reverence, shraddha etc [was exchange of information with Advaita-L]

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Patrick Kenny wrote:

> [...]

>

> So to bring matters to a head let me ask

> (1) Is the distinction between vyavahaara or paramaarthika made

> anywhere in the Upanishads or in the Gita?

> (2) Does this distinction exist anywhere outside of Advaita?

> (3) Does it serve any purpose other than to paper over the

> contradictions in Advaita?

> (4) Is this a forum in which fundamental questions like these can be

> debated?

>

> Regards,

>

> Patrick

>

 

namaste.

 

I changed the subject header as the new title reflects more what

I wish to say.

 

Answers as per my understanding to Patrick's questions.

 

1. Yes, upanishads do discuss this. Two instances come to mind.

(i) MuNDAka upanishad discusses para and apara vidyA (the

higher and the lower knowledge). It says the Self-knowledge,

Atma vidyA is the higher knowledge. All the sciences and

arts, and it lists many of them, belong to the lower knowledge.

(ii)ChAndogya upanishad gives a discussion between Narada and

SanatkumAra. Narada says that he has studied all sciences

and arts (and he lists what he has studied) but still finds

unhappiness and he requests SanatkumAra to teach him Atma

vidya. There again, distinction is made between what we

presently call paramArthika and vyavahArika. Examples from

bhagavadgItA have already been given.

2. I cannot comment on that emphatically.

3. If we are students of Atma vidyA, we should know what we are

learning and the distinction from the day-to-day worldly

knowledge. Thus papering over contradictions in advaita does

not arise.

4. Yes, it is indeed. I would take it that way.

 

Having said the above, let me express another point which I hope

List members take it in the proper perspective. Some List members

seem to be approaching advaita in a doubtful way, with the intellect

making them ask questions such as above. Atma vidyA, the Self-Knowledge

which we are striving to get, is different from the empirical sciences.

The necessary qualification for this is the earnestness with which we

strive for this, the reverence which we show for this Knowledge.

There is nothing outside us, so we are not showing reverence to any

external agency as the word reverence is usually understood. But it

is extremely important that for this Knowledge to dawn on us (please

remember this knowledge cannot be dictated), certain shraddha is

required. Without that, all the study will be intellectual only,

and the Knowledge and the knower will be separate, unless and until

that shraddha takes over.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

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[Guest guest]

 

Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

advaitin <advaitin >

Saturday, August 26, 2000 9:00 PM

reverence, shraddha etc [was Re: exchange of information

with Advaita-L]

 

 

[...]

>Having said the above, let me express another point which I hope

>List members take it in the proper perspective. Some List members

>seem to be approaching advaita in a doubtful way, with the intellect

>making them ask questions such as above. Atma vidyA, the Self-Knowledge

>which we are striving to get, is different from the empirical sciences.

>The necessary qualification for this is the earnestness with which we

>strive for this, the reverence which we show for this Knowledge.

>There is nothing outside us, so we are not showing reverence to any

>external agency as the word reverence is usually understood. But it

>is extremely important that for this Knowledge to dawn on us (please

>remember this knowledge cannot be dictated), certain shraddha is

>required. Without that, all the study will be intellectual only,

>and the Knowledge and the knower will be separate, unless and until

>that shraddha takes over.

 

I, for one, fully acknowledge your point here. But you must also realize

that this shraddha can't be had by a simple act of will. Or, if it can, it

will be of a very provisional and transitory nature, and probably not what

you have in mind. In essence, my series of questions about 'making it real'

was on how to become driven by shraddha, and it's something that I'm still

wondering about. It seems that either you have it or you don't, and if you

don't there is very little you can do about it. Sometimes I think it's a

sort failure of imagination on the part of the individual. Not in the sense

of imagining something that isn't real, but of having the creative insight

and impulse seriously to entertain the notion that the world and ourselves

really could be radically different than we seem as gathered from ordinary

experience. How does one 'get' that impulse on a consistent basis? I have no

clue. You have raised a critical point, but it gives rise to more questions

than answers...

 

Robert.

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2000, Robert Watson wrote:

>

> I, for one, fully acknowledge your point here. But you must also realize

> that this shraddha can't be had by a simple act of will. Or, if it can, it

> will be of a very provisional and transitory nature, and probably not what

> you have in mind. In essence, my series of questions about 'making it real'

> was on how to become driven by shraddha, and it's something that I'm still

> wondering about. It seems that either you have it or you don't, and if you

> don't there is very little you can do about it. Sometimes I think it's a

> sort failure of imagination on the part of the individual. Not in the sense

> of imagining something that isn't real, but of having the creative insight

> and impulse seriously to entertain the notion that the world and ourselves

> really could be radically different than we seem as gathered from ordinary

> experience. How does one 'get' that impulse on a consistent basis? I have no

> clue. You have raised a critical point, but it gives rise to more questions

> than answers...

>

> Robert.

>

 

namaste

 

Yes, shraddha cannot be had by a simple act of will, but the

intellect can be trained so that shraddha will evolve.

 

One way to do this is to make the intellect look at daily activities

in pratipakshabhAva, i.e.: now our mind and intellect are tuned to

look at things one way. Let the mind and intellect explore the

alternative way, what, if there is an alternate way to look at things.

shri shankara's bhajagovindam text is a very good example of this

pratipakshabhAva. It looks at the day-to-day events in life in an

alternate way. It certainly dawns on the right mind with proper

preparation, everything is so simple; no need of any intense study.

Just let the mind (which is ripe and striving for Self-knowledge)

look at things differently. One will see the beauty of advaita.

shraddha takes over automatically. I strongly recommend bhajagovindam

text and contemplation on it for this.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

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