Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 The sruti, other scriptures, the words of the sages and even the more enlightened Western philosophers all tell us that they cannot describe any ultimate truth - reality is far more subtle than our meagre intellect. At best, they can only be a 'finger pointing at the moon' or a 'thorn to remove a thorn'. This is reasonable and acceptable (if not always reassuring) but how much licence does this give them? Does it mean that source A can say one thing while source B says the complete opposite and still both can be pointing at the (same) moon? I am currently having problems reconciling what is said by modern sages (from Nisargadatta through to Wayne Liquorman and from Krishnamenon, who I haven't yet read, through to Francis Lucille) with the more traditional teachings of Advaita (such as the Upanishads, the Gita and Sankara). And yes, I know that people like Liquorman claim openly that sages DO contradict each other but one still expects that they ought to be saying 'more or less' the same sort of thing. I have felt an intuitive sympathy with Direct Path teachings for many years now. I am 'happy' (?) with ideas such as the following: - There is no individual who could become realised. There is no 'path' that can be followed. We cannot 'do' anything. There is no such thing as choice or free will, only the illusion of this; everything that will happen is effectively already determined. We act irrevocably according to our natures and events around us. There is no one who could die (only the material body reverting to its elements) and there is no one who could be born or re-born. There can be no such thing as reincarnation. All of this being the case, my questions are as follows. Why do the traditional approaches talk of those who are ignorant and those who have attained knowledge? In what way can there be all of the variously described ways to enlightenment - karma yoga, bhakti and jnana etc.? Why are we told that we have to act in certain ways, follow prescribed rituals or whatever? Why is so much effort and so many words devoted to explaining principles of karma and all the other concepts of advaita? And what of samsara? We are told that only humans can attain realisation; that we may have spent thousands (millions?) of lives, progressing through the various levels of existence; that now we have the opportunity to achieve enlightenment and escape from the eternal round of birth and death. It seems that Self-realisation is an almost random event, occurring 'through Grace'. All it means is that the related individual totally recognises the truth that he does nothing at all, that Consciousness acts through his body-mind without any 'individual' being involved. And this is fully accepted, bring peace and reconciliation. But there never was any individual and the Consciousness operating through that body-mind was never separate from the One Consciousness, which is all that there is. That event called realisation is only of any relevance for the remainder of the life of that body-mind. To talk of samsara or of someone now having escaped the wheel is quite meaningless. So what is the point of all of the confusing and ultimately misleading teachings in traditional Advaita? And, perhaps even more disturbing, what is the point of our following it and immersing ourselves in it (not that we have any choice!)? Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 >So what is the point of all of the confusing and ultimately misleading >teachings in traditional Advaita? And, perhaps even more disturbing, what is >the point of our following it and immersing ourselves in it (not that we >have any choice!)? > >Dennis Waavh! Dennis. I see you have already made several conclusions before asking! I am wondering what is the point of the mail since you have made many sweeping conclusions already. Conclusion without experimentation is unscientific! I hope to find some time to address the issues you have raised but I am sure there will be several others who can address these issues to their satisfaction. Hari Om! Sadananda K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Greetings Dennis: Namaskar, One of the human ingeneity is One of the human ingenuity is to fall into pitfalls even after knowing the consequences. No one can step a determined mind with such an attitude. We have the options to: understand and misunderstand; like and dislike; negotiate and confuse; believe and doubt; kind and rude; and stand and fall. To exercise these options, we do possess the discriminating intellect. In addition, the selection of the option is also influenced by our attitude - positive and negative. The options that choose mostly depends on this mental attitude. With a positive attitude and with an open mind, we become more receptive to ideas and willing to wait instead of making hasty conclusions. Shankara never imposed the Advaita Philosophy on anyone forcefully. This is an open forum and the purpose of this forum is change our negative tendencies into positive. This is not an easy task and we can agree or disagree on one or more aspects of the philosophy of life as spelled out by Shankara. His goal is not force anyone to immerse in what he said but force us to think and decide and develop a positive attitude of our life. As he has rightly said in Vivekachoodamani: " Human life is a rare opportunity; few among us get the opportunity to think and seek the truth and very few among us may realize the TRUTH." Let us not miss this golden opportunity! regards, Ram Chandran --- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote: > .......................quite meaningless. > So what is the point of all of the confusing and > ultimately misleading > teachings in traditional Advaita? And, perhaps even > more disturbing, what is > the point of our following it and immersing > ourselves in it (not that we > have any choice!)? > > Dennis > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Dearest Dennis hi. I find your enquiry a worthy one. I too have found life rather confusing at times. This is because basically we are unconditioned spirit free & boundless which has come into conditioned thought patterns through being indoctrinated by parents society etc. So from oneness unconditioned & free, we are also apparently more identified with the limited version that is presented to us as children. This we can call the personality (or personal self). We are bound by the boundaries of our conditioning as we enter this realm of matter. So it seems to me .. So our remembrance of our unity is forgotten or overshadowed. So meditation allows us to transcend this over identification with conditioned thoughts. It is true that in essence we are already One. We can say this is our unmanifest Self. :-) Our being. It is so pure it is free of conditioned thoughts. At times we get glimpses into this free witness Self observing, but not bound by the play ... But our attention is identified predominately with the manifest self which has been conditioned to think in limited ways, even about ourself. So we are not conscious of our unconditioned pure consciousness till we learn how to let go attachment to that false disguise. Meditation & teachings of the Great Masters like the ones you mention help us in this endeavour. I believe the teachings which focus on 'you are already free so you need DO nothing' are actually only for devotees who have reached quite an advanced stage on their path. So really there is yes a need to 'do' .. but ya know the 'doing' in a good meditation .. is really a 'not doing' anyway. I believe this is called surrender & devotion. Thanks for starting a good discussion, Peace, Col > It seems that Self-realisation is an almost random event, occurring 'through > Grace'. All it means is that the related individual totally recognises the > truth that he does nothing at all, that Consciousness acts through his > body-mind without any 'individual' being involved. And this is fully > accepted, bring peace and reconciliation. But there never was any individual > and the Consciousness operating through that body-mind was never separate > from the One Consciousness, which is all that there is. That event called > realisation is only of any relevance for the remainder of the life of that > body-mind. To talk of samsara or of someone now having escaped the wheel is > quite meaningless. > So what is the point of all of the confusing and ultimately misleading > teachings in traditional Advaita? And, perhaps even more disturbing, what is > the point of our following it and immersing ourselves in it (not that we > have any choice!)? > > Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 > >I believe the teachings which focus on 'you are already free so you need >DO nothing' are actually only for devotees who have reached quite an >advanced stage on their path. So really there is yes a need to 'do' .. but >ya know the 'doing' in a good meditation .. is really a 'not doing' >anyway. I believe this is called surrender & >devotion. > >Thanks for starting a good discussion, > >Peace, > >Col Colette that reminds me Swami Chinmayananda's story of 'Mr. Jones and the Rat' which I discussed some time back. To remind again - Mr. Jones suddenly got the feeling that he is a rat and not a man. Why he got the feeling? - we cannot provide a rational answer for that - all we can say is that it is 'anirvachaniiyam' - that is it is for inexplicable reason. When did he become a rat - that of course is a silly question since he is or was or will be never a rat. But Mr. Jones does not know that. He thinks he is rat from beginning-less time that he knew off, and since he got the feeling in his mind he was always a rat and never a man. The fact of the matter is that he has intense feeling that he is a rat. - So his wife took him to some authority, a psychiatrist when she failed to convince him by herself that he is not a rat but a man. Since Mr. Jones has lot more faith in the Doctor, especially when he is paying for the services; he slowly got convinced that he is a man and not rat. He knows in and out of what a man is and what a rat and why he is man and not rat. There was really no path for him to become a man since he was a man all the time. But he needs to sit few siting in the Doctor's office and pay hefty price to reflect in himself that he is man and not a rat. At last when Doctor, Mr. Jones and Mrs. Jones have realized that he know who he is, he was released from Doctor's care. But after an hour, Mr. Jones came running back knocking the Doctor's door, and gasping for his breath. When Doctor asked what is the problem, Mr. Jones said - 'Doctor I know I am a man and not a rat. But I am afraid that the cat in the street does not know that I am man and not a rat". - We are in the same state as Mr. Jones. Mr. Jones does not have to do anything to become a man since He is always a man and never a rat to start with. But Mr. Jones does not think so. He thinks he is a rat and to solve his problem he has to become a man - he has to gain that tansendental experience that he is man and not a rat. So doctor told him to sit in intense meditation and contemplate that 'aham narosmi' - I am a man - I am that - tat twam asi - etc. Now how long he has to sit in meditation to realize that he is indeed a man and not a rat. Does he have any other alternatives? - It has to firmly sink into him mind that He indeed is a man now and for ever. He himself has to get fully and firmly convinced what he is. He does not have to do any thing to become since he is what he is looking for. But he does not know that. One can say like Dennis points out that one can wait for ramdomness to operate! one can randamly gains the knowledge that one is a man and not a rat. Of course one can relay on that chance, or take that chance and wait for your chance to become a man! Or one can start brain wash yourself that you are indeed a man and not a rat! - It is your choice to choose Dennis- Since you do not belief in free will your choices are limited or none, since there is no will to choose. Of course Mr. Jones has a choice to keep hiding himslef from all the cats that he sees till that randomness hits him or sit in meditation and contemplate why he is not a rat but a man till the knowledge of what he really is sinks into him. Yes it is a path less land - I am what I am seeking - but as long as I am seeking I have not realized what truly I am. Hence mananam to remove all doubts in the mind and nidhidhyaasanam to own that knowledge that I am what I am - not the body, mind or intellect that I take my self to be. That is the purpose of the meditation. This is the purpose of the discussions and this is purpose of the advaitin list. Hari Om! Sadananda K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.