Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 I appreciate your comments about not 'discarding anything' until true understanding arrives. However, I do not see the Gods and Godesses as you claim. Yes, there are occasions when I can feel wonder at the sights and other perceptions about me in the world. There have even been one or two occasions when I have felt unity with all of this. But I have seen no need to assign divinity to anything. Is it not simply wonder, mystery and ignorance that have caused man to invent gods to 'explain' what he does not understand? Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 You can see what you want to see, when ever you want to see. Same is the case with divine presence. :-) A vision of mortal eyes will not reveal anything unless those eyes have the help of the consciousness. Our ancient hindu texts say: "Know who they are before approaching them. Know what they can do before approaching them." Seers have brought down mantras after having witnessed the power of the God/Goddess, who sustains that mantra. They also gave a very good description about each God/Goddess, how they look and where to seek them! All those texts are crystal clear. A person who has firm faith in those esoteric texts, and who can go by the book and perform can witness all this. It is the question of faith and practice. It is also a question of the need. Some people approach the demi-gods with a specific purpose. Some people invoke them with curiocity to see them. There are lots of episodes in the book "Shankara Vijaya" (Adishankara's story) about Shankara meeting the demi-gods. Remember the episode where Shankara feels pity for the poor old woman and invokes Goddess Lakshmi with "Kanakadhara stava". I wouldn't believe that Adi Shankara invented the Goddess Lakshmi just to explain the phenomenon which has taken place! Though I shouldn't write this, but I am compelled to write: I believe --- that which westerners called as phenomenon is nothing but "possible through practice" techniques for anicient hindus. There are certain powers one can gain through practice, by invoking certain demi-gods. It is a science, which the modern day scientists have yet to conquer. The day that Russian Sub-Marine went down, I dreamt of it. I felt that there is a big ship going down the ocean. I saw lots of deadbodies, I saw 15 people screaming, who were still alive. I started shouting to save them. My wife, who was sleeping next to me forcedly woke me up. She told me that I am shouting about people who are in desperate need for help. I explained her that some where a big ship is in trouble. It is underwater.... My wife believes that what you dream is nothing but what you perceive during your waking time. She has her doctorate in Mathematics, from a prestigius institution in India, and she working as a Professor of Mathematics. You know what she told me, the moment I explained her that a ship is going down? She told me, I might have made it up, dreamt it because I went to deep sea diving that day (I am a PADI certified diver). I went under water that day and may be dreaming something related to sea. Well! I also believed her, though my experience proved to me that what I sometimes dream is a reality happening somewhere in this universe.. I couldn't sleep to again witness those helpless people! Next day morning, my wife called me at work. She said, since no papers or CNN have reported that event, my dream is not true. I also searched in papers but I coulnd't find any news of any such happening! But the next night again I see that in my dream a few people remained alive. This time I am sure... I told my wife that I am sure. Well! finally the day after CNN announced that there is something wrong with the Russion Sub. I feel sad for those people. You know, when you go underwater you keep hearing different sounds. And you can't be in a position to pinpoint where the sound originated from, even you are attentive, you have to literally see everywhere in order to find the origination of sound. We are all ripples in the ocean of consciousness. The events which happen create a sound, you may feel it but you can't pinpoint it! Do you know, witnessing the events, which are happening some where in the world, is called as a "Siddhi" in our India? There is a mantra and an adhisthana devata which bestow this power to you. You have to perform a prescribed ritual in order to possess this power. But then there is a horrifying face to this reality. Who would like to watch the death forehand? Who would like to have nightmares? People prefer a sleep with a sedative rather than having a nightmare... Given a chance, nobody would dare watch the death. But the Mantra is neutral, it keeps reporting you the events, irrespective whether it is good or bad! You know the departed souls force invoke the Mantra devata in order to convey their plight to the medium who can talk to the adhisthana devata. I am not claiming a superior status by narrating this incident. Please forgive me if I did hurt your feelings by narrating about such powers. But I wanted to openly tell that they are as true as they could be... We are all connected. And there is a science which is deliberately ignored in the name of rationalism. Believe our Seers, and learn from thier teachings before they get eaten away by thermites. Unless we learn them and pass it on to our future generations, they may remain as fascinating stories for our children to talk. - Dennis Waite <dwaite <advaitin > Thursday, August 24, 2000 12:06 AM RE: Doing - me or God - Madhava > I appreciate your comments about not 'discarding anything' until true > understanding arrives. However, I do not see the Gods and Godesses as you > claim. Yes, there are occasions when I can feel wonder at the sights and > other perceptions about me in the world. There have even been one or two > occasions when I have felt unity with all of this. But I have seen no need > to assign divinity to anything. Is it not simply wonder, mystery and > ignorance that have caused man to invent gods to 'explain' what he does not > understand? > > Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 Is it not simply wonder, mystery and >ignorance that have caused man to invent gods to 'explain' what he does not >understand? > >Dennis You are right on the button. Did God created man or man created God? I think man created God so that He can create Man and the rest of the universe. In advata, creation is not differet from creation. ' puurnaat purnam udaschyate' - from completeness, I, the completeness, the universe, is born, sustained and goes back into. God is factor brought in to expain the creation and once it is realized that creation itself is my own projection, God along with his creation is dissolved back into myself, the ever existent and eternal. This infact happens everyday when we go to deep sleep -- the whole creation is abosorbed along with the creator. 'I' alone remains. Yes Igonorence is the basic cause for all this. Hari Om! Sadananda K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 Hari Om Madhavaji: Your reply to Sri Dennis is a nice summary integrating the role of faith in Hindu Religion in general and Advaita Philophy in particular. I remember the saying, sky is only the limit for what we want to be. For what we want to see, even sky will not be a limit. These statments and everthing that we do requires faith. If we say that we don't need any faith in what we do just confirms our ignorance! St. Augustine who once said, "Faith is to believe what we don't see and the reward is to see what we believe" will support what you have said in your posting. Most important, there is strong support from Shankara Bhagavadpada in what you have described. The views of Shankara's Bhagavadpada as explained by the head of Shankara Mutt at Kanchipuram is enclosed below. Those who want to clear doubts regarding 'God' should read the enclosed essay. Thanks again Madhavaji for sharing your wisdom, warmest regards, Ram Chandran =============================================== Section of the homepage with the title "Sri Sankara Bhagavatpada" by His Holiness Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati Mahaswamigal (Website: http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/1-1.html) =============================================== Sri Sankara Bhagavatpada taught us the truth that all the deities we hereditarily worship are but the manifestations of the One supreme Paramaatma. He established the worship of the moorthies of Siva, Vishnu, Ambika, Surya, Vinayaka and Subrahmanya all sanctified in the Vedas, and each having a specific Gayatri Mantra. If worshipped with devotion. all of them will enable us to attain the paramaatma, proclaimed by the Vedas as Sat Purusha, or Brahman. In that way he established the practical interpretation of the Gita teaching. Yo yo yaam Yaam tanum bhaktah sraddhaya architum icchati; Tasya tasyaachalaam shraddhaam Taam eva vidadhaamyaham and came to be known as Shanmatasthaa-panaacharya. He traveled in all the 56 kingdoms of this country, where the Vedas were prevalent, and proclaimed the Advaitic principle of Oneness of God. Like the same God who is within us and within everything we perceive, the seer, the seen and the seeing (drashta, drisyam and drishti) are all aspects of the same paramaatma. In darkness, a rope is mistaken for a snake. But when examined with a light, we will find that the supposed snake is only a rope. The superimposed snake disappears, when disappears, when light (knowledge) is thrown on it. Even for an illusion, there must be a basis in reality. the bases in the above example being the rope. All illusion will be superimposed on truth, and conversely what remains after the illusion is dispelled is the truth. When a person wakes up from a dream, everything seen and felt in the dream disappears, and what remains is only the dreamer. It means that we project ourselves into the objects of our dream. When the dream passes away on the dawn of awakening, we realise that there is nothing outside us. Similarly, the reflection in a mirror has no substantiality, but is only an appearance of what already exists. When we realise, with the aid of jnana, that God is the only ultimate Truth and everything else is illusion, anger, desire, hatred, pain, grief and other emotions will not affect us. We begin to dwell in the fullness of Supreme Bliss. This idea is clearly brought out by Sri Sankara Bhagavatpada in the first verse of his Sri Dakshinamurti Ashtaam. Visvam darpana drisyamaana nagaree tulyam nijaantargatam, Pasyannatmani maayayaa bahirivodbhootam yathaa nidrayaa; Yah saakshaatkurute prabodhasamaye svaatmaana-mevaadvayam, Tasmai sreegurumoortaye nama idam Sree Dakshinaa-moortaye. The last verse in this Ashtakam is : Bhoorambhamsyanolo anilombaramaharnaatho himaamsu:pumaan, Ityaabhaati charaacharaatmakam idam yasyaiva moortyashtakam! Naanyat kincanavaidyate vimrusataam yasmaat parasmaad vibho Tasmai Sree gurumoortaye nama idam Sree Dakshinaa-moortaye!! The verse points out that earth, water, fire, air, ether, Sun, moon, and purusha are all one. Paramesvara bears the name of Ashtamurti and it is He who appears in the eight forms enumerated above. Therefore, when we turn our thoughts inward and make some research, we arrive at the realisation that Paramatma is the Ultimate Truth. We cease to covet anything. But this does not imply inaction; on the other hand, for the welfare of the word (lodasamgraha), each of us has to perform the duty assigned to him. when we do so with the Advaitic consciousness of oneness of God we shall be able to perform our duties, freed from every attachment. The Acharya made his appearance in the world to teach us this great truth and has, thereby, rendered an invaluable service to humanity. By paying homage to this great religious and spiritual preceptor, who reoriented philosophic thought to its Upanishadic traditions and whose achievements within a short span of life is unparalleled in history, we shall earn his grace which will guide us along the path of God-realisation. It is due to Sri Bhagavatpada and his compositions in praise of the different manifestations of God that a new life has come to be breathed into temple worship and the festivals associated with temples. Had it not been for him the observance of such festivals like Janmashtami, Vinayaka Chaturthi, Sri Rama Navami and Sivaratri in our homes would have ceased owing to the spread of atheism. Our elders, who profited from the teachings of Bhagavatpada, adhered to the various religious observances. It is their abundant faith that is responsible for the continuance of these observance even today, in spite of the neglect of succeeding generations. By his upadesa, Sri Adi Sankara became a Jagadguru (world teacher) in the fullest meaning of that expression. We are proud to call ourselves his followers and to pay homage to him. But there is one drawback in us, and that is, we do not live up to the advice tendered by him. Each one of us is enjoined to perform the daily anushtanaas prescribed for him, to worship the deity hereditarily worshipped, and to meditate on the mantra given to him by a guru. But unfortunately, in these days, we think of God only when faced with some calamity, and begin to do this pooja or that. Of what avail are these special poojas and rituals, if we have not built up our spiritual life on the bases of the anushtaanaas, enjoined upon us? In fact these special rituals to ward off a threatened calamity may not become necessary at all if we had been strictly adhering to our anushtaanaas, which are the means by which man can acquire the fund of divine grace without which not an atom will move in this universe. In the absence of this basic requirement, whatever else we do later on, will not bear fruit. ========================================= --- Madhava K Turumella <madhava wrote: > You can see what you want to see, when ever you want > to see. Same is the > case with divine presence. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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