RE: stupidity vs confusion

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

Thanks Ramji for the beautiful summary of the 18 chapters in the form Q&A.

While reading your introduction, I noticed that there is a statement saying

Arjuna was at a lost in the battlefield due to 'stupidity' among other

afflictions. But wouldn't the word 'confusion' be more appropriate in that

context? In our lives, we too are at a lost in various situations. Aren't

we more 'confused' than 'stupid'? Moreover, Arjuna was also intelligent

enough to choose Lord Krishna as his Guru. And to seek help when he needed

it most. Arjuna could have been intelligent but also confused in that

situation. In the context of Vedanta, the method is to remove false

attribution, right? since everyone of us are born ignorant. Perhaps, others

could also contribute.

 

Thanks and regards.

 

Kathi

>

> Ram Chandran [sMTP:rchandran]

> Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:38 PM

> Advaitin List

> Re: Gita Satsang - Resumption: Chapter 2 Summary

>

> Harih Aum:

>

> Chapter 2 of Gita is a quick summary of all the eighteen chapters.

> Implicitly

> this chapter describes the path of human liberation that consists of

> Karma,

> Bhakti and Jnana. During our study group discussions, I have presented

> this

> the essence of Gita focusing on self-realization. This is a delicate area

> and

> the scriptures (Upanishads) have carefully stated the implications of

> making

> the claim about Jnanihood. The Upanishads categorically rejects anyone

> making

> a public claim that "I am a Jnani!"

>

> Key verses of Gita in the eighteen chapters are selected to indicate the

> stages that the seeker undergoes in his/her spiritual growth. These stages

> of

> development are presented just for coherent reading and understanding of

> human

> evolution. In reality, spiritual development is an experience and is not

> achievement such getting a diploma or degree in an university. The

> spiritual

> developments that are postulated in Gita are helpful tools to reach

> spiritual

> maturity. The most important ingredient for Self-realization is the Grace

> of

> God which is ever present to the true seeker! According to Hindu

> Scriptures

> and beliefs, Grace is an essential element for human liberation. The

> scriptures also stress the importance of "Sadhana" as the driving force

> for

> Self-realization. According to Gita, the most important Sadhana is to

> conduct

> our activities without paying attention to the fruits of our actions. This

> is

> Karma Yoga. Karma yoga is impossible to perform without Bhakti and Bhakti

> is

> an expression of infinite love for the Lord! Infinite devotion to the Lord

> necessarily implies loving everyone around us! When we see everyone within

> us

> and see us in everyone (nondual outlook) we express our True Bhakti. When

> we

> conduct our duties with the Yagna spirit (Karma Yoga) spontaneously

> without

> hesitation, we become Jnanis. The person who attains the wisdom to

> recognize

> his/her True Divine Nature becomes the Jnani.

>

> The concept of Vedanta in general and Advaita Vedanta in particular is

> fully

> described in Chapter 2 in a summary format. The following key verses are

> recommended to the Satsangis for further reading: 16 to 25, 31, 39, 42 to

> 46,

> 47, 48, 51, and from 54 to 72. With the divine presence and guidance,

> Arjuna's intellectual mind undergoes the necessary transformations that

> are

> described in chapters 1 to 18. The key verses indicated below focus on the

> essential message of Gita.

>

> Seizure of Human Mind by Emotion, Ego, Ignorance and Stupidity (1-47) The

> human Arjun is overwhelmed by emotion and self-pity and collapses down on

> the

> seat of his chariot. He throws down his bow, arrow and dignity. He

> momentarily

> forgets his True Human Nature and desperately asks for outside help.

> Instantaneously, ignorance, selfishness, self-centered ego, emotion and

> stupidity takes charge of his personality. He separates himself from his

> true

> human nature and neglects his obligation to fight the war. Fortunately,

> the

> flash of light from his subconscious mind emerges to give all the

> necessary

> guidance to fight his freedom from emotion, ego and ignorance and to save

> the

> human soul.

>

> The Key to Liberation ( 2 - 67 & 68) When the mind runs after rowing

> senses it

> carries away intelligence, just as the wind carries away a ship on the

> waters.

> By withdrawing our senses from objects we can firmly set our intelligence!

>

>

> Importance of Senses, Mind, Intelligence and Consciousness: ( 3 - 41 & 42)

> The

> rowing senses can destroy the wisdom and discriminating power and hence

> they

> should be controlled. Knowledge of Self is greater than intelligence;

> intelligence is greater than the mind and mind is greater than the senses.

> Hence it is important for everyone to acquire the knowledge of SELF

> (Jnani)

> through reading the scriptures, listening to teachers and through personal

> experience.

>

> SanyasaYoga and the Renunciation of Senses (4 - 26 & 27) Some follow the

> sanyasa yoga by restraining the use of sense organs by meditating in

> caves,

> mountains and forests. They sacrifice worldly life by falling into the

> fire of

> yoga of self control.

>

> What is Balanced Mind? (5 - 22 & 23) Those who realize that real happiness

> does not born out of the pleasures from contacts with objects and who are

> able

> to resist the rush of desire and anger will have a balanced mind.

>

> What is Meditation? (6 - 18, 24, 25) Meditation is the liberation of mind

> from

> all desires and the establishment of the mind on Self alone. Such a Yogi

> will

> be self content and self-controlled with unshakable determination.

>

> Goal of Human Life ( 7 - 10) God is the strength of the strong, devoid of

> desire and passion. The desire for union with God is the only desire that

> will

> fulfil the goal of having no desire and it will not be contrary to the

> Goal.

>

> Practice of Yoga Sastraa to Control Body: (8 - 12) All the gates of the

> body

> restrained, the mind confined within the heart, one's life force fixed in

> the

> head, established in concentration by Yoga (The physical body is called

> the

> nine-gated city!)

>

> What is Yoga of Sovereign Mystery (Devotion)? (9 - 34) The way to rise out

> of

> our ego-centered consciousness to the divine plane is through focusing of

> all

> our energies, intellectual, emotional and volitional on God. Knowledge,

> love

> and power get fused in supreme unification. Bliss through Total Surrender

> and

> Complete Detachment from desires.

>

> What is Buddhi Yoga? (10 - 9 & 10) The devotion of mind by which the

> disciple

> gains the wisdom which sees the one in all the forms which change and

> pass. By

> diverting the rowing mind on God the disciple controls the senses.

>

> What is Devotion (Bhakti)? (11 - 55) The essence of Bhakti is to carry out

> the

> duties, directing the spirit to God and with a complete detachment from

> all

> interest in the things of the world and also free from enmity toward

> others.

>

> Who is a True Devotee? (12 - 13 & 14) The person with no ill will to any

> being, who is friendly and compassionate, free from egoism and self

> -sense,

> even-minded in pain and pleasure, tolerant and self-controlled is a True

> Devotee!

>

> What is True Wisdom ? (13 - 13 & 14) Humility, integrity, nonviolence,

> patience, uprightness, service of teacher, purity, steadfastness,

> self-control, indifference to the objects of sense, self-effacement and

> the

> perception of the evil of birth, death, old age, sickness and pain,

> non-attachment to spouse, children, and other possessions, and a constant

> equal-mindedness to all desirable and undesirable happenings.

>

> The True Human Nature (Stithaprajna) (14 - 24 to 26) The person who

> regards

> pain and pleasure alike, who dwells in own self, who looks upon a clod, a

> stone, apiece of gold as of equal worth, who remains the same amidst the

> pleasant and the unpleasant things, who is firm of mind, who regards both

> blame and praise as one, who is the same in honor and dishonor, who treats

> friends and foes same, who has given up all initiative of action and who

> serves God with unfailing devotion of love is said to have risen above the

> three modes.

>

> What is Liberation? (15 - 5) Those who are freed from pride and delusion,

> who

> have conquered the evil of attachment, who have frozen their desires, who

> are

> ever devoted to the Supreme Spirit are liberated from the dualities known

> as

> pleasure and pain and are undeluded, go to that eternal state of Brahman.

>

>

> Divinity in Human Nature (16 - 2 & 3) The virtues that include

> Nonviolence,

> truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, tranquility, aversion to fault

> finding, compassion to living beings, freedom from covetousness,

> gentleness,

> modesty and steadiness, vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, freedom

> from

> malice and excessive pride belong to True Human nature unified with

> Divinity.

>

> Qualities of a Perfect Human Being (17 - 14 to 16) Worship of the Gods, of

> the

> twice-born, of teachers and of the wise, purity, uprightness, austerity

> and

> nonviolence, the utterance of non-offensive speech, serenity of mind,

> gentleness, silence and self-control are the necessary standard to become

> more

> perfect.

>

> Who is a Perfect Yogi? (18 - 51 to 53) A Yogi endowed with a pure

> understanding, firmly restraining oneself, turning away from sound and

> other

> objects of sense, casting aside attraction and aversion, dwelling in

> solitude,

> controlling speech, body and mind, engaged in meditation and

> concentration,

> free from self-sense, arrogance, violence, desire, anger, possession,

> ego-less

> and with total peace of mind. In conclusion, Vedic spirituality is not

> narrowly confined to any specific religion or belief. Divinity is always

> present when a person lives a spiritual life. It hardly matters whether

> that

> person believes in God. Belief in God is an inference and is not a

> statement!

> If I live according to the rules defined by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad

> Geeta, I

> implicitly believe in Lord Krishna. It hardly matters whether I state I

> believe in Lord Krishna or do not believe in Lord Krishna. Similarly if I

> state that I believe in Lord Krishna and if all my actions contradict my

> statement then by inference I am a nonbeliever. It is my opinion that the

> subtle message of Bhagavad Geeta is: "Actions are inevitable and excuses

> are

> indefensible."

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Harih Aum Kathirasanji:

 

Namaste,

 

I agree that the usage of the word, 'stupidity' is rather harsh. In

reality, calling Arujun, the greatest intellect of Mahabharat by names

such as 'stupid,' and/or 'coward' is not appropriate. We had an

earlier discussion lead by Gummuluruji on the topic why Arjun is not

coward! (interested members should refer back to the list archives)

 

In the context of chapter 1, stupidity is a reference to the logic

applied by the 'confused' Arjun. Any name calling strictly should be a

reference to the 'action' and not to the person. The entire

conversation in Gita between Arjun (the intellect) and Krishna (Atman

or the Total Consciousness)is symbolic and the purpose is to subdue

the intellect!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

 

advaitin , K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kkathir@m...>

wrote:

> Namaste

> .......

> While reading your introduction, I noticed that there is a statement

saying

> Arjuna was at a lost in the battlefield due to 'stupidity' among

other

> afflictions. But wouldn't the word 'confusion' be more appropriate

in that

> context? ......

[Guest guest]

Shri Ram Chandranji,

>The entire conversation in Gita between Arjun (the intellect) and Krishna

>(Atman or the Total Consciousness)is symbolic and the purpose is to subdue

>the intellect!

warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

 

Pranams!

 

I accidentally happened to read the above line of yours for I was reading

the thread for the first time. I am a little wary of your interpretation.

With due respects to your knowledge I present the following:

 

1] In the Vedantic literature, the imagery of chariot has been used in more

than one place. For eg., KathopaniSad - "AtmAnam rathinam viddhi...".

 

2] I have not come across the interpretation that the charioteer is the

Atman and the "rathi" - the traveller (or master) of the chariot is the

buddhi. In K.Up it is clear that the Atma is the rathi. [Here it should be

taken as the jIva that is essentially the Atman].

 

3] If one looks at the imagery, the reins are the mind (manah pragrahameva

cha), senses are the horses (indriyAn hayAnyahuhu). The mind is not

controlled by the Atman (directly) but by the buddhi. The buddhi gives

direction to the mind which implements it through the senses.

 

4] the "rathi", here Arjuna is the jIva. It is depressed/deluded/despondent

and has to be instructed its true nature. Instructions always takes place

at the buddhi.

 

5] The reason why one might have considered charioteer to be the Atman, is

because Lord Krishna is sitting there. So one wonders as to how Lord

Krishna can be the buddhi and Arjuna the jIva his master.

 

6] Here Lord Krishna is sitting as the buddhi. The reason is: in the final

analysis the buddhi that is instructed by the Guru is what instructs the

jIva the true nature of itself. So for the buddhi to instruct the jIva the

buddhi should be instructed by the Guru. The buddhi so instructed by the

Guru is literally one with the Guru, for if there is a difference the

communication (knowledge) is not complete, then more SrvaNam has to take

place. But a buddhi that has fully understood the Guru's teachings is one

with the Guru and hence the supreme knowledge. Such a buddhi instructs the

jIva of the Truth. That is how the presence of Krishna is the seat of the

charioteer assumes significance.

 

So as a conclusion, in the explanation above, I am not comfortable with the

intellect being Arjuna the traveller (to whom the chariot including the

charioteer belongs) and Krishna the Atman the charioteer.

 

And again, I don't understand the mention about subduing the intellect. The

intellect is the seat of nitya-anitya-vastu-viveka which is the basis of

puruSartha nischaya and mumukshutvam. Is it ever mentioned in the Gita that

the intellect has to be subdued ? I have heard of subduing the mind, not

the intellect.

 

The explanation that you have given does not seem to explain well. If I am

wrong please clarify.

 

Regards.

S. V. Subrahmanian.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Harih Om Subrahmanianji:

 

Namaskar,

 

Thanks for your excellent discussion using the allegorical reference

from KathopaniSad. With your framework and with the associated notions

and definitions, my statement will fall apart. But my framework is

quite simple, Arjun the person who asks the question, and Lord Krishna

the answerer to his questions. On the conversation mode, there is

duality - Bhagawan Krishna - human Arjun. In Chapter I, the human

intellect (Arjun) explains why he didn't want to fight. In chapters 1

to 19 the human intellect absorbs the Vedantic perspectives from Lord

Krishna (Total consciousness). In Chapter 18, Verse 66 Lord Krishna

commands Arjun to abaondon all duties and come to Him for shelter. Be

not grieved for I shall release thee from all evil.

(Sarvadharmaanparityajya maamekam sharanamvraja

Aham tvaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami maa shuchah)

 

Bhagawan asks Arjun to surrender his ego and leave all

responsibilities to Him. I believe that to surrender, one has to

subdue the intellect, otherwise it is impossible. Please understand

that I do not say that I am right, but I just say, I believe. As

vedantins, we can possibly also argure that one should sharpen the

intellect to get the Wisdom.

 

Teminologies, frameworks and logic are quite useful in understanding

Vedanta but they also have high potentials for confusion because our

believes vary. I am glad that you got the impulse to reply and it

turned out to be beneficial to everyone!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin , "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svskotra@h...>

wrote:

> Shri Ram Chandranji,

>

> >The entire conversation in Gita between Arjun (the intellect) and

Krishna

> >(Atman or the Total Consciousness)is symbolic and the purpose is to

subdue

> >the intellect!

> warmest regards,

> Ram Chandran

>

> Pranams!

>

> I accidentally happened to read the above line of yours for I was

reading

> the thread for the first time. I am a little wary of your

interpretation.

> With due respects to your knowledge I present the following:

>