Question on Ramayana

July 30, 2000

Dear friends,

I just got to read (finally!) the retelling of Ramayana by Ranchor Prime

(beautiful book,and well illustrated!).

I have a question about the seventh book of Ramayana, called Uttara. It

narrates the after Lanka story of Sita and Rama. I feel quite uneasy about

the end. It tells a story of expulsion of the pregnant Sita from Ayodhya by

Rama.

I can understand Sita's tribulations climaxing with fire ordeal after Rama

conquerred Lanka as the tribulations of the soul separated from its inner

self. But I can not find the explanation of Rama's expulsion of Sita later.

Can the learned members of this forum shed some light on how to understand

the final part of Ramayana?

Also, can someone recommend a nice shorter version of the Mahabharata epic

which is as easy to read as R.Prime's retelling of Ramayana?

With peace,

Lilia

July 31, 2000

In a message dated 7/29/00 11:18:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

lilia.stepanova writes:

> I can understand Sita's tribulations climaxing with fire ordeal after Rama

> conquerred Lanka as the tribulations of the soul separated from its inner

> self. But I can not find the explanation of Rama's expulsion of Sita later.

>

Dear Lilia

Jai Sri Krishna. After reading your question, I have been thinking in my mind

to give you my little understanding about Ramayane. I think Lord Rama being a

King; In his King dom Ayodhia, Janamat was as important as Bahumat;

Individual's (Dhobi's) saying was as important as Majority's saying as now a

days in politics.

Therefore in order to mentain his Maryada, Rama was sorry for what the Dhobi

said.

Jaganmata Sita knew about it & asked Sri Rama to sent her to the Ashram of

Balmiki. Where she would give birth to her child in Ashram, Which would be

good for the Child to grow with.

In reality; Rama never abandon Sita & Mata Sita never had any resent for

what Rama did. When lord Rama was doing Ashomegh Yegge, Lord Rama was asked

to marry another in absence of Sita, but he choose to have Sita's statue to

full fill the need of the Yegge.

If Jaganmata, Sita had any resentment, at the end when she was going back

to Dhartimata (Earth) She would not have prayed to have Rama as her beloved

in lifes to come.

Reading Ramayana, we can find Lord Rama & Sita they both had

indescribable love & respect for each other, But when they were performing as

being a King & Queen, they were just fulfilling their roles of play. Thinking

of Lord's glory is a meditation in its own way. Thankyou for raising this

question.

I hope you will find some better answers to your question from learned

members.

Thank you very much.

Raghabananda.

July 31, 2000

Blessed Lilia,

namastE!

Quite a few years back I also got disturbed after reading the uttarakanda of

Ramayana, and decided to do some study on what experts say about this.

During the process I read the entire Ramayana along with quite a few

commentaries. (it took two years of my study time, hence I got average marks

in my intermediate college studies :-))

Most of the books I read on this topic made it clear that Rama did not

commit the act of expelling Sita. Also the story of a street side person,

accusing Rama of bringing Sita who lived with another man for an year, is

not true... Because Rama clearly stated in Ramayana that a King should never

take decisions independently, he should counsel his ministers, and should

carefully understand the opinion of public, for most of the times public is

emotional, they get carried away by the word spread through the mouth . He

said these words in the context of going away to the forest. Most of the

ministers bring back the news to Dasaratha that his citizens are very much

against sending away Rama to the Forest. Rama did not listen to the

public opinion, he said he is doing what he believed as right! And

looking from this Dasaratha's context, we can say that --- for sure Rama

would not have listened to a low-level person who ill commented on Sita, if

at all that side story were true!

Most of the pregnant women would like to fulfill some of their desires.

Some women ask Mangos, some ask for tamarind. Manudharma was aptly followed

while King Rama was ruling India. Manu says it is a man's duty to fulfill

his wife's desire! Read back Ramayana, during the time of Pattabhisheka

(crowning ceremony), King Rama bestowed many boons on many people. Later

while he was alone with Sita he questions on what she wants! For which Sita

replies: "My dear Rama, since my birth I have lived in the Royal Courts, and

living in Lanka in the company of Rakshas has disturbed me very much. I

would like to live for some time in the hermitage of Sage Valmiki, I would

like to spend some time in retreat..." That was a nice wish. Who would not

like to go on vacation for a serene place! Sita wanted to go to Valmiki's

ashram. Rama readily arranges it and sends Sita away to the Ashram when she

was pregnant as per her wish.

Sita gives birth to two beautiful children called Lava and Kusha at the

ashram. And it should be also noted down that Satrugha, Rama's youngest

brother, visits Valmiki's ashram, in order to enquire the well-being of

Sita. He stays there with Rama's children for some time. Then goes back on

his Rajasuya yagna, which Rama was performing at that time. Rajasuya takes

9 to 10 years to perform. And in those days children used to get educated

in Ashrams only... Hence, Sita stayed back with Lava and Kusha at Valmiki's

ashram to see that they are getting educated, while Rama was performing

Rajasuya.

Now you may question, if Rama did not suspect Sita's character then why

should he question whether Lava and Kusha are his sons or not, in a public

court? Answer is: That was a custom those days!

A woman is allowed to give birth only at two places. (1) at her in-law's

residence (husband's place) (2) at her parent's home. If a woman gives

birth anywhere other than these two places then a mid-wife, who supervised

the labor, or an elderly person who witnessed the birth of the children,

should testify in front of public that the woman really gave birth to these

children. (otherwise, who will know if a woman brings somebody else's child

and claims that it is her own, especially in those dense forest dwelling

days?")

Since Sita gave birth to Rama's children in an Ashram. Valmiki testifies in

the public court on behalf of Sita. Here is the sloka which he utters at

that time:

"prAcEtasOhaM daSamaH putrou rAghava naMdana

nasmarAmyanRUta vAkyaM imoutu tava putrakou"

Oh Rama! I am the tenth son of the great sage Pracetasa, hence I shall not

utter a false word. I swear that these two are *your* children (he implies

both Rama and Sita).

What Rama and Sita did is nothing but abiding to the Law! They are trying

to live a public life which runs on pre-determined rules. Sita wanted to

go to ashram, Rama sent her. Sita gave birth to children, for the welfare of

children, Rama allowed her and children to stay in the Ashram. We can say he

did it for the sake of their education. Since Sita gave birth to the

children at an ashram, which is other than the allowed places, he allowed

Valmiki to testify for Sita so that Royal court could accept the

inheritance. Ramayana is perfectly all right, only our understanding is not

right :-)

I hope I am of some help.. Please do not hesitate to ask the blessed

gathering if you have any more doubts.

I remain yours,

Madhava

Stepanova, Lilia [lilia.stepanova]

Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:17 AM

'advaitin '

Question on Ramayana

Dear friends,

I just got to read (finally!) the retelling of Ramayana by Ranchor Prime

(beautiful book,and well illustrated!).

I have a question about the seventh book of Ramayana, called Uttara. It

narrates the after Lanka story of Sita and Rama. I feel quite uneasy about

the end. It tells a story of expulsion of the pregnant Sita from Ayodhya by

Rama.

I can understand Sita's tribulations climaxing with fire ordeal after Rama

conquerred Lanka as the tribulations of the soul separated from its inner

self. But I can not find the explanation of Rama's expulsion of Sita later.

Can the learned members of this forum shed some light on how to understand

the final part of Ramayana?

Also, can someone recommend a nice shorter version of the Mahabharata epic

which is as easy to read as R.Prime's retelling of Ramayana?

With peace,

Lilia

Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives

are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To

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contact, Email to <advaitins

July 31, 2000

Hari Om!

Recently I discussed this question with Sri Samavedam Shanmukha Sarma

who visited Dayton. And the couple of things I learnt are:

1. The story of a washer-man accusing Sita of chasity if _not_ there

in Valmiki Ramayana. The accusation was not from the washerman

but from the advisory counsel of Rama itself and when Rama

asked them if they have trust in Sita, it seems the entire

counsel fell silent indicating their dissent leaving Rama no choice.

2. To prove to his entire kingdom, the purity and place of Sita,

Rama performed the Ashwamedha Yagna and made sure that Sita's

golden statue was used as his consort to complete it.

That was only to demonstrate to people Sita's role in his

heart and kingdom too.

Also, I always thought that Rama had only one son Kusa and other

son "Lava" was created by the power of Valmiki. I stand corrected

if it is wrong.

With regards

-Srinivas

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August 1, 2000

Dear Srinivas,

Could you please let me know, in more detai, that Lava is created by the

power of Valmiki? Thank you.

Yours,

Madhava

-

Srinivas Nagulapalli <snagul

Monday, July 31, 2000 9:42 PM

RE: Question on Ramayana

> Hari Om!

> Also, I always thought that Rama had only one son Kusa and other

> son "Lava" was created by the power of Valmiki. I stand corrected

> if it is wrong.

> With regards

> -Srinivas

>

> ______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

> Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives

are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To

from the list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other

contact, Email to <advaitins

>

August 1, 2000

Dear Madhava garu,

I am not able to recall any Sloka or reference to support it.

But my memory's version of the story is: Once Sita entrusted baby Kusa

to the care of Valmiki while she goes to river bath. And when Sita

returns to pick Kusa, Valmiki was in meditation and Sita not wanting

to disturb the sage, leaves after picking up Kusa. Later when Valmiki

steps out of his contemplation,he finds empty cradle where Kusa was

earlier there. He thinks that if Sita comes to know of missing Kusa,

then she would not bear the loss and moreover he is responsible for

baby's as well as Sita's well-being, and so he creates Lava very

similar to Kusa.

Now, this I must have read that when I was a teenager and I am totally

open to correction. Incidentally, I haven't heard that Sita gave birth

to "twins". Please correct me if I am believing non-authentic version

of Ramayana!

With regards

-Srinivas

>"Madhava K Turumella" <madhava

>advaitin

><advaitin >

>Re: Question on Ramayana

>Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:03:57 +0300

>

>Dear Srinivas,

>

>Could you please let me know, in more detai, that Lava is created by the

>power of Valmiki? Thank you.

>

>Yours,

>Madhava

>-

>Srinivas Nagulapalli <snagul

><advaitin >

>Monday, July 31, 2000 9:42 PM

>RE: Question on Ramayana

>

> > Hari Om!

>

> > Also, I always thought that Rama had only one son Kusa and other

> > son "Lava" was created by the power of Valmiki. I stand corrected

> > if it is wrong.

> > With regards

> > -Srinivas

> >

> > ______________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> > Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

>focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives

>are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To

>from the list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other

>contact, Email to <advaitins

> >

>

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August 1, 2000

Namaste,

In the Valmiki Ramayana edition published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur, 4th

ed. 1995, there are several shlokas describing Sita giving birth to Lava &

Kusa, and why they were named thus by V[uttarakanda, Sarga 66].

" yaameva raatri.n shatrughnaH parNashaalaa.n samaavishat.h .

taameva raatri.n siitaapi prasuutaa daarakadvayam.h .. 1.. "

The Valmiki Ramayana encoded by Prof. Tokunaga, and re-done by J.D.Smith, at

URL :

http://www.alkhemy.com/sanskrit/mirrors/ramayana/valmiki.htm

does not correspond in the chapter numbering with the Gita Press edition,

[which has 111 sargas; Tokunaga's has 100].

Regards,

s.

>"Srinivas Nagulapalli" <snagul

>advaitin

>Re: Question on Ramayana

>Tue, 01 Aug 2000 19:44:53 GMT

>

>Dear Madhava garu,

>I am not able to recall any Sloka or reference to support it.

>But my memory's version of the story is: Once Sita entrusted baby Kusa

>to the care of Valmiki while she goes to river bath. And when Sita

>returns to pick Kusa, Valmiki was in meditation and Sita not wanting

>to disturb the sage, leaves after picking up Kusa. Later when Valmiki

>steps out of his contemplation,he finds empty cradle where Kusa was

>earlier there. He thinks that if Sita comes to know of missing Kusa,

>then she would not bear the loss and moreover he is responsible for

>baby's as well as Sita's well-being, and so he creates Lava very

>similar to Kusa.

>Now, this I must have read that when I was a teenager and I am totally

>open to correction. Incidentally, I haven't heard that Sita gave birth

>to "twins". Please correct me if I am believing non-authentic version

>of Ramayana!

>With regards

>-Srinivas

>

> >"Madhava K Turumella" <madhava

> >advaitin

> ><advaitin >

> >Re: Question on Ramayana

> >Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:03:57 +0300

> >

> >Dear Srinivas,

> >

> >Could you please let me know, in more detai, that Lava is created by the

> >power of Valmiki? Thank you.

> >

> >Yours,

> >Madhava

> >-

> >Srinivas Nagulapalli <snagul

> ><advaitin >

> >Monday, July 31, 2000 9:42 PM

> >RE: Question on Ramayana

> >

> > > Hari Om!

> >

> > > Also, I always thought that Rama had only one son Kusa and other

> > > son "Lava" was created by the power of Valmiki. I stand corrected

> > > if it is wrong.

> > > With regards

> > > -Srinivas

> > >

>______________________

> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com

> > >

> > > Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

> >focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives

> >are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To

> >from the list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other

> >contact, Email to <advaitins

> > >

> >

>

>______________________

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>

>Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

>focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. Searchable List Archives

>are available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To

>from the list, send Email to <advaitin- > For other

>contact, Email to <advaitins

>

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August 1, 2000

Namaste,

Update!

The Tokunaga edition has the chapter number as 58,[Gita Press ed. has

66].

yAmeva rAtri.n shatrughna parNashAlAM samAvishat .

tAmeva rAtri.n sItApi prasUtA dArakadvayam .. 1..\\

tato.ardharAtrasamaye bAlakA munidArakAH .

vAlmIkeH priyamAchakhyuH sItAyAH prasava.n shubham .

tasya rakShAM mahAtejaH kuru bhUtavinAshinIm .. 2..\\

teShA.n tadvachana.n shrutvA munirharShamupAgamat .

bhUtaghnI.n chAkarottAbhyA rakShA.n rakShovinAshinIm .. 3..\\

kushamuShTimupAdAya lava.n chaiva tu sa dvijaH .

vAlmIkiH pradadau tAbhyA.n rakShAM bhUtavinAshinIm .. 4..\\

yastayoH pUrvajo jAtaH sa kushairmantrasa.nskR^itaiH .

nirmArjanIyastu bhavetkusha ityasya nAmataH .. 5..\\

yashchAparo bhavettAbhyA.n lavena susamAhitaH .

nirmArjanIyo vR^iddhAbhirlavashcheti sa nAmataH .. 6..\\

eva.n kushalavau nAmnA tAvubhau yamajAtakau .

matkR^itabhyA.n cha namAbhyAM khyAtiyuktau bhaviShyataH .. 7..\\

te rakShA.n jagR^ihustAM cha munihastAtsamAhitAH .

akurvaMshcha tato rakShA.n tayorvigatakalmaShAH .. 8..\\

tathA tA.n kriyamANAM tu rakShAM gotraM cha nAma cha .

sa~NkIrtana.n cha rAmasya sItAyAH prasavau shubhau .. 9..\\

ardharAtre tu shatrughnaH shushrAva sumahatpriyam .

parNashAlA.n gato rAtrau diShTyA diShTyeti chAbravIt .. 10..\\

tatha tasya prahR^iShTasya shatrughnasya mahAtmanaH .

vyatItA vArShikI rAtriH shrAvaNI laghuvikramA .. 11..\\

prabhAte tu mahAvIryaH kR^itvA paurvAhNika.n kramam .

muniM prA~njalirAmantrya prAyAtpashchAnmukhaH punaH .. 12..\\

sa gatvA yamunAtIra.n saptarAtroShitaH pathi .

R^iShINAM puNyakIrtInAmAshrame vAsamabhyayAt .. 13..\\

sa tatra munibhiH sArdhaM bhArgavapramukhairnR^ipaH .

kathAbhirbahurUpAbhirvAsa.n chakre mahAyashAH .. 14..\\