state of moksha. this additionally applies to the idea that moksha also implies the permanent release from the samsaric Wheel of Rebirth. i disagree. even logically this concept holds no water. since brahman Itself would have had to have been in an unenlightened state to desire Its projection into Life, as indicated in the rig veda. this is yet another paradox without a solution. so, why are we here; why is there suffering; what is all this anyway....??? ...are all rendered irrelevant and blissfully unanswerable in moksha. therefore within the context of all of this, the best strategy is to act as though eveything matters, yet *be* as though nothing does. this is the essential implied revelation in purushotama yoga (the integration of jnana, bhakthi and karma yogas). the conclusion is finally that not only is the nirguna brahman purely a mystery, so is its leela projection into the relative world as saguna brahman, purely a mystery. (moreover, the vedas tell us these are eternal conditions.) this is the fluidity implied by the freedom in moksha. no snags, no limits, no systems. thus one becomes aware how the Absolute infuses the Relative. advaitam. thus--despite how the mind dictates otherwise--one is as one has ever truly been: empty and awake. OM shaanthi shaanthi shaanthiH ________________________ --- Colette <colette wrote: > *Madhava I very much enjoyed you speaking this in > your own voice :-) > > Ramesh B: > Human beings have no independent or autonomous > existence whether they acceptthe fact or not. And > whether they like it or not, they are being > helplessly lived within the vast totality of an > imponderably intricate creation over which the have > absolutely no control. > > Madhava replies: > > I presume that there is something else I didn't > > understand related to this > > statement. However taking the statement as it is > > --- I would beg to > > disagree. > > *I disagree too. I would say that the personality > has > "no independent or autonomous existence" > & it is not in control of its actions. > It'sprogrammed. > > Yet .. the absolute Being gets to play as human too > (Human ~ Being) > And I agree with you Madhava that . > ..> Madhava: > > > .. you are the Generator, Operator, Destroyer - > GOD... of *your* universe. You are > > the controller... You are *Vibhu*. You are the > omnipotent one. You have > > every control on *your* universe. There are no > human beings, there is only > > one being that is you. As long as you perceive > this universe with > > multiplicity, then you fear, you are helpless, you > are bound, you are weak. > > The moment you realize your false thinking, that > you lost control --- where > > as in reality you are in full control, the world > changes... You get the > > Iccaha shakti, jnAna shakti, kriyasakti. You will > understand that the > > creation which is created by you, is perfectly > under your own control.... > Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 Hi Frank. I want to ask you whether you feel that the limited self (play) is also offered (in other words included) after transcendence of your personal self into Impersonal Being? f maiello wrote: > so [finally] moksha is the libertion of all needs of > attempting to evaluate such riddles of philosophy. > and therefore is the release of all questions. And yet does not translation of what Is actually make for the Play? In our efforts to explore our inner space of everythingness (through translation of our transformation) we help to integrate infinite awareness within a finite form ... Thus I see value great value in being personal as well as impersonal. Translating as well as transforming. Balancing on a razor's edge may often be achieved though finding the words for the finite representation that allow understanding. Could be Frank it's as Mystery as you say & yet it might also will be an ever expanding evolutionary process of Self exploration of the infinite into finite forms for the experience .. Communication (communion) is part of the play & can be fostered though sharing words too (translations). Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 - Colette <colette <advaitin > Sunday, June 04, 2000 5:36 PM Re: June 4, 2000 A Net of Jewels > Hi Frank. I want to ask you whether you feel that the limited self (play) > is also offered (in other words included) after transcendence of your >personal self into Impersonal Being? > Colette, Namaskar and good topic. While you're waiting on Frank's reply and his personal experience on this matter.... have you ever had a breakthrough experience where you're immersed in a vast expansive background of freedom and silence and your frontal (functional) personality feels like a small surface event ? Of cause there are further developments which I hope Frankji would elaborate on.. Thanks ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 Dave Sirjue wrote: > - > Colette <colette > <advaitin > > Sunday, June 04, 2000 5:36 PM > Re: June 4, 2000 A Net of Jewels > > > Hi Frank. I want to ask you whether you feel that the limited self (play) > > is also offered (in other words included) after transcendence of your > >personal self into Impersonal Being? > > > > Colette, > > Namaskar and good topic. While you're waiting on Frank's reply > and his personal experience on this matter.... have you ever > had a breakthrough experience where you're immersed in a > vast expansive background of freedom and silence and your > frontal (functional) personality feels like a small surface > event ? :-) I don't feel able to get as personal to be able to answer that on this list Dave. Sorry. > Of cause there are further developments which > I hope Frankji would elaborate on.. Me too. > Thanks > ~dave And then perhaps you may have more to elaborate & share too Dave? Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 --- Colette <colette wrote: > Hi Frank. I want to ask you whether you feel that > the limited self (play) is also offered (in other > words included) after transcendence of your personal > self into Impersonal Being? hi colette- all thses metaphysical ideas [such as sadhana needed for the purification of the mind, tapas, sannyas, etc] could be thought of as comprising the wooden slats on the raft that's taking us across the sea of samsara. while the idea of advaita--the nonduality between the Personal and Impersonal--would represent the oar. *however*, once we reach the other shore, the raft and oars become useless...are good then in fact only for firewood! literally, they have to be utterly destroyed! if not, they'll remain as obstacles, as powerful as any other nugget of mind-dross (ignorance) that formerly hindered our entrance into moksha. > Could be Frank it's as Mystery as you say & yet it > might also will be an ever expanding evolutionary > process of Self exploration of the infinite into > finite forms for the experience .. yes of course...who knows? anything is possible. as daveji mentioned, the experience of being some frontal reference point in the backdrop of freedom and silence....is one of countless possible facets in the infinite Play of our primal Being. even the idea i used [of all being 'mystery'] is only a way of saying...it too has to go! no ideas can remain. no concepts, systems of philosophy, nothing. *however again*, it appears that we could chose to play within the Play of brahman. yet behind all this scenery [Within and It's projection Without], is the One Unknowable, Unlimited Being *that has NO attending characteristics*. so we merely play in our eternal maya. but don't even hold to this! if it's indeed happening--whatever is or appears to be happening--let it! holding it or anything in the mind will in time [which invariably is the first thing engaged through the phenomenon of mind, spawning the weight and pathos of an entire universe] sprout entire vistas of ignorance.....and we're instantly back to square one in the elaborate mind-field of chaos. as sri ramana tells us, "don't worry about whether you're being this way or that way, just be." peacelove, frank Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 Hi everyone :-) Hi frank. f maiello wrote: > even the idea i used [of all being 'mystery'] is only > a way of saying...it too has to go! no ideas can > remain. no concepts, systems of philosophy, nothing. Be a lamp unto yourself ~Buddha~ "Aloneness Loneliness is the absence of the other. Aloneness is the presence of oneself. It is an overflowing presence ... You are so full of presence that you can fill the whole universe with your presence and there is no need for anybody ... The humble figure in this card glows with a light that emanates from within. Ultimately each of us must develop within ourselves the capacity to make our way through the darkness without any companions, maps or guides." ~ Osho Zen Tarot ~ I feel this quote kind of supports what you are saying here. Here are some wondrous poems from Eric Solibakke on our manifest & unmanifest .... "eternal perfect beloved while wide awake in the all-pervading ocean of oneness, i am required also to day-dream the worlds of shifting duality. you set me free from duality, oh indivisible one, even while making me at the same time fulfil the requirements of duality as well. i can only thank your grace for forgiving me the wild and uncontrolled shifts of viewpoint that make right seem wrong and wrong seem right. nothing is good, nothing bad, but only appears that way from various viewpoints. you offer me the best of all possible existences, to be in reality one and indivisible and at the same time to participate in the rough and tumble of daily life in the three worlds full of dream projections." ~eric solibakke~ eternal perfect beloved nirvanic oneness remains always absolute vacuum, even while producing all worlds and universes. therefore rishis say, "rupa shunyatam, shunyata rupam." form is emptiness, emptiness form. manyness is one, oneness many. misled meditators imagine you to be nothingness, a void of absence, zero. they attempt to deny, suppress and disassemble the worlds. but one can never see you through nullification, beloved ocean of love. mere nothingness has no such potential. nullification leads to the world. the entire creation amounts to zero. whoever divides oneness creates worlds of zeros counted by the mind as manyness. you can only be found in wholeness, that balance of opposites which simplifies all in the absolute vacuum of indivisible oneness. unification leads to you, the ever-beloved both in and beyond creation. oneness loves, oneness knows, oneness does. ~eric solibakke~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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