knowledge vs wisdom

July 1, 2000

namaskaar

below is an excerpt from osho's zen tarot readings.

note: despite that he had--especally in his latter

years--in my opinion, relative-bound (i.e. worldly)

ideas that seemed to be misaligned with one who is

presumably awakened to the Self (which, despite this

caveat, i believe he was), his insights into

metaphysics are among the best there are! please also

note that i'm not referring to the popular controversy

surrounding his methodology; but rather his

fundamental philosophical ideal concerning the

makeover of the world in terms of everyone living the

ideal of what he refered to as 'zorba the buddha'

(which is the living nondual interblending of the

nature of the spirit [brahman] with the paradigm of

the manifest world [leela]...which, per se, i'm sure

all advaitins would quite agree with, however from my

perspective, i disagree that the world could or even

*should* be made over [comprising a global community]

exemplifying thus).

it should also be noted that--contrary to popular

opinion--jnanis can indeed be in variance with

eachother's philosophies concerning the nature of the

world as well as their practical attitude thereof. it

should be obvios how this misconception causes all the

antagonistic debating between the followers of one

sage or religious founder over another [along with the

accompanying covert, if not overt attitude that in

fact one is enlightened whereas the other couldn't

possibly be!]. these kinds of judments are all

superficial, and cannot hope to penetrate the truth

concerning a given individual's interior

connection/intimacy with the Self brahman.

anyway, here's the reading:

Meditation for the Day

13. Dropping Knowledge

----

Naropa's haunting vision

Truth is your own experience, your own vision. Even if

I have seen the truth and I tell you, the moment I

tell you it will become a lie for you, not a truth.

For me it was truth, for me it came through the eyes.

It was my vision. For you, it will not be your vision,

it will be a borrowed thing. It will be a belief, it

will be knowledge--not knowing. And if you start

believing in it, you will be believing a lie.

Now remember it. Even a truth becomes a lie if it

enters your being through the wrong door. The truth

has to enter through the front door, through the eyes.

Truth is a vision. One has to see it.

Naropa was a great scholar, a great pundit, with ten

thousand disciples of his own. One day he was sitting

surrounded by thousands of scriptures--ancient, very

ancient, rare. Suddenly he fell asleep, must have been

tired, and he saw a vision.

He saw a very, very old, ugly, horrible woman--a hag.

Her ugliness was such that he started trembling in his

sleep. It was so nauseating he wanted to escape--but

where to escape, where to go?

He was caught, as if hypnotized by the old hag. Her

eyes were like magnets.

"What are you studying?" asked the old woman.

He said, "Philosophy, religion, epistemology,

language, grammar, logic."

The old woman asked again, "Do you understand them?"

Naropa said, "Of course... Yes, I understand them."

The woman asked again, "Do you understand the word, or

the sense?"

Thousands of questions had been asked to Naropa in his

life--thousands of students always asking,

inquiring--but nobody had asked this: whether he

understands the word, or the sense. And the woman's

eyes were so penetrating--those eyes were going to the

very depth of his being, and it was impossible to lie.

To anybody else he would have said, "Of course I

under-stand the sense," but to this woman, this

horrible-looking woman, he had to say the truth. He

said, "I understand the words."

The woman was very happy. She started dancing and

laughing, and her ugliness was transformed; a subtle

beauty started coming out of her being. Thinking, "I

have made her so happy. Why not make her a little more

happy?" Naropa then said, "And yes, I understand the

sense also."

The woman stopped laughing, stopped dancing. She

started crying and weeping and all her ugliness was

back--a thousandfold more. Naropa said, "Why are you

weeping and crying? And why were you laughing and

dancing before?"

The woman said, "I was happy because a great scholar

like you didn't lie. But now I am crying and weeping

because you have lied to me. I know--and you

know--that you don't understand the sense."

The vision disappeared and Naropa was transformed. He

escaped from the university, he never again touched a

scripture in his life. He became completely ignorant,

he understood--the woman was nobody outside, it was

just a projection. It was Naropa's own being, through

knowledge, that had became ugly. Just this much

understanding, that "I don't understand the sense,"

and the ugliness was transformed immediately into a

beautiful phenomenon.

This vision of Naropa is very significant. Unless you

feel that knowledge is useless you will never be in

search of wisdom. You will carry the false coin

thinking that this is the real treasure. You have to

become aware that knowledge is a false coin--it is not

knowing, it is not understanding. At the most it is

intellectual--the word has been understood but the

sense lost.

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July 1, 2000

Hi!

Well said.

Knowledge needs the mind to collect and catalogue. Understanding needs

the mind to interpret by comparison to the past and stored data. In both

cases logic is evident.

Wisdom comes from within and it is a happening. Many a time it defies

logic since it does not use the mind.

-- Vis

<Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:31:17 -0700 (PDT)

f maiello

This vision of Naropa is very significant. Unless you

feel that knowledge is useless you will never be in

search of wisdom. You will carry the false coin

thinking that this is the real treasure. You have to

become aware that knowledge is a false coin--it is not

knowing, it is not understanding. At the most it is

intellectual--the word has been understood but the

sense lost.>

July 1, 2000

Viswanathan wrote:

> Knowledge needs the mind to collect and catalogue. Understanding needs

> the mind to interpret by comparison to the past and stored data. In both

> cases logic is evident.

> Wisdom comes from within and it is a happening. Many a time it defies

> logic since it does not use the mind.

Greetings!

What exactly is the path of jnAna yoga? Please elaborate.

How does one not confuse jnAna yoga with punditry and pedantry like

how Naropa did?

Is there or is there not any intellectualism, logical deduction and

academic scholarship involved in jnAna yoga?

We have understood the path of bhakti yoga through the example of

the Gopis, the path of karma yoga through Janaka and the path of

dhyAna yoga through vAlmIki. What or who then is the example of

reaching Truth through the path of jnAna yoga?

Thanks.

--

Warmest regards,

Ruben

ruben

_____________

Politics without principles, Education without character,

Science without humanity, and Commerce without morality

Are not only useless, but positively dangerous.

-Sathya Sai Baba.

July 2, 2000

Dear Ruben,

Your question is beautifully answered in Gita --- Chapter 4, verse 24:

"BRAHMAN is the oblation; BRAHMAN is the clarified butter, etc. ,

constituting the offerings; by BRAHMAN is the oblation poured into the fire

of BRAHMAN; BRAHMAN verily shall be reached by him who always sees BRAHMAN

in all actions."

I believe that the above is the path of a Jnani. Which ever action or

inaction a Seer (Jnana yogi) is involved in, he does it with the

"brahmarpaNa bhava", which is explained above.

I also believe that Bhakti Yoga, Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Dhyana Yoga etc.,

can not be separated... We see them for the sake of understanding. For a

Jnani all these paths are the same.

---

Let me tell you a story: There are two people living in a village. One day

they decided that they should find the edge of the horizon. Each wanted to

go in a different direction. They approach an elderly man, who is living in

the same village, and express their desire. They both were under the

impression that their paths lead them in opposite direction. But that

elderly man understands the very nature of the Earth... He knows that the

Earth is in a globe shape and both will reach the same point after traveling

for quite a long time. He tries to explain them thus... These two do not

listen, they still see their paths are different. So this elderly man

allows them to pursue their ambition, knowing that experience alone will

make them realize the truth behind his words... So these people travel and

finally after cruising for quite long time, after long years, they face each

other at the place where they have started. They both immediately understood

the truth behind the elderly man's advise. They understand that their paths

had lead them to the same spot...

---

All paths lead to the same place. The elderly man in the above story is the

realized soul (a true jnani) he knows the very nature of the realization (of

brahman). For him east or west, north or south, Jnana or Bhakti, Karma or

Dhyana, Sukha or dukha everything is same, for they all are part and parcel

of the Brahman. Everything is Brahman.... Hari Om Hari Om "sarvaM

khalvidaM brahma"....

Valmiki, Janaka, Meerabai ---- all are Jnanis, they are bhaktas, and also

Karma Yogis. We see them in the light of our own understanding :-) Like a

person who is traveling towards North, truly thinks that he is traveling to

North. But in reality, he is traveling back, though looks like forward, to

the place where he started... Hari Om!

I remain yours,

Madhava

Ruben [rubenn]

Sunday, July 02, 2000 5:38 AM

advaitin

Re: knowledge vs wisdom

Viswanathan wrote:

> Knowledge needs the mind to collect and catalogue. Understanding needs

> the mind to interpret by comparison to the past and stored data. In both

> cases logic is evident.

> Wisdom comes from within and it is a happening. Many a time it defies

> logic since it does not use the mind.

Greetings!

What exactly is the path of jnAna yoga? Please elaborate.

How does one not confuse jnAna yoga with punditry and pedantry like

how Naropa did?

Is there or is there not any intellectualism, logical deduction and

academic scholarship involved in jnAna yoga?

We have understood the path of bhakti yoga through the example of

the Gopis, the path of karma yoga through Janaka and the path of

dhyAna yoga through vAlmIki. What or who then is the example of

reaching Truth through the path of jnAna yoga?

Thanks.

--

Warmest regards,

Ruben

ruben

_____________

Politics without principles, Education without character,

Science without humanity, and Commerce without morality

Are not only useless, but positively dangerous.

-Sathya Sai Baba.

------

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------

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July 2, 2000

Hi!

Jnana yoga is using one's intellect to question every thing known to the

ultimate point of questioning one's ego and its origin and coming to the

realization that the "I" is limited and non permanent dust in the ocean of the

infinite and the unchanging. In the enquiry when the "I" drops and jnana takes

over.

Yes. It is easy to confuse jnana yoga with punditry and pedantry, exactly like

Naropa did. Many do fall into this trap and are not lucky to have some Guru or

Saint help them out of this abyss!

The great examples of Jnana yogies are: Adhi Shankara, Ramakrishna, Jnaneswar,

Vivekananda, Ramana Maharishi etc.

-- Vis

Ruben wrote:

> Greetings!

>

> What exactly is the path of jnAna yoga? Please elaborate.

>

> How does one not confuse jnAna yoga with punditry and pedantry like

> how Naropa did?

>

> We have understood the path of bhakti yoga through the example of

> the Gopis, the path of karma yoga through Janaka and the path of

> dhyAna yoga through vAlmIki. What or who then is the example of

> reaching Truth through the path of jnAna yoga?

>

> Thanks.

>

> --

> Warmest regards,

> Ruben

> ruben

> _____________

> Politics without principles, Education without character,

> Science without humanity, and Commerce without morality

> Are not only useless, but positively dangerous.

> -Sathya Sai Baba.

>

> ------

> **BELIEFNET SHOPPING** Save $20 at the Beliefnet store! Thousands of

> religious and spiritual gifts and products. Now- get $20 off purchases

> of $50 or more through July 10.

> http://click./1/5591/6/_/489436/_/962505500/

> ------

>

> Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives are

available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To from the

list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other contact, Email

to <advaitins

>

July 3, 2000