Guest guest Posted June 6, 2000 Report Share Posted June 6, 2000 We all need heroes to look up to. Examples that we can follow to the letter, thereby insuring the same fate as they. It makes life so much easier. We tend to place these figures on a pedestal, the example of all that is good. We lionize their lives and embellish the tales told of them. Basically, we place them beyond the pale, and certainly beyond our puny lives. Therein lies the problem. How can we be blessed to know the Self when we expect that to know It will make us just like our Masters, and how can we be like our Masters when they are sitting so high on that pedestal? We tend to forget an essential fact which describes every avatar and saint who ever lived. They were all human. The saints are just as normal, just as crazy, just as angry or sad (at times) as the rest of us. In fact, it is the whole idea of sainthood that creates this dilemma. We are taught that to be humble is to be godly. We all practice our humility with great care. One can see this practiced humility at large satsangs. We are also taught that to be realized confers sainthood. As we are working so hard on our humility, we recoil at the idea of a self-proclaimed saint. We strive so hard for sainthood, yet our practice of humility denies it. Saints are human, and realization does not a saint make. That is, realization does not automatically confer sainthood, and even the saints had very human lives. All are the Self, realized or not, saint or not. If we can give ourselves--as we exist in this moment--credit for being the Self--just as our spiritual heroes were--we will have moved miles to closer to actually knowing what they knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Swami Vivekananda used to describe the state of Samadhi in some talks. Somebody questioned him, "What is the difference between deep sleep and this Samadhi ?". Swamiji replied in his charecterestic style, "A fool going to sleep comes back as a fool , but a fool going into samadhi comes back as a sage." There are various types of samadhis and many of these are described in Raja Yoga by Swami Vivekananda. There details need not be dwelt into, but one thing that is sure is we need to "unlearn" the world. The world does not say it exists. On the contrary it is we who say the world, its problems, it saints, its sinners, all its paraphernalia exist. Someone once narrated this incident to me. It seems a certain Russian gentleman was touring India on the lookout for saints and yogis. He met many of them and none of them impressed him. He finally reached Kanchi and had an audience with the Kanchi Paramacharya. Though the Russian had heard many great things said about the Paramacharya, again he did not feel any of this was true. Here he was asking many questions, the replies given by the saint did not make any sense to him. Finally, he decided to leave, thinking this is a waste of time. Just then, the saint before him, smiled. The Russian gentleman then says, "When He smiled, I felt I was in the presence of a great soul". Devotees cannot help but look upon their masters as Gods on their pedestal because that is their experience, that is their conviction. The higher is your ideal, the higher you progress. It is a mistake to consider a saint as a mere human, he is not. It is true they might have had very human lives. However, He might appear to have all the human emotions, because he being perfect, he is also a perfect actor. Sri Krishna says in the Gita, "Fools disregard me as human, not knowing my higher nature as the Lord of all beings". Sincerely, Anand On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 02:30:22 jody wrote: >Saints are human, and realization does not a saint make. >That is, realization does not automatically confer sainthood, >and even the saints had very human lives. A FREE web-based e-mail service brought to you by the PC World Technology Network. Get your FREE account today at http://www.myworldmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Namaste, In Sri Ramakrishna's language: No matter how high the vulture flies, its sight is only on the carrion. Regards, s. >Concetta Curtis <starcrazed >advaitin >"'advaitin '" <advaitin > >RE: Re: pedestals >Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:04:54 -0700 > >Never judge anyone or anything, merely observe. > >Concetta > >Om Shanti... ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 advaitin , "Anand Natarajan" <anandn@m...> wrote: [snip] > Devotees cannot help but look upon their masters as Gods on their > pedestal because that is their experience, that is their conviction. > The higher is your ideal, the higher you progress. It is a mistake > to consider a saint as a mere human, he is not. There are two books which prove that both Ramakrishna and Vivekananda were just as human as the rest of us. The first is "Kali's Child: The Mystical and Erotic in the Teachings of Sri Ramakrishna" by Dr. Jeffrey Kripal. The second is "Swami Vivekananda: A Reassessment" by Narasingha Sil. The humanity of the saints does not reduce their stature as spiritual leaders, or at least it shouldn't. However, many would be shocked to know that their "Gods" had many of the same human frailities as they, and this could precipitate a crisis of faith. So, if you don't want your faith in these men shaken, don't read these books. > It is true they might have had very human lives. However, He might > appear to have all the human emotions, because he being perfect, he > is also a perfect actor. Sri Krishna says in the Gita, > "Fools disregard me as human, not knowing my higher nature as the > Lord of all beings". > > Sincerely, > Anand Perfection exists only as the Self. In the relative world even the Avatars take on its imperfections. A close study of the lives of the saints, one that ventures past the hagiographies, finds that even they were full of the imperfections we qualify as humanity. --jody. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Jody i don't know if this quote from bible fits in here. Judge not lest ye be judged. On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, jody wrote: > advaitin , "Anand Natarajan" <anandn@m...> wrote: > > [snip] > > > Devotees cannot help but look upon their masters as Gods on their > > pedestal because that is their experience, that is their conviction. > > The higher is your ideal, the higher you progress. It is a mistake > > to consider a saint as a mere human, he is not. > > There are two books which prove that both Ramakrishna and Vivekananda > were just as human as the rest of us. The first is "Kali's Child: > The Mystical and Erotic in the Teachings of Sri Ramakrishna" by > Dr. Jeffrey Kripal. The second is "Swami Vivekananda: A Reassessment" > by Narasingha Sil. The humanity of the saints does not reduce their > stature as spiritual leaders, or at least it shouldn't. However, > many would be shocked to know that their "Gods" had many of the same > human frailities as they, and this could precipitate a crisis of > faith. So, if you don't want your faith in these men shaken, don't > read these books. > > > It is true they might have had very human lives. However, He might > > appear to have all the human emotions, because he being perfect, he > > is also a perfect actor. Sri Krishna says in the Gita, > > "Fools disregard me as human, not knowing my higher nature as the > > Lord of all beings". > > > > Sincerely, > > Anand > > Perfection exists only as the Self. In the relative world even > the Avatars take on its imperfections. A close study of the lives > of the saints, one that ventures past the hagiographies, finds that > even they were full of the imperfections we qualify as humanity. > > --jody. > > [snip] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 advaitin , <anurag@s...> wrote: > > > Jody i don't know if this quote from bible fits in here. > > Judge not lest ye be judged. I am a fervent devotee of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. I don't stand in judgement of either by acknowledging their humanity. I celebrate the fact that we are all human in the eyes of God, and that our spiritual heroes were in many ways just like the rest of us. I suppose this violates that practiced humility we see people throwing at each other, but so be it. --jody. > > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, jody wrote: > > > advaitin , "Anand Natarajan" <anandn@m...> wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > Devotees cannot help but look upon their masters as Gods on their > > > pedestal because that is their experience, that is their conviction. > > > The higher is your ideal, the higher you progress. It is a mistake > > > to consider a saint as a mere human, he is not. > > > > There are two books which prove that both Ramakrishna and Vivekananda > > were just as human as the rest of us. The first is "Kali's Child: > > The Mystical and Erotic in the Teachings of Sri Ramakrishna" by > > Dr. Jeffrey Kripal. The second is "Swami Vivekananda: A Reassessment" > > by Narasingha Sil. The humanity of the saints does not reduce their > > stature as spiritual leaders, or at least it shouldn't. However, > > many would be shocked to know that their "Gods" had many of the same > > human frailities as they, and this could precipitate a crisis of > > faith. So, if you don't want your faith in these men shaken, don't > > read these books. > > > > > It is true they might have had very human lives. However, He might > > > appear to have all the human emotions, because he being perfect, he > > > is also a perfect actor. Sri Krishna says in the Gita, > > > "Fools disregard me as human, not knowing my higher nature as the > > > Lord of all beings". > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Anand > > > > Perfection exists only as the Self. In the relative world even > > the Avatars take on its imperfections. A close study of the lives > > of the saints, one that ventures past the hagiographies, finds that > > even they were full of the imperfections we qualify as humanity. > > > > --jody. > > > > [snip] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Never judge anyone or anything, merely observe. Concetta Om Shanti... "Everything bad that happens to us, occurs because we missed some synchronistic opportunity to avoid it" anurag Jody i don't know if this quote from bible fits in here. Judge not lest ye be judged. <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2000 Report Share Posted June 11, 2000 I think that saints like Swami VivEkAnanda and RAmakirshNa have shown human behavior to re-iterate the fact that any human being that has the desire to find the ultimate reality can do so, if he practices the required Yoga(in the sense of sAdhana). They migh have been ordinary human beings, but once they started their sAdhana, they're no more any ordinary human beings...once they realize themselves, they're mere Gods. Please correct me if I went wrong somewhere. --- Murali > I am a fervent devotee of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2000 Report Share Posted June 11, 2000 advaitin , "Murali Lanka" <lanka_murali@h...> wrote: > I think that saints like Swami VivEkAnanda and RAmakirshNa have shown > human behavior to re-iterate the fact that any human being that has > the desire to find the ultimate reality can do so, if he practices > the > required Yoga(in the sense of sAdhana). They migh have been ordinary > human beings, but once they started their sAdhana, they're no more > any > ordinary human beings...once they realize themselves, they're mere > Gods. Please correct me if I went wrong somewhere. Realization, that is, the event whereby the Self is recognized in the awareness of an individual life, brings about the permanent experiential knowledge that one is the Self. Realization can occur in the context of any mind, disciplined or not. It is ultimately an act of grace, bestowed by Shakti to the devotee. When realization occurs in the context of a disciplined mind, the result will be different than in the case of a less disciplined mind. When realization occurs, the mind of the person so blessed enters a whole new phase of development, as an entirely different platform of identity has been uncovered. This development occurs over time, as the mind is tied to the brain with its neural networks. Ramakrishna became realized in the context of an intense period of sadhana, which included years of tantric sadhana and a much lesser period of Advaitic sadhana. As his mind was developed in the context of this sadhana, it can be said that he was more God- like than a more ordinary devotee that is blessed with realization. Vivekananda was less experienced in terms of sadhana when he became realized. While he was a man of giant intellect, he certainly experienced a period of intense development after his initial realization. The intent of my "pedestals" post was simply to point out that if we put our heroes on such high platforms, how can our sense of humility ever let us climb to their level. Ramakrishna and Vivekananda were extraordinary men indeed, but a closer inspection of their lives reveals that in some ways they were very ordinary. One can see what some might call "imperfections" in their personalities. It cannot be denied that they had personalities, and if one ventures outside of the literature published by the Ramakrishna Math, one will see that in many ways these men were no different than anyone who posts to this list, even though they were spiritual giants as well. I'm not trying to make us all out to be spiritual giants too. What I'm saying is that the spiritual giants are giants as a result of the *description* of their lives, and when we look behind the hagiography, or the mythologized version of their lives, we see that they were very ordinary people *too*. I believe we can take comfort in the fact that saints are just like us in many ways, and that we may one day be blessed to enjoy the same awareness they enjoy without suddenly sprouting ashrams and going on world tours. --jody. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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