does nirguna brahman have desire?

June 14, 2000

namaste.

Frank Maiello made a convincing argument (in the

thread: Our Mission: the Destruction of Life?)

that the world and life is the result of desire

of nirguna brahman. While I too congratulate Frank

for nice original thinking, and while I see the

thrust of his logic, may be, there are some differences

in the semantics and the emphasis.

As I understand:

Nirguna brahman is shapeless, formless, actionless

and desireless. Only when He/She/It is associated

with mAyA, then only, there is creation and the

jagat (please see saundaryalaharI, verse 1).

Without union with shakti, the nirguna brahman

does not have the power of even spandana. When

creation is explained in the Br^hadAraNyaka

upanishad, the explanation is in terms of

HiraNyagarbha, not nirguna brahman. Without

mAyA, there is no creation. Desire is a product

of mAyA.

So, one way to look at it is: we ascribe the

property, desire, to nirguna brahman to explain

creation, as Frank has done. Only in our desire

to explain creation to satisfy our intellect,

we ascribe the property, desire, to nirguna brahman.

Another way to look at is: in the Absolute, there

is only nirguna brahman, without desire, without

name and form, and all-encompassing. And That is

all there is; nothing else.

We see diversity all around, and this is a product

of mAyA. There is no further need to explain this.

Our intellect asks the question to explain this

(all-round diversity and creation). Our intellect

itself is a product of mAyA, then why succumb to

this temptation to satisfy this mAyA-generated

intellect and resort to what may be circular

reasoning?

Frank says negating the world is a negative way

to look at creation. I think negating the world is

negating the reality of the world, but still look

at it the way it is and to see what it is. It is

nirguna brahman in association with shakti. The

color we give it depends on the purity of the

jeeva's heart.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--------------------

June 14, 2000

advaitin , Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote:

[snip]

> Frank says negating the world is a negative way

> to look at creation. I think negating the world is

> negating the reality of the world, but still look

> at it the way it is and to see what it is. It is

> nirguna brahman in association with shakti. The

> color we give it depends on the purity of the

> jeeva's heart.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> --------------------

"Brahman and Shakti are one, like fire and its power to burn."

--Ramakrishna

Nirguna Brahman is without attributes. Shakti is the power

whereby all manifestation occurs. If we can agree with

Ramakrishna, then we can say that Brahman's desire *is* Shakti.

This leaves Brahman attributeless, but not without expression.

The expression is carried out by, and in fact is, Shakti.

--jody.

June 14, 2000

--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

wrote:

> So, one way to look at it is: we ascribe the

> property, desire, to nirguna brahman to explain

> creation, as Frank has done. Only in our desire

> to explain creation to satisfy our intellect,

> we ascribe the property, desire, to nirguna brahman.

>

> Another way to look at is: in the Absolute, there

> is only nirguna brahman, without desire, without

> name and form, and all-encompassing. And That is

> all there is; nothing else.

>

> We see diversity all around, and this is a product

> of mAyA. There is no further need to explain this.

> Our intellect asks the question to explain this

> (all-round diversity and creation). Our intellect

> itself is a product of mAyA, then why succumb to

> this temptation to satisfy this mAyA-generated

> intellect and resort to what may be circular

> reasoning?

>

hariH OM! sri murthy-

and welcome back...

you're reacting to the letter of what i said and not

the spirit. technically you're right re the

definition of nirguna brahman and perhaps i shouldn't

have used that term specifically. but what shall we

name the source of all that is? brahman?...which

[implies] the combination of nirguna and saguna

brahman. then the consideration naturally follows as

to what lies between the manvantaras, i.e in the

pralaya state. is it not therein nirguna brahman?

therefore it comes clear that [within that nirguna

brahman state] there must be a seed that can spawn the

saguna manifestation. and this is what we have to

focus on....the *potentiality* of that. (note: i know

you have a problem with my naming the Manifest Life as

saguna brahman...which is a departure from the

classical definition as being strictly isvara or

hiranyagarba. nevertheless, i believe that [what i'll

refer to as esoteric vedanta] indeed the world, souls

and isvara are *collectively* brahman with attributes,

viz. saguna brahman.)

moreover the argument that this is an attempt to

intellectualize [or satisfy the intellect re] the

mechanics of the situation at hand is not true at all.

it's more like an attempt to defuse the intellect

through the dissolution in the problem that arises in

the intellect's creation of duality itself. and this

is the import and intention of advaita. that is,

advaita does not seek to propound a philosophy as such

to be leaned upon, rather it is an effective *means*

to neutralize the very process of menation, in terms

of getting out of the mind (as the zens so blatantly

refer to it as no-mind). moreover, to name this or

that as such and such, is only part of the greater

strategy (another word you have frowned on my using in

the past :-) for achieving a certain mental set-up

that will eventually allow our tyrannical Mind to

yield to the power in our Heart. to glorify any

teaching, its concepts, precepts, ritual observances,

as ends in themselves, is the most debilitating

mistake people are making! all the acharyas have

warned of mistaking the finger for the moon.

scriptures and dialogue always deal with means per se,

and never the end/goal...which is of course Itself

unutterable.

to reiterate, it's a matter of neutralizing the

constant battle going on in the mind. from the

grossest level, addressing the obvious negatives in

Life, and therefrom moving up philosophically to also

include the positive; whereas the final result engages

the habitual/ancient battle between what we regard as

the pure Self vs life in manifestation. therefore

metaphysics or esoteric philosophy is geared in the

direction of neutralizing this battle, this *constant

antagonism*. and this is especially what non-dual

philosophy is attempting to do...allowing us to

realize the Substratum Absolute Source behind

virtually everything perceivable through the six

senses. thus to say that maya, and therefrom kama and

mara are a product of shakthi ***which is outside of

the substratum Absolute brahman***, is to powerfully

reinforce this antagonism...this duality.

my essential point concerns tying in the Whole of the

Appearance [its kama, vrittis, sankalpas, etc] with

its Cause. hence, brahman = nirguna + saguna

[brahman].

mayashakthi doesn't come out of nowhere. and since

brahman is all there is, there has to be a source

connection. this is what advaita is seeking to lead

us into realizing. that we're immersed in a sphere of

at-ONE-ment. in fact, it is intrinsically who and

what we are!

i'm well aware that many will disagree with my views

(*which is important for them to do so*), that stand

in violation of their own adopted understanding and

methodology, which is appropriate for them to embrace.

no method or view is inherently right or wrong, if

what's being facilitated is in the name of soul

growth.

so, in the last analysis, it may indeed be better for

you (and others) to hold to your uniquely developed

perspective(s) and not at all be concerned with those

that differ, such as what i'm saying here. in the

end, our respective paths will lead to the selfsame

summit. (even if mine gets me there so much

faster!.......hahaha!....just kidding, of course...)

peace in ONE,

frank

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June 15, 2000

Namaste,

This exchange calls for further meditation on Gita verses II:45, 52,

53!

As averred by many Masters, whether one hunts for the treasure on top

of the roof or dig deep in the earth, when it is found the realisation comes

that all the implements used to reach it were in fact made of the same

treasure!! And it rests within one's own Heart too!!!