Comment on BSB: I-i-1-1B – pre-requisites for liberation

[Guest guest]

(Note that previous posts on 1B by everyone have actually been on 1A.)

 

Apologies for not providing updated words for glossary from this – I’m still

trying to get the latest copy to update, plus I’m having the usual problems

with this illusory time thing.

 

Dear Sadananda,

 

Interesting but also somewhat astounding. In I-i-1-1A, regarding necessary

qualifications for studying the BS, you say that Shankara posits the

saadhana chatushhTayam as the pre-requisite but say that these are not

mentioned in the ten upanishads. (Are they in any of the minor ones?) You

say that Shankara bases them on the BS only.

 

But then, in I-i-1-1B, you say that this is not directly mentioned by

Vyaasa, only implied by his introductory word – literally! The claim seems

to be that, in order to be able to embark on a study of Vedanta (having some

reasonable expectation of a successful outcome – i.e. realisation), one must

have: -

Discrimination, dispassion, mind-control, turning away from sense objects,

self-withdrawal, forbearance, faith, steadiness of intellect on God and a

yearning for liberation.

All of this is deduced from the single word ‘atha’!!??

 

Why these in particular? Could one not come up with a similar (but

different) list of good things that someone who had attained liberation

would be certain to have and in which most ordinary people are lacking?

Secondly, is it actually known to be the case that no one lacking one or

more of these has ever achieved liberation or that someone who was lacking

one or more nevertheless did achieve liberation? What about Vyaasa himself?

Is it not the case that he was at one time a thief and murderer? (If not, I

have certainly been told that some sage, responsible for writing something

significant was.) If so, surely that implies a lack of discrimination,

dispassion, mind control, turning away – at least! The case for anvaya

vyatireka nyaaya and hence yukti pramaaNam seems unproven.

 

I agree that the references you have given (Mundaka, Katha imply some of

them but surely, as mentioned above, lots of moral and positive traits could

be derived from these and others; Shankara is quite specific.

 

It all seems a bit arbitrary and severely lacking in (dare I say it)

scientific rigour!

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote:

> (Note that previous posts on 1B by everyone have actually been on

1A.)

>

>

In I-i-1-1A, regarding necessary

> qualifications for studying the BS, you say that Shankara posits the

> saadhana chatushhTayam as the pre-requisite but say that these are

not

> mentioned in the ten upanishads. (Are they in any of the minor

ones?)

 

 

**** The phrase saadhanachatushhTayasaMpannaH occurs in Muktika,

Narada-parivrajaka, and Sanyasa upanishads.

 

 

 

 

> Discrimination, dispassion, mind-control, turning away from sense

objects,

> self-withdrawal, forbearance, faith, steadiness of intellect on God

and a

> yearning for liberation.

 

 

**** In Vivekachudamani, Shankara states:

 

medhaavii purushho vidvaanuuhaapohavichakshaNaH .

adhikaaryaatmavidyaayaamuktalakshaNalakshitaH .. 16..

 

An intelligent and learned person skilled in arguing in favor of the

scriptures and in refuting counter-arguments against them--one who

has got the above characteristics is the fir recipient of the

knowledge of the Atman.

 

vivekino viraktasya shamaadiguNashaalinaH .

mumukshoreva hi brahmajij~naasaayogyataa mataa .. 17..

 

One who discriminates between the Real and the Unreal, whose mind is

turned away from the Unreal, who possesses calmness and the allied

virtues, and who is longing for liberation, is alone qualified to

inquire after Brahman.

 

Regards,

 

s.

[Guest guest]

> Interesting but also somewhat astounding. In I-i-1-1A, regarding

necessary

> qualifications for studying the BS, you say that Shankara posits the

> saadhana chatushhTayam as the pre-requisite but say that these are

not

> mentioned in the ten upanishads. (Are they in any of the minor

ones?) You

> say that Shankara bases them on the BS only.

 

Actually, from different places in the bRhadAraNyaka upanishad, one

gets references to all the qualities listed under the sAdhana

catushTaya. In a dialogue with janaka, yAjnyavalkya uses the

participle forms zAnta, dAnta, uparata etc, which are converted to

noun forms as zama, dama, uparati etc. Dispassion towards the

enjoyment of fruits in this world and the next can be inferred from

the reference in ths same upanishad to those who have no desire for

wealth and progeny. To want to know Brahman and to get liberated is

an obvious prerequisite, inferable from all the upanishads.

> All of this is deduced from the single word `atha'!!??

>

 

The specific context in which these are inferred from the word atha

is this - Sankara's argument is that enquiry into the nature of

Brahman is not a secondary thing appended to the enquiry into karman.

I.e. Vedanta is made independent of Purva Mimamsa.

 

> Why these in particular? Could one not come up with a similar (but

> different) list of good things that someone who had attained

liberation

> would be certain to have and in which most ordinary people are

lacking?

 

A variant list of qualities to eb cultivated before Vedantic study

can be found in the 13th chapter of the Gita, verses 7ff - amAnitva,

adambhitva, etc.

 

> Secondly, is it actually known to be the case that no one lacking

one or

> more of these has ever achieved liberation or that someone who was

lacking

> one or more nevertheless did achieve liberation? What about Vyaasa

himself?

> Is it not the case that he was at one time a thief and murderer?

(If not, I

> have certainly been told that some sage, responsible for writing

something

> significant was.) If so, surely that implies a lack of

 

The story is about Valmiki, the author of the Ramayana. But before he

attained the insight, he had to first turn away from his life as a

thief and immerse himself in meditation. The popular story is that he

could not even pronounce the word rAma right, so the seven great

sages taught him to first recite mara, which through continued

repetition and contemplation became rAma.

 

The idea is that one needs to have a strong ethical foundation before

embarking upon the study that ultimately transcends all consideration

of good and bad. Otherwise, knowledge is apt to be misused.

 

Best wishes,

Vidyasankar

[Guest guest]

Dennis Waite wrote:

>Interesting but also somewhat astounding. In I-i-1-1A, regarding necessary

>qualifications for studying the BS, you say that Shankara posits the

>saadhana chatushhTayam as the pre-requisite but say that these are not

>mentioned in the ten upanishads. (Are they in any of the minor ones?) You

>say that Shankara bases them on the BS only.

 

If you look at the last notes, what I intended to say was that upanishads

do not directly declare that the four-fold qualifications are the

prerequisites but implied in one way or the other. That there are

prerequisites for Brahma Vidya is agreed upon by all aachaarya-s. Some have

additional requirements or different interpretations. Dvaita and

VishishhTadivaita for example emphasize that recognition that the Lord is

the in Dweller and controller of all, His superiority and jiiva's dependence

and hence mumukshutvam involving attitude of servitude to the almighty

arising from Love or Bhakti of the Lord are essential ingredients. In that

love - they emphasize the four types of Bhakti - aartho arthaarthi etc of

B.G.

 

>But then, in I-i-1-1B, you say that this is not directly mentioned by

>Vyaasa, only implied by his introductory word ˆ literally! The claim seems

>to be that, in order to be able to embark on a study of Vedanta (having

>some

>reasonable expectation of a successful outcome ˆ i.e. realisation), one

>must

>have: -

>Discrimination, dispassion, mind-control, turning away from sense objects,

>self-withdrawal, forbearance, faith, steadiness of intellect on God and a

>yearning for liberation.

>All of this is deduced from the single word Œatha‚!!??

 

All the bhaashhyakaara-s agree that 'atha' means exactly what Shankara

provided in terms of thereafter or then indicative of pre-requisites and

that is also the requirement of anubandha chatushhTayam or four-fold

requirement for the introductory sloka or suutra. That there are

pre-requisites for Brahmavidya is not debatable. Shankara has crystallized

the requirements in terms of the four based on the references that were

provided. It is incorrect if my notes came across that 'atha' formed a

basis for coming with the four-fold requirements. 'atha' is only indicative

of the pre-requisites. What Shankara has done is to deduce the

pre-requisites that he thought Vyaasa had in mind as the four-fold

requirements. These he deduced based on the Upanishad texts that I have

provided references, which imply not directly but indirectly.

>Why these in particular? Could one not come up with a similar (but

>different) list of good things that someone who had attained liberation

>would be certain to have and in which most ordinary people are lacking?

>Secondly, is it actually known to be the case that no one lacking one or

>more of these has ever achieved liberation or that someone who was lacking

>one or more nevertheless did achieve liberation? What about Vyaasa himself?

>Is it not the case that he was at one time a thief and murderer?

 

That was Vaalmiiki the aadikavi or the first known poet, the author of

Ramayana.

 

By the by, one time thief or murderer does not mean he was all the time.

Even one time murderer and thief could by proper sadhana acquire the

Brahmavidya only implies that we are not the gone case! We can also achieve

provided we have at least that much titiksha that Vaalmiiki had. A snake

pit grow overtime and he was not even aware of it - that was the intense of

his meditation. He could not have done it unless he has that vairaagya and

viveka and shradda on the teacher’s words and mumukshutvam. Those he

developed the moment the sages told him that he also singly responsible for

the heinous crimes that he was committing. It was actually the blessing of

his past lives that he got exposed to the wisdom of those sages who turned

his life into something else. Hence some of the pre-requisites are earned

in the past lives too.

About these aspects wait till I present objections and counter objections.

I am only postponing the postings since everybody wanted larger gap between

the posts.

 

(If not, I

>have certainly been told that some sage, responsible for writing something

>significant was.) If so, surely that implies a lack of discrimination,

>dispassion, mind control, turning away ˆ at least! The case for anvaya

>vyatireka nyaaya and hence yukti pramaaNam seems unproven.

 

True there were no controlled experiments to prove or disprove, to claim

that anvaya vyatireka nyaaya is applicable or not applicable. These are

inferential conclusions and also practical experience of all of us since

most of our problems is lack of commitment to the goal since the importance

of the goals is not recognized. It is our direct experience even in

materialistic world those who are committed to a goal with no other

distractions (vairaagya) and shraddha, uparati etc are the ones who succeed

in achieving the goal. Here the difference only the goal is moksha but

other than that every thing else is the same. Actually all the four are

interrelated. If I have mumukshutvam, a strong desire for liberation, the

rest of them follow automatically driven by my desire for liberation. If I

have clear viveka, then the rest follow. If you read the story of

Nisargadatta Maharaj, you can see the shraddha or faith in his teacher words

are sufficient to bring all other factors in.

 

Since these are subjective qualifications, it is difficult to provide a

direct proof at the same token also disprove that such and such people

realized even though they did not have it, etc. The scriputural logic is

there as provided in the notes that shows without these it is difficult to

achieve the liberation.

>I agree that the references you have given (Mundaka, Katha imply some of

>them but surely, as mentioned above, lots of moral and positive traits

>could

>be derived from these and others; Shankara is quite specific.

>

>It all seems a bit arbitrary and severely lacking in (dare I say it)

>scientific rigour!

 

Remember these are subjective factors and hence are difficult to evaluate

quantifiably using any objective norms that we are familier with in the

objective world. What we can only go by anvaya vyatireka as well as

scriptural reference to these factors as inferential conclusions, which

Shankara crystallizes in terms of identifiable factors. These are

correlations based on ones experiences and also logical. As you will see

the objections of the objectors will be not necessarily based on exact

scientific approach that you have in mind but from what the objectors think

should be pre-requisites to suite their model. From advaitic understanding,

Shankara has provide more exhaustive analysis of these prerequisites in his

many prakaraNa books such as Tatvabodha, VivekachuuDaamaNi, Upadesha

sahashri etc.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>

>**** The phrase saadhanachatushhTayasaMpannaH occurs in Muktika,

>Narada-parivrajaka, and Sanyasa upanishads.

 

Thanks Sunder for these references. I was not aware that the word

saadhanachatushhTayam was used in the Upanishhat-s. Can you provide me

complete reference and the mantra-s so that I can update my notes.

 

This is exactly what I like in terms of input rather than just go by my

notes and references. I request those who are knowledgable and can

provide the input please do so. Also correct me if I am wrong.. This way

we all can learn.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

>Regards,

>

s

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

muktikopanishhat.h: I:6

 

mumukshavaH purushhaaH saadhanachatushhTayasaMpannaaH shraddhaavantaH

sukulabhava.n shrotriya.n shaastravaatsalyaguNavantamakuTila.n

sarvabhuutahite rata.n dayaasamudra.n sadguru.n

vidhivadupasa.ngamyopahaarapaaNayo.ashhtottarashatopanishhada.n

vidhivadadhiitya shravaNamanananididhyaasanaani nairantaryeNa

kR^itvaa praarabdhakshayaaddehatrayabha~NgaM

praapyopaadhivinirmuktaghaTaakaashavatparipuurNataa videhamuktiH .

 

##..the seeker of liberation, endowed with the four-fold virtues,

after learning from the Teacher, well-versed in the observances of

Vedic knowledge and study-- all the 108 upanishads, becomes liberated

in life; in course of time as 'praarabdha is destroyed, they attain

My disembodied salvation....##

 

naaradaparivraajakopanishhat.h: I.

 

.....taduchita.n karma sarva.n nirvartya

saadhaanachatushhTayasaMpannaH ....svasvaruupadhyaanena dehatyaaga.n

karoti sa mukto bhavati....

 

##..having performed all the duties thereof, one should acquire the

four-fold means of salvation....one who quits the body in the

contemplation ofReality, is an emancipated person...##

 

sa.nnyaasopanishhat.h: II:1

 

AUM chatvaari.nshatsa.nskaarasaMpnnaH

sarvatoviraktachittashuddhimetyaashaasuuyershhyaaha~Nkaara.n dagdhvaa

saadhanachatushhTayasaMpanna eva sa.nnyastumarhati .

 

##That person alone is entitled to renunciation who has undergone the

forty purificatory rites, has detachment from all worldly things, has

acquired purity of mind, has burnt out desires, envy, intolerance and

egotism, and is equipped with the four disciplines of spiritual

life.##

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

advaitin , "K. Sadananda" <sada@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> >**** The phrase saadhanachatushhTayasaMpannaH occurs in Muktika,

> >Narada-parivrajaka, and Sanyasa upanishads.

>

Can you provide me

> complete reference and the mantra-s so that I can update my notes.