sanyasa

[Guest guest]

The word sanyasa can mean two things. Technically,absolving one from duties

as an householder,and contemplating upon theSelf.

Two brahmacharis were returning to the ashram after collecting alms in

town.one of them noticed a beautiful girl drowning in the river.He promptly

dove in and brought her to the banks.While returning to the ashram,the second

brahmachari kept scolding the first about touching a young woman which is not

recomended.FInali at the ashram door,the first brahmachari said ,Friend, I

left the young lady at the riverbanks.Let us leave her before we enter the

ashram.This story correctly defines true sanyasa.As per this definition,king

janaka was asanyasin.Sanyasa is a mental renunciation of external world,and

indulgence in the self.Is this understanding correct? nirmala and suresh.

[Guest guest]

Limaye's wrote:

>

>The word sanyasa can mean two things. Technically,absolving one from duties

>as an householder,and contemplating upon theSelf.

>Two brahmacharis were returning to the ashram after collecting alms in

>town.one of them noticed a beautiful girl drowning in the river.He promptly

>dove in and brought her to the banks.While returning to the ashram,the second

>brahmachari kept scolding the first about touching a young woman which is not

>recomended.FInali at the ashram door,the first brahmachari said ,Friend, I

>left the young lady at the riverbanks.Let us leave her before we enter the

>ashram.This story correctly defines true sanyasa.As per this definition,king

>janaka was asanyasin.Sanyasa is a mental renunciation of external world,and

>indulgence in the self.Is this understanding correct? nirmala and suresh.

 

Nirmala and Suresh - Greetings.

 

What you say is right - from theoretical point!

 

Mental renunciation is the absolute requirement - That is complete

detachement or complete surrender or prapatti etc but that can occur in

absolute sense only when my mind is fully absorbed in the state of

Brahman. In that sense, realization of my true nature occurs when the

renounce my false nature and the otherway around - the two interlinked.

 

But now let us come down to practical aspect. What Vidyashankar

emphasizes which is echoed by generation of advaitic teachers is that

external sanyaasa would help in gaining the requisite detachment since

shama and dama is rather difficult to achieve in the environment where

attachment is the govering factor of life - wife, husband - children -

house to hold - worries about what happens to this and that etc. etc. - By

chaning the robes by themselves will not help either - as you can see. But

proper environment would minimize unnecesorry agitations and if there is

nothing to remind those, they get burried away as - dhyaayato visshayaan

..... sloka says.

 

In my understanding, to claim that sanyaasa is essential requirement for

moksha does not make sense from the point of moksha -Renounciation is

essential but external sanyaasa is the efficient way to arrive at cannot

be denied either. Becuase it is not essential - there are exceptions.

Whether one falls into the category of exceptions one shold know better! -

If one is Nachiketa - no sanyaasa is necessory - direct from brahmacharya!

 

I pushed this topic aside as an accadamic question - since when we are

ready we will take it and not to worry about it till then. Either way

mental renounciation is essential and that we should try if we can. If

external enviroment can be adjusted to suite the innter tranquility to

accomplish that - the better we are.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

There is no need to pit mental sannyAsa against physical sannyAsa. It

is meaningless to say that it is only mental sannyAsa that is

important and not physical sannyAsa. To emphasize that, compare it

with, "it is more important to be mentally chaste than physically

chaste". Isn't it meaningless?. Even if one is not mentally chaste,

physical chastity will eventually lead one to that. If one is not

physically chaste, then it is *hypocritical* to talk of mental

chastity.

 

 

sannyAsa will help to overcome attachment and remove the unnecessary

obstacles that come in the way of removing avidyA. If one is not

incapable of taking sannyAsa, then one will better off keeping silent

than talk about mental sannyAsa vs physical.

 

Ramakrishna beautifully states the state of a householder. Living in a

room full of soot can one come out spotless?

 

 

 

----------

Then, what can one enmeshed in samsara do?. vaLLuvar beautifully

summarizes it

 

paRRuga paRRaRRaan paRRinai - appaRRai

paRRuga paRRa viDaRku

 

Bond yourself with the Bondless (that is God), that bond (you have

with God) will release you from all other bonds.

 

Attachment to God will lead to detachment from all others. Commenting

on the verse paramAcharya gives a good example. In villages women

carry a bundle of fire wood ties with a rope on their head. While

walking the wood moves and sometimess the knot becomes difficult to

remove. To untie it, they take another rope and tighten the bundle

(without actually tying it). It compacts the bundle, and the original

rope tied to the bundle can be removed by slipping it to the side. The

additional rope used to compact the bundle was never tied, so there is

no question of untying it.

 

In this context, the attachment to God is not an attachment in the

sense that word is used. It does not lead to bondage. If you say it

will, then one could say it is better than moxam itself!

 

nAham sahe tava katha shravAntarAyam

nAham sahe tava padArchana vichyutim vaa

moxam dishaitata viruddham idam na chet syaat

naivaastu maataH apavarga mahopasargaH

nIlakaNTha dIxita

aananda saagara stavaH

 

 

 

---

 

BTW, I am not a sannyAsi. I am very much in bondage and the only hope

I have is the lotus feet of Divine Mother. And I see no scope for

taking sannyAsam for another 40 years! Much to my chagrin my naaDi

says I will not be a sannyAsi in my next birth either !!

[Guest guest]

-----------

> Ravi Mayavaram

> Then, what can one enmeshed in samsara do?. vaLLuvar beautifully

> summarizes it

>

> paRRuga paRRaRRaan paRRinai - appaRRai

> paRRuga paRRa viDaRku

>

> Bond yourself with the Bondless (that is God), that bond (you have

> with God) will release you from all other bonds.

>

>

[Madhava Replies:]

It is beautifully said! Thank you.

 

I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1) vidvat (2)

vijeegisha

 

(1) "Vidvat sanyasa" is taken by them who have gained the right

knowledge about the world. They leave the world, *after* knowing the world.

You can find householders as well as sanyaasis, who have renounced thus,

irrespective of their robe.

 

(2) "Vigeegisha sanyasa" is taken by the people, who are either

curious to know the highest truth, or the people who have suffered enough in

this world. Most of the people, when struck by a calamity such as loosing

their kith and kin, heavy losses in business and so on...

 

It is very much helpful to take vigeegisha sanyasa because the robes

you wear, keep continuously reminding you about your *once* burining desire

to seek liberation, to seek an answer. People tend to forget the tormants

which they underwent after certain period of time, they ignore the misery

which they underwent. Hence, the desire to take sanyasa may *die*. Where

as, if you took sanyasa, it keeps reminding you about your desire to seek

liberation.

 

"One should not deside to be a sanyasi. If he does, then he should

not leave it at any cost" that is the rule. There were certain exceptions

were made for this rule, and certain rules to this. Remember, all the

above and below is for *vigeegisha sanyasa" only.

 

Rule No 1: A sanyasi, who takes "vigeegisha sanyasa" should

*completely* tell about his life to his teacher, or Sanyasa deeksha guru

(who is offering the robes to him)

 

Rule No 2: With out the prior permission of the teacher, the

vigeegisha sanyasi should never leave his teacher.

 

You all know about our famous saint "Jnanadev", who wrote a great

book on advaita called "AmrutAnubhava". His father took vigeegisha sanyasa!

After getting married, he runs away from home thinking that being a

householder is misery. But then, his wife (jnAnadEv's mother) felt very

bad. Because, her in-laws started accusing her for all nonsense reasons,

which drove away their son to himalayas. Finally, they go searching for

him. They find him at an ashram in Kasi (vaaraNaSi) as a sanyaasi. And his

guru does not know that he is already married, because Jnanadev's father did

not tell that truth to his teacher, thus breking RULE NO.1.

 

So the guru instructs him to perform his duty as a husband. But by

that time, Jnanadev's father is realized, he became a *vidvat* sanyAsi. He

readily accepts his teachers instruction and goes back to Samsara. That is

how he gave birth to 4 saintly children in this world. (1) jAnadEv (2)

nAmadEv (3) Vamadev (4) Muktabai (a baby girl).

 

How ever, society played a cruel rule in their life. They refused

to take these children in to schools, saying that Jnanadev's father broke

both the Ashram rules (i.e. sanyasa and samsara). They believed that these

little children are children of devil. Because noone in his right sense

will leave the sanyasa to become a samsAri. Hence, Jnanadev's father

finally desides to give a future to his children. He goes in front of the

village court and seeks a punishment. The village court says that if they

both die, leaving the children as orphans, then the village could look after

them.

 

With out thiking a second, Jnanadev's parents commit suiside in the

village river, thiking that their children will be looked after by the

villagers. But that also didn't happen....

 

I believe, Society sets the rules, but only wisemen can understand

the reality behind it. Trying to follow the wise with out knowing their

capacity is just like a fly falling into the electricity trap, thiking that

it is moon.

 

One should know, what he is doing, before he desides to do it. That

will save him and teacher both!

 

I would recommend a book called "sanyAsa Ashram dharma" written by

Sri Malayala Swamy, Verpedu Ashram, Chittor District, Andhrapradesh.

 

 

> ---

>

> BTW, I am not a sannyAsi. I am very much in bondage and the only hope

> I have is the lotus feet of Divine Mother. And I see no scope for

> taking sannyAsam for another 40 years! Much to my chagrin my naaDi

> says I will not be a sannyAsi in my next birth either !!

>

[Madhava Replies:]

 

Ravigaru, :-) :-) is that an excuse! :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

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[Guest guest]

Hari Om Nirmala & Suresh:

 

Namaskar,

 

Your example story illustrates that the definition of

'sanyass' is subjective and it depends on the

'swadharma' of the sanyasi. Any judgement of a sanyasi

using our framework is likely to be erroneous.

 

If we entertain intellectual analysis of the example

story, we can create many questions (puzzles) with no

clear answer:

 

1. Did Sanyasi 1 commit any violation?

2. Did Sanyasi 2 follow the rules of sanyasi?

3. Who has the right to determine right and wrong?

4. Why did the Sanyasi leave the girl on the river

bed?

5. Why didn't the Sanyasi check that the girl is safe?

6. Who is a better Sanyasi among the two?

- the one who renounce the sight of the girl or

- the one who made an half-hearted attempt

 

Essentially, if there is no guilt feeling within the

minds of the sanyasis, they have renounced

'unnecessary thoughts.' The rest of us enjoy

entertaining the thoughts of 'right and wrong' and

suffer from the resulting pains!

 

At the end, we are back to square 1. The question, who

is a sanyasi is not the same as the trivial questions

such as, who is a teacher, lawyer, doctor, father or

mother. We can easily understand answers to such

questions. The question, who is a sanyasi is the same

as asking, who is Brahman? The answer is everyone is a

sanyasi provided the person doesn't entertain

thoughts.

Where to begin to reach this end stage? According to

Shankara's advaita tradition, one has to practice

physical renounciation as a starting point. This does

not employ that everyone starts with a physical

renounciation will end up at the end point. Also, it

doesn't imply there no one can achieve mental

renounciation without following physical

renounciation. There is overwhelming evidence for the

application of 'shraddha' and 'sadhana' to reach the

final goal.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

hariH OM!

 

it's important to acknowledge and honor the status

or state of evolution of each particular soul,

including its temperaments and needs concerning

various belief systems (viz. rituals adopted,

methodologies in practical philosophies held, etc).

therefore, generally speaking, giving advice as

to one approach over another, should be sensitive

to the individual concerned. however, we should

also bear in mind that on a list such as ours

[being dedicated to advaita, which is based on the

jnanmarga or path of knowledge], the direction of

the advice can and should be more topic-specific.

as such, speaking in terms of sanyas, the mental

approach of renunciation--technically leading to

the renunciation of the separative jiva or ego--

isn't out of place in these dialogues. quite

the contrary.

 

it could be argued that adopting advaita itself

may encompass multiple applications of sanyasa,

including of course the traditional vigeegisha

sanyasa. and that is all well and good. however,

within the rubric of advaita it wouldn't either be

wrong to *emphasize* the mental over the physical

[or the spirit of the thing over the letter],

simply because, again, the very uptake of advaita

(aka jnanayoga) clearly emphasises the mental.

 

in light of this it could be said that the mental

is the offspring of the physical, just as jnanayog

is the offspring of bhakthi (while concurrently

it also encompasses bhakthi [specifically applied

if/when the individual experiences periods of

flights into the separative ego, bhakthi clearly

proves to be the most effective counterweapon]).

 

conversely, it isn't either wrong to maintain the

focus on the path of jnana--honing in as it does

on the mental--which serves as the higher turn of

the spiral of one's applicable tapas.

 

advaitam wants to be radical.

astavakra gita should be studied!

 

namaste

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

wrote:

> -----------

>

> I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1)

vidvat (2)

> vijeegisha

>

 

They are vidvat and vidvishA. Jaldhar Vyas in the series on jIvamukti

viveka of svAmi vidyAraNya, discussed about these. Also Vidyasankar

Sundaresan in some of his posts. If you search using "vidvisha" in

Escribe archives of advaita-L you will find it. First time I

encountered these words was in Autobiography of a Yogi, were Swami

Yukteshwar initiates Swami Yogananda to vidvat sannyAsa.

 

 

 

Thanks for the very interesting episode from Saint jnAnadev's life.

Shirdi Saibaba used to recommend his works to his devotees. If I am

not mistaken, Dr. M. Giridhar had Jnanadev's life in his collection

of biographies.

>

>

> > ---

> >

> > BTW, I am not a sannyAsi. I am very much in bondage and the only

hope

> > I have is the lotus feet of Divine Mother. And I see no scope for

> > taking sannyAsam for another 40 years! Much to my chagrin my naaDi

> > says I will not be a sannyAsi in my next birth either !!

> >

> [Madhava Replies:]

>

> Ravigaru, :-) :-) is that an excuse! :-)

 

 

You can call me Ravi. I have tentatively fixed the age of my body as

25. I will revise the number after another 25 years :-))

 

 

The key is one should know his limitations. Earlier, I used to

overestimate my capability without knowing my weaknesses. At least now

I am trying not to. Personally I don't believe in the mental sannyAsa

stuff. In my view the only option I have is to cultivate devotion

towards God. And train the mind to direct its thoughts towards HER. Of

course it will take time, vAsana-s do not die that easily. In any

case, the solace comes from verse 11 of shivAnandalaharI.

 

vaTurvaa gehii vaa yatirapi jaTii vaa taditaro

naro vaa yaH kashchidbhavatu bhava kiM tena bhavati |

yadiiyaM hR^itpadmaM yadi bhavadadhiinaM pashupate

tadiiyastvaM shaMbho bhavasi bhavabhaaraM cha vahasi || 11||

 

It really then does not matter whether one is a sannyAsi or not, and

one need not take cover under the pretense of mental sannyAsa.

 

 

AUM namaH shivAyai cha namaH shivAya

 

Ravi

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ravi for correcting me on "Vidvisha" sanyasa. It never occured to

me that the word I have been having on my notes is wrong! I shall correct

it immediately. Thank you very much once again for pointing out the

articles related to sanyasa. I shall read them and get back to you.

 

Yours,

Madhava

 

-

" Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii

<advaitin >

Tuesday, September 26, 2000 11:38 PM

Re: sanyasa

 

> advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

> wrote:

> > -----------

>

> >

> > I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1)

> vidvat (2)

> > vijeegisha

> >

>

> They are vidvat and vidvishA. Jaldhar Vyas in the series on jIvamukti

> viveka of svAmi vidyAraNya, discussed about these. Also Vidyasankar

> Sundaresan in some of his posts. If you search using "vidvisha" in

> Escribe archives of advaita-L you will find it. First time I

> encountered these words was in Autobiography of a Yogi, were Swami

> Yukteshwar initiates Swami Yogananda to vidvat sannyAsa.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

It seems to me that sanyasa means giving up attachment to desires.

One can do that amidst all of ones erstwhile desires. Becoming what

we are pranaeaswara.

 

There is no end to moksha for the animal jivas are coming up. Like

the

universe and 'creation', there is no beginning but an end to it.Wake

up!! I qualify that with Sankara's advice that is real whilst we are

in it. We have to deal with it and our karmas, and observe Ahimsa.

 

This is my feeling on it.

 

Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

 

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

wrote:

> -----------

> > Ravi Mayavaram

> > Then, what can one enmeshed in samsara do?. vaLLuvar beautifully

> > summarizes it

> >

> > paRRuga paRRaRRaan paRRinai - appaRRai

> > paRRuga paRRa viDaRku

> >

> > Bond yourself with the Bondless (that is God), that bond (you have

> > with God) will release you from all other bonds.

> >

> >

> [Madhava Replies:]

> It is beautifully said! Thank you.

>

> I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1)

vidvat (2)

> vijeegisha

>

> (1) "Vidvat sanyasa" is taken by them who have gained the

right

> knowledge about the world. They leave the world, *after* knowing

the

world.

> You can find householders as well as sanyaasis, who have renounced

thus,

> irrespective of their robe.

>

> (2) "Vigeegisha sanyasa" is taken by the people, who are

either

> curious to know the highest truth, or the people who have suffered

enough in

> this world. Most of the people, when struck by a calamity such as

loosing

> their kith and kin, heavy losses in business and so on...

>

> It is very much helpful to take vigeegisha sanyasa because the

robes

> you wear, keep continuously reminding you about your *once*

burining

desire

> to seek liberation, to seek an answer. People tend to forget the

tormants

> which they underwent after certain period of time, they ignore the

misery

> which they underwent. Hence, the desire to take sanyasa may *die*.

Where

> as, if you took sanyasa, it keeps reminding you about your desire

to

seek

> liberation.

>

> "One should not deside to be a sanyasi. If he does, then he

should

> not leave it at any cost" that is the rule. There were certain

exceptions

> were made for this rule, and certain rules to this. Remember, all

the

> above and below is for *vigeegisha sanyasa" only.

>

> Rule No 1: A sanyasi, who takes "vigeegisha sanyasa" should

> *completely* tell about his life to his teacher, or Sanyasa deeksha

guru

> (who is offering the robes to him)

>

> Rule No 2: With out the prior permission of the teacher, the

> vigeegisha sanyasi should never leave his teacher.

>

> You all know about our famous saint "Jnanadev", who wrote a

great

> book on advaita called "AmrutAnubhava". His father took vigeegisha

sanyasa!

> After getting married, he runs away from home thinking that being a

> householder is misery. But then, his wife (jnAnadEv's mother) felt

very

> bad. Because, her in-laws started accusing her for all nonsense

reasons,

> which drove away their son to himalayas. Finally, they go

searching

for

> him. They find him at an ashram in Kasi (vaaraNaSi) as a sanyaasi.

And his

> guru does not know that he is already married, because Jnanadev's

father did

> not tell that truth to his teacher, thus breking RULE NO.1.

>

> So the guru instructs him to perform his duty as a husband.

But by

> that time, Jnanadev's father is realized, he became a *vidvat*

sanyAsi. He

> readily accepts his teachers instruction and goes back to Samsara.

That is

> how he gave birth to 4 saintly children in this world. (1) jAnadEv

(2)

> nAmadEv (3) Vamadev (4) Muktabai (a baby girl).

>

> How ever, society played a cruel rule in their life. They

refused

> to take these children in to schools, saying that Jnanadev's father

broke

> both the Ashram rules (i.e. sanyasa and samsara). They believed

that these

> little children are children of devil. Because noone in his right

sense

> will leave the sanyasa to become a samsAri. Hence, Jnanadev's

father

> finally desides to give a future to his children. He goes in front

of the

> village court and seeks a punishment. The village court says that

if they

> both die, leaving the children as orphans, then the village could

look after

> them.

>

> With out thiking a second, Jnanadev's parents commit suiside

in the

> village river, thiking that their children will be looked after by

the

> villagers. But that also didn't happen....

>

> I believe, Society sets the rules, but only wisemen can

understand

> the reality behind it. Trying to follow the wise with out knowing

their

> capacity is just like a fly falling into the electricity trap,

thiking that

> it is moon.

>

> One should know, what he is doing, before he desides to do it.

That

> will save him and teacher both!

>

> I would recommend a book called "sanyAsa Ashram dharma"

written by

> Sri Malayala Swamy, Verpedu Ashram, Chittor District, Andhrapradesh.

[Guest guest]

>" Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii

>Personally I don't believe in the mental sannyAsa

>stuff. In my view the only option I have is to cultivate devotion

>towards God. And train the mind to direct its thoughts towards HER. Of

>course it will take time, vAsana-s do not die that easily. In any

>case, the solace comes from verse 11 of shivAnandalaharI.

>

 

>It really then does not matter whether one is a sannyAsi or not, and

>one need not take cover under the pretense of mental sannyAsa.

 

Ravi - I read your response to Madhava with interest - Not that I want step

in - but just want to clarify based on my understanding.

 

Mental sanyasa is not just something to believe in - but something one has

to strives for in the process of evalution - One should not take physical

sanyaasa unless one is mentally prepared for it. The second one is an

ashrama and it is not exclusive of the first. One should have the first

that is the mental renounciation before one can switch one's ashrama or way

of life. Otherwise one will endup with samsaara in orange robes.

 

The other thing I would like to point out is bhakti is not different the

mental sanyaasa either. Sanyasa is detachement and mind cannot detach

unless it gets attached to something higher and that is bhakti or devotion.

That is why Shankara defines Bhakti as devotion to ones own self - In other

bhakti the goal itslef is personified for the mind to have locus for its

attachement. The personification in terms of gods or goddeses is only to

help the mind in such a way that identification will not result in

fanaticism but knowledge. Hence true understanding of the Devi is as much

important as the true bhakti and that is nothing but mental sanyaasa. This

is exactly what JNaana that Frank calls about- only the words are different

but all means the same from different perspective.

 

The rest of the discussion of importantance of particular mode of life of

detachment etc are all as Frank rightly pointed out are the means

established by traditions. One thing is certain, when someone is waring

orange robes, others bother them less and he has more chance to get his mind

diverted from the otherwise problems of little value. Conducive Physical

environment helps one to have better control of himself than otherwise.

That is the reason we look for quiet environments etc for contemplation. If

the so-called family responsibilities are sheded away, mentally and

physically, one is more free to contemplate - It is as simple as that. But

let us not distinguish mental sanyaasa as if is a different animal from

physical sanyaasa - The first one is required for the second. Otherwise

only suppression of the mind results instead of sublimation of Vasana-s.

 

Not that I am against any physical sanyaasa - that should be taken when one

is mentally ready so that one can contemplate much easier - nidhidhyaasanam

will become more easy. Mental sanyaasa is the process for realization -

mind has to get detached from identification with the Upaadhis to get firmly

established in Brahman - to put it another way attachment to Brahman gets

the mind detached from the external atachments. It is not a hog wash - but

esential process of removing adhyaasa. Physical sanyaasa is at the physical

level and realization is at the mind and intellectual level. It is the

notions at the mind level that is the adhyaasa. That is what is to be given

up and that is the sanyaasa Frank is also eluding to. Physical sanyaasa

helps and mental sanyaasa is required whether one takes physical sanyaasa or

not!

 

Not that I want to disturb your beliefs. Just want to clarify the issues

from my understanding.

 

One can ofcouse belief anything one wants! He is entitled to that freedom.

But one should also have clear understanding of the nature of the problem

and the solution to the problem that we are seeking. That is what the

essense of adyaasa bhaashyam that we are discussing in BSB.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

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[Guest guest]

What is Sanyasa? Who is a Sanyasi?

 

Every answer to such questions require a frame-work

and none of the framework is universally accepted by

all schools of thought. The 'Varna-Ashrama' code

forms the basis of traditional Hindu society that was

laid down by Manu, legendary father of humankind.

According to Manu, 'Varna' involved dividing society

into four inter-dependent groups ( brahmin, kshatriya,

vaishya and shudra) that contributed to the welfare of

society. 'Ashrama' involved dividing the human

lifespan into four parts so that man could meet both

his material obligations as well as his spiritual

needs in one lifetime without burdening society.

 

1. Bramhacharya, when man prepared himself to be a

member of society.

2. Grihasta, when man fulfilled his social and

biological obligations.

3. Vanaprastha, when man retired from society

preparing the way for next generation.

4. Sanyasa, when he worked towards realization of the

divine.

 

This is the basic Hindu framework where the state of

‘Sanyasa' implies no worldly affairs consisting of

categories (1), (2) and (3). Satguru Sankaracharya

requested his mothe's permission to become a Sanyasi.

As a Sanyasi, Sankara dedicated his life in reading

and spreading the message of the scriptures and

reestablished the ‘Sanatanadharma.' (Shankara's

biographical sketch is available in the list

archives). According to Hindu Traditions, the ceremony

of Sanyasa is quite elaborate like the marriage

(Grihasta). After the completion of this ceremony,

the Sanyasi is relieved from his worldly obligations

as specified in (1), (2) and (3).

This may explain why those who believe in

the‘Traditional View as explained above' disagree with

other interpretations of sanyasa and sanyasi.

 

Honestly we are not likely to convince everyone to

agree on a single point of view because one-size does

not fit all!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: Ideally we may be better of to define a separate

entity, "Yoga of Renunciation" and follow the

explanations of Bhagwan Sri Krishna in Chapter 5:

 

Chapter Five: The Yoga of Renunciation (Karma Sanyasa

Yoga)

 

Arjuna said: O Krishna, You are asking me to renounce

works, and then again You praise works of devotion.

Please tell me, which of the two is decidedly the

best? 1

 

The Blessed Lord said: The renunciation of works and

works of devotion both lead to supreme bliss. But of

the two, works of devotion are better than the

renunciation of works. 2

 

One should be known as a perpetual Sanyasi, who never

dislikes or likes, and liberated from dualities, O

mighty-armed Arjuna, he is easily set free of material

bondage. 3

Only the ignorant speak of works in devotional

service, karma-yoga, as begin different from

analytical study, Sankhya. The Sage, completely

established in one of these, enjoys the fruits of

both. 4

The position that is reached by analytical philosophy,

is the same place attained by works of devotion. He

who can see that renunciation of works, and works of

devotion, are one, can truly see. 5

But without works of devotional service, O

mighty-armed one, analytical philosophy will be

difficult and hard, but the Sages, working in

devotional service, quickly reach the Eternal Brahma.

6

One who is acting in devotion, a purified soul,

self-controlled, and senses subdued, seeing Himself as

the Self in all creatures, although working, is never

entangled. 7

One who knows the essense of things, thinks, "I,

myself, never do anything", thus, in seeing, hearing,

touching, smelling, eating, moving around, sleeping,

and breathing, 8

Talking, giving, receiving, opening or closing the

eyes, he realizes that only the senses are engaged in

sense-objects. 9

One who acts, without attachment, resigning all works

to the Supreme Brahman, will be unaffected by sin,

like a lotus leaf is by water. 10

The Yogis, abandoning all attachments, use body, mind,

intelligence, and even the senses, for purification.

11

The devoted man, unattached to the results of his

labors, recieves the Perfect Peace. The undevoted,

driven by desire and attachment, are bound to it. 12

By letting-go of all actions, controlling the mind, he

resides happily in the city with nine gates [the

body], without acting or causing action. 13

The Lord over this city, observes no ownership, or

activities, or results of activities, and induces no

others to act. All actions are connected to the modes

of material nature. 14

The Supreme Lord never accepts the sin or sacrifice of

anyone. But because ignorance covers up wisdom, the

creatures are deluded. 15

When the knowledge of the Self, has destroyed all

ignorance, then wisdom, shining like the sun, reveals

the Supreme. 16

Intelligence in the Supreme, mind on the Supreme,

merged into the Supreme, devoted entirely to the

Supreme, correcting errors with wisdom, he achieves

liberation without falling-back. 17

The Sage, looks equally upon a learned and gentle

Brahmana, and a cow, an elephant, a dog, or even an

outcast bum. 18

In this life, with the mind set on unity, birth and

death is overcome. The incorruptable Brahman is in

unity, and they are established in the Supreme. 19

Neither rejoicing in obtaining pleasure, nor lamenting

over displeasure, intelligent, and unconfused, one who

knows the Supreme, is established in the Brahman. 20

One, whose Self is unattached to external sense

pleasures, finding happiness in the Self, at one with

the Brahman through Yoga, enjoys the eternal bliss. 21

 

For the joy of the senses form the womb that bears

forth pain, O son of Kunti. Both the source and the

end, the wise man does not rejoice in them. 22

Able to master the urges born of passion and desire,

before leaving the physical body, he is a Yogi, and a

happy man. 23 One who is happy inside, driven from

within, illumined from within, that Yogi, in attaining

Brahma, reaches Nirvana, the Supreme. 24

The Rishis, devoid of sins, dualities removed, and

self-controlled, working for the welfare of all

creatures, achieve the Nirvana of the Supreme Brahman.

25

The Nirvana of the Supreme Brahman lies in the near

future of those who are free of anger and desire, who

have subdued the mind, realizing the true Self. 26

Blocking out the external senses, eyes fixed between

the eyebrows, balancing the the outgoing and ingoing

breaths through the nostrils, 27

Controlling senses, mind, and intelligence, to achieve

liberation, the Sage casts off desire, fear, and

anger, and thereby is certainly liberated. 28

 

Thus, knowing Me, as the Enjoyer of all sacrifice and

austerities, the Supreme Lord of all the worlds, and

the Beneficent Helper of all living creatures, he

finds peace and relief. 29

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Excellent points, Ramji!

 

The debate is based on equating sanyasa with sanyasa ashrama,

which is contrary to Gita's teaching:

 

In III:4 -

....

na cha sa.nnyasanaadeva siddhi.n samadhigachchhati ..

 

Nor by mere renunciation of action does one attain to perfection.

 

Those who realise the Self are in fact 'ati-ashramii', beyond the

fields of varNashrama dharma, and Self-realisation can happen in any

ashrama stage.

 

Shankara was 'ati-ashramii' as a brahmachaarii, but chose to take up

the sanyasa ashrama and a guru for a specific mission of re-

establishing the Vedic dharma. [sw. Chandrasekharendra Saraswati

called Ramana 'ati-ashramii', as he had not taken formal sanyasa.]

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

advaitin , Ram Chandran <ramvchandran> wrote:

> What is Sanyasa? Who is a Sanyasi?

>

> Every answer to such questions require a frame-work

> and none of the framework is universally accepted by

> all schools of thought.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

vidvishA means 'hating', and cannot be in reference to

sanyasa!![and to mean 'seeker']

 

The correct word is : vividiShA one who has need for further

study of the Vedanta.

 

dotting the i's and crossing the t's is more critical in

Sanskrit than in English!! [ not to mention how the chanting is to be

done!]

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii>

wrote:

> advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

> wrote:

> > -----------

>

> >

> > I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1)

> vidvat (2)

> > vijeegisha

> >

>

> They are vidvat and vidvishA. Jaldhar Vyas in the series on

jIvamukti

> viveka of svAmi vidyAraNya, discussed about these. Also Vidyasankar

> Sundaresan in some of his posts. If you search using "vidvisha" in

> Escribe archives of advaita-L you will find it. First time I

> encountered these words was in Autobiography of a Yogi, were Swami

> Yukteshwar initiates Swami Yogananda to vidvat sannyAsa.

>

>

>

> AUM namaH shivAyai cha namaH shivAya

>

> Ravi

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sundarji, for timely help. I was trying to see how "hating" is

related to sanyasa, and inferring different perspectives to justify the

"vidvisha" word, during my manana. But now, "vividisha" --- yes it makes

better sense! Thank you.

> ----------

> sunder hattangadi

> Reply advaitin

> Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:28 PM

> advaitin

> Re: sanyasa

>

> Namaste,

>

> vidvishA means 'hating', and cannot be in reference to

> sanyasa!![and to mean 'seeker']

>

> The correct word is : vividiShA one who has need for further

> study of the Vedanta.

>

> dotting the i's and crossing the t's is more critical in

> Sanskrit than in English!! [ not to mention how the chanting is to be

> done!]

>

> Regards,

>

> s.

>

>

> advaitin , " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii>

> wrote:

> > advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

> > wrote:

> > > -----------

> >

> > >

> > > I am told by my teacher, there are two kinds of sanyasas: (1)

> > vidvat (2)

> > > vijeegisha

> > >

> >

> > They are vidvat and vidvishA. Jaldhar Vyas in the series on

> jIvamukti

> > viveka of svAmi vidyAraNya, discussed about these. Also Vidyasankar

> > Sundaresan in some of his posts. If you search using "vidvisha" in

> > Escribe archives of advaita-L you will find it. First time I

> > encountered these words was in Autobiography of a Yogi, were Swami

> > Yukteshwar initiates Swami Yogananda to vidvat sannyAsa.

> >

>

> >

> >

> > AUM namaH shivAyai cha namaH shivAya

> >

> > Ravi

>

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

advaitin , "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> vidvishA means 'hating', and cannot be in reference to

> sanyasa!![and to mean 'seeker']

>

> The correct word is : vividiShA one who has need for

further

> study of the Vedanta.

>

 

Yes, you are correct. Vidya in his posts correctly terms it as

vividiShA. I did a search with that term, I got three of his posts

which uses the word. I am sorry for the error. I picked the

incorrect transliteration from the posts on jivAna mukti viveka. I

should have been more careful.

 

 

Ravi

[Guest guest]

>

> dotting the i's and crossing the t's is more critical in

> Sanskrit than in English!! [ not to mention how the chanting is to

be

> done!]

>

 

:-)) By the way, vijigIshu means, "he who wants to conquer".

 

Re: sannyAsa vs. sannyAsa-Ashrama - ideally, there should not be a

gap between the two. If there is, it is up to the seeker to bridge

the gap, or to keep decreasing its extent.

 

The notion of brahmacaryA -> gRhastha -> vAnaprastha -> sannyAsa, is

only one side of the picture. There is an equivalent traditional

allowance for sannyAsa from any stage - brahmacaryAd vA gRhAd vA

vanAd vA pravrajet. yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet

(jAbAla upanishad, quoted often by Sankara). One can renounce and "go

forth" the very instant one gets to the highest dispassion (vairAgya).

 

Although sannyAsa is usually described as one of the four Ashramas,

in reality, the sannyAsin is an atyAshramin. From the perspective of

vidvat sannyAsin and vividishA sannyAsin, the latter has to become

the former, at some point, or else, his sannyAsa is of no use to

himself or to anybody else. The rules of sannyAsa Ashrama are only to

help the vividishu to become a vidvAn. No rules bind the vidvat

sannyAsin, for he is by definition beyond all bindings and rules. For

this very reason, not everybody can be one. The true sannyAsin will

(or should) also recognize the practical efficacy of rules for the

vast majority of people.

 

Vidyasankar

[Guest guest]

namaste

 

 

I sign-out of this thread as I have biased, pre-set opinion on the

artifact called mental sannyAsa.

 

I think most people who become sannyAsi-s will fall under the 2nd type

or vividiSha sannyAsa.m. Rare, it should be, the vidvat.h sannyAsa.m.

First one has to start with physical detachment and then probably one

can work on mental detachment and eliminate the residual vAsana-s. If

one is addicted to ice-cream, one has to give up ice-cream first (or

slowly) and then work on burning the vasAna of addiction. Eating

ice-cream all the time and saying aha I am not mentally attached to

it, is funny. Easier and better way is to pray to God to save one from

the addiction to ice-cream. (replace ice-cream with wife etc.)

 

 

In any case one who has family, possesions, etc., talking of mental

sannyAsa.m is in vain. sannyAsa to me begins with sannyAsa Ashrama.

For gR^ihasta-s the only way is bhakti and doing their karma as

dictated by shAstra-s. Latter is exceedingly difficult and has to be

done with true iishvaraarpaNa bhavam.h. So for the gR^ihasta-s, bhakti

and sharaNagaati is the easiest way.

 

 

naa j~naayate mama hita.m nitaraa.m upaayo

diino.asmi devii samayaacharaNaaxamo.asmi |

tat.h tvaa.m ananya sharaNaH sharaNa.m prapadye

miinaaxii vishva jananii jananii mamaiva ||

niilakaNTha diixita

aananda saagara stavaH

 

 

 

That will prepare and lead them to the next stage.

 

This is my last post on this thread. I am sorry if I had offended any

of your sentiments due to my ignorance.

 

namaste

 

Ravi

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

>

> Re: sannyAsa vs. sannyAsa-Ashrama - ideally, there should not be a

> gap between the two. If there is, it is up to the seeker to bridge

> the gap, or to keep decreasing its extent.

>

> The notion of brahmacaryA -> gRhastha -> vAnaprastha -> sannyAsa,

is

> only one side of the picture. There is an equivalent traditional

> allowance for sannyAsa from any stage - brahmacaryAd vA gRhAd vA

> vanAd vA pravrajet. yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet

> (jAbAla upanishad, quoted often by Sankara). One can renounce

and "go

> forth" the very instant one gets to the highest dispassion

(vairAgya).

>

> Although sannyAsa is usually described as one of the four Ashramas,

> in reality, the sannyAsin is an atyAshramin.

 

***How so? Sanyasins then would have no injunctions to abide by!

 

atyAshramins can be found in any Ashrama, and is not a prerogative of

sa.nnyAsa-Ashramins; and they abide by the rules of those Ashramas as

a guide to others [lokasa.ngrahArtham.h].

 

 

>From the perspective of

> vidvat sannyAsin and vividishA sannyAsin, the latter has to become

> the former, at some point, or else, his sannyAsa is of no use to

> himself or to anybody else. The rules of sannyAsa Ashrama are only

to

> help the vividishu to become a vidvAn. No rules bind the vidvat

> sannyAsin, for he is by definition beyond all bindings and rules.

For

> this very reason, not everybody can be one. The true sannyAsin will

> (or should) also recognize the practical efficacy of rules for the

> vast majority of people.

 

Agree fully.

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

[Guest guest]

> > Although sannyAsa is usually described as one of the four

Ashramas,

> > in reality, the sannyAsin is an atyAshramin.

>

> ***How so? Sanyasins then would have no injunctions to abide by!

>

> atyAshramins can be found in any Ashrama, and is not a prerogative

of

> sa.nnyAsa-Ashramins; and they abide by the rules of those Ashramas

as

> a guide to others [lokasa.ngrahArtham.h].

 

Agreed. It is a question of semantics. Theoretically, the atyASramin

is a true sannyAsin, regardless of which ASrama (s)he is found in.

But then, nobody is stuck in one ASrama forever. The student becomes

the householder, the householder becomes the forest-dweller, the

forest-dweller becomes the ascetic (theoretically speaking, again).

Ideally, one who is in the sannyAsa-ASrama should be an atyASramin.

In actuality, things might be different. The rules of sannyAsa-ASrama

are only there to bridge the gap between the ideal and the actual.

The rule that one should progress from the other ASramas to the

sannyAsa-ASrama is also meant to bridge this gap only. Rather than

being an argument against sannyAsa-ASrama, this is an acknowledgement

of its superior efficacy.

 

Vidyasankar

[Guest guest]

-

"sunder hattangadi" <sunderh

> > Although sannyAsa is usually described as one of the four Ashramas,

> > in reality, the sannyAsin is an atyAshramin.

>

> ***How so? Sanyasins then would have no injunctions to abide by!

>

 

Sundariji,

 

Before taking sanyasa they perform Viraja Homa, in which they mentally burn

their physical bodies. They put their own "Pinda" performing their own

Sradha. (Morsel of rice which is offered as a part of funeral rites).

 

What rules does a "Spirit - devoid of physical body" follows? I believe,

the same with the Sanyasins.

 

Yours,

Madhava

[Guest guest]

Namaste Madhavaji,

 

I think entering sanyasa-ashrama means they have earned the

right to abandon vedic karmas. The conduct of the sanyasins is still

under the purview of the shrutis [sanyasa upanishads], or they remain

vividShA-sa.nnyasins until they reach the vidvat stage [brahmastha]

as Vidya has pointed out.

 

Regards,

 

sunder

 

 

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@h...>

wrote:

> -

> "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...>

> > > Although sannyAsa is usually described as one of the four

Ashramas,

> > > in reality, the sannyAsin is an atyAshramin.

> >

> > ***How so? Sanyasins then would have no injunctions to abide by!

> >

>

> Sundariji,

>

> Before taking sanyasa they perform Viraja Homa, in which they

mentally burn

> their physical bodies. They put their own "Pinda" performing their

own

> Sradha. (Morsel of rice which is offered as a part of funeral

rites).

>

> What rules does a "Spirit - devoid of physical body" follows? I

believe,

> the same with the Sanyasins.

>

> Yours,

> Madhava

[Guest guest]

Namaste Advaitins,

 

It is nice to be back on the list after a 3 month absence. When Sri Ramakrishna

wanted to perform "tarpana" to his deceased mother, he found he could not do it.

As soon as his hands took the water, his fingers separated. Thus he concluded

that all such karma were no longer required from Him. Now whether this was due

to the fact of Jnana or sanyasa is open to discussion.

 

Regards,

Anand

 

 

 

------------------

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The 'actions' of atyAshramins are as hard to fathom as

the 'creation' of the world.

 

It is well-known that Shankara performed the obsequies for his

mother against all the weight of tradition.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

advaitin , anand_natarajan@i... wrote:

>

> Namaste Advaitins,

>

> It is nice to be back on the list after a 3 month absence. When

Sri Ramakrishna wanted to perform "tarpana" to his deceased mother,

he found he could not do it. As soon as his hands took the water, his

fingers separated. Thus he concluded that all such karma were no

longer required from Him. Now whether this was due to the fact of

Jnana or sanyasa is open to discussion.

>

> Regards,

> Anand

>

>

>

> ------------------

> Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com