The turning point

[Guest guest]

----Original Message-----

colette [colette]

 

advaitin , Gokulmuthu Narayanaswamy

<gokulmuthu> wrote:

> After the "turning point", the person is either in Savikalpa

> samadhi or Nirvikalpa samadhi. Once a devotee asked Sri Ramana

> Maharshi if he was in Savikalpa samadhi or Nirvikalpa samadhi.

> He replied that when his eyes were open, he was in Savikalpa

> samadhi and when his eyes were closed, he was in Nirvikalpa

> samadhi. What he meant was that when he perceived objects, he

> was in Savikalpa samadhi and when he did not perceive objects,

> he was in Nirvikalpa samadhi.

>

> I hope that makes it clear, though there was a diversion.

>

> With love,

> Gomu.

 

 

Hi. I would like to ask everyone if they can explain what these two

samadhis are like? Are they related to nirguna & saguna?

 

Peace,

 

Col

 

The Self is Always Self-Referring by nature. God Always Points to HimSelf,

there being nothing else. When the Self appears to refer to It Self through

the power of Maya, The Great Shakti which rises from the Self, that is

Savikalpa. Because the manifestations of the Goddess cannot be counted, the

types of and number of experiences in Savikalpa may said to be innumerable

and are not limited to but include a variety of mental states where thought

processes can be observed as going on automatically, visions of saints,

visitations to celestial heavens in the subtle body, perceptions of gods and

angels and appearances of the Goddess.

 

In Nirvikalpa, the agency of all experiences, Maya, the Great Mother, The

Shakti, The Supreme Goddess, The Inherent Power of the Self, Whose Nature is

That of Grace takes the mind and merges it in the Heart and Reveals HerSelf

to Be the Heart. The ancients called it "entering the Cave of the Heart."

For lack of better words, this state of Being may be called "Deep Awake".

It has no reference point as It Is Self. Only You. Only Self - Awake - Sat

Chit Ananda, devoid of the mind and all suffering.

 

Upon opening the eyes, One Knows that Nirvikalpa is not only the experience

but simultaneously the ground of all experience and perception and is

Ever-Present. We exist in that Only and We Are That. It permeates all

states of mind and all manifestations of Shakti and is the Changeless

Substance of Awareness from which all things arise. Now how will one truly

distinguish between Nirguna and Saguna and Savikalpa and Nirviakalpa? We

speak in one way or another due to our background, training, and learning,

and the Silence of the Heart supports it. Its light is always shining

through the mind as the mind cannot hide it completely. Upon the mind

becoming subtle and pure, it appears to shine forth more and more. The

Silent Self Awareness continuously Reveals It Self as our Self-Nature.

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

In his Drg-Drsya Viveka Bharati Tirtha explains thus:

 

1. Savikalpo nirvikalpahaa samaadhirdvividho hridi, Drsyashabdaanuvedhena

savikalpaha punardvidhaa.

 

Two kinds of samadhi to be practiced in the heart (within oneself) are known as

Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa. Savikalpa samadhi is again divided into two

classes,according to its association witrh a cognisable object or a sound (as an

object).

 

2. Kaamaadhyaaschittagaa drshyaastatsaakshitvena chetanam,

Dhyaayetdrshyaanuvidhoyam samaadhissavikalpaka.

 

Desires etc.,centered in the mind are to be treated as (cognisable)

objects.Meditate on Conciousness as their Witness.This is what is called

Savikalpa Samadhi associated with (cognisable) objects.

 

3. Asangassachidaanandasswaprabho dwaitavarjitahaa, Asmeetishabdaviddhoyam

samaadhissavikalpaka.

 

I am Existence-Conciousness-Bliss,un-attached,self-luminous and free from

duality.This is known as the other kind of savikalpa samadhi associated with

sound(object)

 

4. Swaanubhuutirasaaveashaaddrsyashabdaaupekshatu,

Nirvikalpassamaadhissyaannivaatasthitadeepavat.

 

But the Nirvikalpa samadhi is that in which the mind becomes steady like the

(Unflickearing flame of a ) light kept in a place free from wind and in which

the student becomes indifferent to both objects and sounds on account of his

complete absorption in the bliss of the realization of the Self.

 

5. Hrideeva bahyadesheapi yasmin kasmimscha vastuni,

Samaadhiraadhyassanmatraannaamarupapruthakruthihi.

 

The first kind of samadhi is possible with the help of any external object as it

is with the help of an internal object.In that samadhi the name and form are

seperated from what is Pure Existence.(Brahman)

 

6. Akhandaikarasam vastu sachidaanandalakshaNam, Ityavachinnachinteyam

samadhirmadhyamobhavet.

 

The entity which is (always) of the same nature and unlimited (By time, space

etc.,)and which is characterised by Existence-Conciousness-Bliss, is verily

Brahman.Such uninterrupted reflection is called the intermediate absorption,that

is the Savikalpa samadhi associatead with sound(object)

 

7. Stabdeebhaavorasaaswaadaattriteeyaha

puurvavanmataha,Etaissamaadhibhisshadbhihi nayetkaalam nirantaram.

 

The insensibility of the mind (to external objects) as before,on account of the

experience of Bliss, is designated as the third kind of samadhi

(Nirvikalpa).The practitioner should uninterruptedly spend his time in these six

kinds of samadhi.

 

8. Dehaabhimaane galite vigyaate paramaatmani, Yatra yatra mano yaati tatra

tatra samaadhayahaa.

 

With the disappearance of the attachment to the body and with the realization of

the Supreme Self, to whatever object the mind is directed one experiences

samadhi.

 

May our Ishtadevata and guru impel us to experience this SAMADHI.

 

Hari Om !

 

Swaminarayan

 

 

 

 

colette wrote:

 

 

Hi. I would like to ask everyone if they can explain what these two

samadhis are like? Are they related to nirguna & saguna?

 

Peace,

 

Col

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

----Original Message-----

Swaminarayan T [tvswaminarayan]

Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:37 AM

advaitin

Re: Re: The turning point

 

 

In his Drg-Drsya Viveka Bharati Tirtha explains thus:

 

But the Nirvikalpa samadhi is that in which the mind becomes steady like the

(Unflickearing flame of a ) light kept in a place free from wind and in

which the student becomes indifferent to both objects and sounds on account

of his complete absorption in the bliss of the realization of the Self.

__________________________

_____________________

Generally I agree with the spirit of this. Steadiness of the mind can

precede Self-Realization and may be considered a prerequisite. That is why

there is an emphasis on making the mind subtle and pure through the practice

of meditation and samadhi. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, however, the question of

mind being steady or indifferent to objects and sounds cannot arise at all

as the mind itself along with its powers of cognition and perception and

imagination disappears upon entering the Heart.

Harsha

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> ----Original Message-----

> colette@b... [colette@b...]

>

> advaitin , Gokulmuthu Narayanaswamy

> <gokulmuthu> wrote:

>

> > After the "turning point", the person is either in Savikalpa

> > samadhi or Nirvikalpa samadhi. Once a devotee asked Sri Ramana

> > Maharshi if he was in Savikalpa samadhi or Nirvikalpa samadhi.

> > He replied that when his eyes were open, he was in Savikalpa

> > samadhi and when his eyes were closed, he was in Nirvikalpa

> > samadhi. What he meant was that when he perceived objects, he

> > was in Savikalpa samadhi and when he did not perceive objects,

> > he was in Nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

I am enjoying all my brothers have to share. Thankyou to all who are.

This is very beautiful & helps me clarify. This explanation given here

above points to me of the continuined relationship between object &

subject as all the same one after the 'turning point'.

> > With love,

> > Gomu.

> The Self is Always Self-Referring by nature. God Always Points to

HimSelf,

> there being nothing else. When the Self appears to refer to It Self

through

> the power of Maya, The Great Shakti which rises from the Self, that

is

> Savikalpa. Because the manifestations of the Goddess cannot be

counted, the

> types of and number of experiences in Savikalpa may said to be

innumerable

> and are not limited to but include a variety of mental states where

thought

> processes can be observed as going on automatically, visions of

saints,

> visitations to celestial heavens in the subtle body, perceptions of

gods and

> angels and appearances of the Goddess.

>

> In Nirvikalpa, the agency of all experiences, Maya, the Great

Mother, The

> Shakti, The Supreme Goddess, The Inherent Power of the Self, Whose

Nature is

> That of Grace takes the mind and merges it in the Heart and Reveals

HerSelf

> to Be the Heart.

 

Maybe this question is inappropriate, but I wish to ask is Mother

earth the Great Mother heart beating, referred to here?

 

Is this implying value to what some feel is obstacle - 'maya'?

Is the relationship between 'maya' & Self valuable?

I just ask for opinions here.

 

Thanks for sharing everyone.

 

love,

 

Colette

 

The ancients called it "entering the Cave of the

Heart."

> For lack of better words, this state of Being may be called "Deep

Awake".

[Guest guest]

Dear Harshaji,

 

Most certainly,you have explained it nicely and we cannot agree with you

more.Has not Gaudapada said:

 

" Manasohyamaneebhave dwaitam naivopalabhyate " ? And again:

 

" Akalpakam ajam gyaanam gyeyaabhinnam prachakshate,Brahmagyeyam ajam nityam

ajenaajam vibhudyate."

 

Also:

 

" Yadaa na leeyate chittam nacha vikshipyate punaha, aninganam anaabhaasam

nishpannam BRAHMA tat tadaa "

 

Hari Om !

 

Swaminarayan

 

 

Harsha <harsha-hkl wrote:

In his Drg-Drsya Viveka Bharati Tirtha explains thus:

 

But the Nirvikalpa samadhi is that in which the mind becomes steady like the

(Unflickearing flame of a ) light kept in a place free from wind and in

which the student becomes indifferent to both objects and sounds on account

of his complete absorption in the bliss of the realization of the Self.

__________________________

_____________________

Generally I agree with the spirit of this. Steadiness of the mind can

precede Self-Realization and may be considered a prerequisite. That is why

there is an emphasis on making the mind subtle and pure through the practice

of meditation and samadhi. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, however, the question of

mind being steady or indifferent to objects and sounds cannot arise at all

as the mind itself along with its powers of cognition and perception and

imagination disappears upon entering the Heart.

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> Is this implying value to what some feel is obstacle - 'maya'?

> Is the relationship between 'maya' & Self valuable?

> I just ask for opinions here.

>

-

- The following are extracted from 'Vedanta Heart of Hinduism'

by Hans TorWesten

-

In the Upanishads, the actual basis for Vedanta, the word 'maya'

hardly occurs at all. In the comparatively late Svetasvatara

Upanishad, maya is said to be "the [creative] power belonging to the

Lord Himself and hidden in its gunas."

....<Author gives examples of Maya being conceived negatively and

positively>...

To this great Vedanta philosopher (Shankara) the entire world of

phenomena - from the tiniest blade of grass to the creator-god--is

maya...In most of his writings Shankara avoids establishing any

connection between maya and the highest Brahman and thus to attribute

a "meaning" to Creation. ... Occasionally, almost as a concession,

Shankara refers to Brahman as the very basis for the phenomenal

world... Nama-rupa is responsible for our viewing this world as an

independant reality, as something separate from, or outside of,

Brahman -- the truly one-without-a-second. Once enlightenment is

attained this "world" disappears. But, we may ask, does it really

disappear altogether--or does it then reveal itself in its pure

Brahman state ? Or are they perhaps the same?

 

To Ramakrishna, Kali is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali.

It is one and the same Reality. When we think of It as inactive, that

is to say, not engaged in acts of creation, preservation, and

destruction, then we call It Brahman. But when It engages in these

activities, then we call It Kali or Shakti. The Reality is one and

the same; the difference is in name and form. He insisted that, "My

Divine Mother is none other than the Brahman...""Brahman and Shakti

are identical. If you accept the one, you must accept the other..."

 

Ramakrishna saw maya as being of two kinds. He said that avidya-maya

(the maya of ignorence) deluded, but that vidya-maya(the maya of

wisdom) "begets devotion, kindness, wisdom and love, which leads to

God. Avidya must be propitiated, and that is the purpose of the rites

of Shakti worship....

....It must not be forgotten, however, that Ramakrishna himself nudged

his disciples toward Advaita. ...

 

With Love,

Raghava

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

It would be hard to excel the answers that Ramana Maharshi

gave on the subject of samadhi: [Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi,5th

ed., 1972; Ramanashram,Tiruvannamalai]

 

p.84: "When the senses are merged in darkness it is deep sleep;

when merged in light it is samadhi.

Just as a passenger when asleep in a carriage is unaware of the

motion, the halting or the unharnessing of the horses, so also a

jnani in sahaja samadhi is unaware of the happenings, waking,dream

and deep sleep. Here sleep corresponds to the unharnessing of the

horse. And samadhi corresponds to the halting of the horse, because

the senses are ready to act as the horses are ready to move after

halting.

 

In samadhi the head does not bend down because the senses are ther

though inactive; whereas the head bends down in sleep because the

senses are merged in drkness.

In kevala samadhi, the activities [vital and mental], waking, dream

and sleep, are only merged, ready to emerge after regaining the state

other than samadhi.

 

In sahaja samadhi the activities, vital and mental, and the three

states are destroyed, never to re-appear. However others notice the

jnani active, e.g. eating, talking, moving, etc. He is not himself

aware of these activities, whereas others are aware of his

activities. They pertain to his body and not to his Real Self,

swarupa. For himself, he is like the sleeping passenger --or like a

child interrupted from sound sleep and fed, being unaware of it. The

child says the next day that he did not take milk at all and that he

went to sleep without it. Even when reminded he cannot be convinced.

So also is sahaja samadhi.

 

sushumna pare leena--here sushumna refers to tapo marga, whereas the

para nadi refers to jnana marga."

 

p. 105: "Samadhi transcends mind and speech, and cannot be described.

For example, the state of deep slumber cannot be described; samadhi

state can still less be explained.....Consciousness and

unconsciousness are only modes of the mind. Samadhi transcends the

mind."

 

p. 121: " Samadhi is one's natural state. It is the under-current in

all the three states. This--that is 'I'--is not in those states, but

these states are in it. If we get samadhi in our waking state that

will persist in deep sleep also.

 

p. 123: " Jnana, once revealed, takes time to steady itself. The Self

is certainly within the direct experience of everyone, but not as one

imagines it to be. It is only as it is. This Experience is samadhi.

 

p. 135: " When the one who asks the nature of samadhi and the method

of getting into it vanishes, samadhi will result.

 

p. 357: " Holding on to Reality is samadhi.

Holding on to Reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi.

Merging in Reality and remaining unaware of the world is

nirvikalpa samadhi.

Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is

sleep. [Head bends, but not in samadhi].

Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort

is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.

Samadhi means passing beyond dehatma buddhi [i-am-the-body

idea] and non-identification of the body with the Self is a foregone

conclusion.

 

p. 358: " The yogis call it Kundalini Shakti. It is the same as

vritti of the form of God {Bhagavatakara vritti] of the bhaktas and

vritti of the form of Brahman [brahmakara vritti] of the jnanis. It

must be preliminary to Realization . The sensation produced may be

said to be hot.

The kundalini of jnana marga is said to be the Heart, which

is also described in various ways as a network of nadis, of the shape

of a serpent , of a lotus-bud, etc....

The Heart is the origin of the 'I'-thought.

 

p. 381: " External samadhi is holding on to the Reality while

witnessing the world, without reacting to it from within. There is

stillnes of a waveless ocean. The internal samadhi involves loss of

body-consciousness.

What is body-consciousness? Analyse it. There must be a body and

consciousness limited to it which together make up body-

consciousness. These must lie in another Consciousnesswhich is

absolute and unaffected. Hold it. That is samadhi. It exists when

there is no body-consciousness because it transcends the latter, it

also exists when there is the body-consciousness.. So it is always

there. What does it matter whether body-consciousness is is lost or

retained? When lost it is internal samdhi; when retained it is

external samadhi. That is all. A person must remain in any one of the

six samadhis so that sahaja samadhi may be easy for him.

 

p. 552: " What is samadhi? Samadhi is one's essential nature. How

then can it come and go?

 

p. 553: " The effortless samadhi is the true one and the perfect

state. It is permanent....

When the real, effortless, permanent, happy natureis realised it will

be found to be not inconsistent with the ordinary activities of life."

 

On page 359, there is a tabular representation, which I shall try to

copy in a future post.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan>

wrote:

>

> Dear Harshaji,

>

> Most certainly,you have explained it nicely and we cannot agree

with you more.Has not Gaudapada said:

>

> " Manasohyamaneebhave dwaitam naivopalabhyate " ? And again:

>

> " Akalpakam ajam gyaanam gyeyaabhinnam prachakshate,Brahmagyeyam

ajam nityam ajenaajam vibhudyate."

>

> Also:

>

> " Yadaa na leeyate chittam nacha vikshipyate punaha, aninganam

anaabhaasam nishpannam BRAHMA tat tadaa "

>

> Hari Om !

>

> Swaminarayan

>

>

> Harsha <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> In his Drg-Drsya Viveka Bharati Tirtha explains thus:

>

> But the Nirvikalpa samadhi is that in which the mind becomes steady

like the

> (Unflickearing flame of a ) light kept in a place free from wind

and in

> which the student becomes indifferent to both objects and sounds on

account

> of his complete absorption in the bliss of the realization of the

Self.

>

____________________

______

> _____________________

> Generally I agree with the spirit of this. Steadiness of the mind

can

> precede Self-Realization and may be considered a prerequisite. That

is why

> there is an emphasis on making the mind subtle and pure through the

practice

> of meditation and samadhi. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, however, the

question of

> mind being steady or indifferent to objects and sounds cannot arise

at all

> as the mind itself along with its powers of cognition and

perception and

> imagination disappears upon entering the Heart.

> Harsha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , raghavakaluri wrote:

> advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> > Is this implying value to what some feel is obstacle - 'maya'?

> > Is the relationship between 'maya' & Self valuable?

> > I just ask for opinions here.

> >

> Ramakrishna saw maya as being of two kinds. He said that avidya-maya

> (the maya of ignorence) deluded, but that vidya-maya(the maya of

> wisdom) "begets devotion, kindness, wisdom and love, which leads to

> God. Avidya must be propitiated, and that is the purpose of the

rites

> of Shakti worship....

> ...It must not be forgotten, however, that Ramakrishna himself

nudged

> his disciples toward Advaita. ...

>

> With Love,

> Raghava

 

Oh this is beautiful. I think I like this Ramakrishna.

 

My teachers warn about going too far & the word laish adidya is used

(spelling)? In any case it means keeping a carefully managed speck of

ignorance in order to maintain a form so as to experience

enlightenment here on earth in form.

 

Peace,

 

Colette

[Guest guest]

raghavakaluri wrote:

>

> advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> > Is this implying value to what some feel is obstacle - 'maya'?

> > Is the relationship between 'maya' & Self valuable?

> > I just ask for opinions here.

> >

> -

> - The following are extracted from 'Vedanta Heart of Hinduism'

> by Hans TorWesten...

>

> [...]

 

 

i agree with smt coletteji.

 

the importance of the above excerpt cannot be overestimated!

 

love ONE!

[Guest guest]

As Smt.ColetteJi and Sri MaielloJi had correctly put it, the quoted

excerpt cannot be overestimated.

 

As prospective Vedantins, I believe we must try to understand the

essence of seemingly divergent notions. Any differences may be

blessings in disguise for all we know -- Atman being Infinite and

unconditioned cannot be limited.

 

As Swami Vivekananda says in his Lahore Address on Advaita Vedanta:

 

"It is true that the Upanishads have this one theme before them: What

is that knowing which we know everything else? In modern language,

the theme of the Upanishads is to find an ultimate unity of things.

 

In the three systems(Dvaita,Advaita,VishishtaAdvaita), we find the

gradual working up of the human mind towards higher and higher

ideals, till everything is merged in that wonderful unity which is

reached in the Advaita system. Therefore, these three are not

contradictory.

 

Nearly every chapter in the Upanishads begins with the dualistic

teaching, Upasana(Meditation). God is first taught as some one who is

the Creator of this universe,its Presrver, and unto whom everything

goes at last. He is one to be worshipped, the Ruler, the Guide of

nature, external and internal, yet appearing as if He were outside of

nature and external. One step further, and we find the same teacher

teaching that this God is not outside of nature, but immanent in

nature. And at last both ideas are discarded, and whatever is real is

He; there is no difference. Shvetaketu, That thou art."

 

With Love and Kindest Regards,

Raghava

 

 

advaitin , "f. maiello" <egodust@d...> wrote:

> raghavakaluri wrote:

> >

> > advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> > > Is this implying value to what some feel is obstacle - 'maya'?

> > > Is the relationship between 'maya' & Self valuable?

> > > I just ask for opinions here.

> > >

> >

-

> > - The following are extracted from 'Vedanta Heart of Hinduism'

> > by Hans TorWesten...

> >

> > [...]

>

>

> i agree with smt coletteji.

>

> the importance of the above excerpt cannot be overestimated!

>

> love ONE!

[Guest guest]

advaitin , raghavakaluri wrote:

>

One step further, and we find the same teacher

> teaching that this God is not outside of nature, but immanent in

> nature. And at last both ideas are discarded, and whatever is real

is

> He; there is no difference. Shvetaketu, That thou art."

>

> With Love and Kindest Regards,

> Raghava

 

Hello Raghava, synchronous with this exploration I feel is this quote

which someone shared with me yesterday ..

 

"Sometimes I know that I am everything & I call that love.

Sometimes I know that I am nothing & I call that wisdom.

Between love & wisdom my life continually flows."

 

Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

I would like to share this too by Jnaneshwar.

 

"Words cannot even reach

To the place of the Self.

How, then, can the intellect

Comprehend Him as an object?

 

How can one acknowledge

The absence of sight in the Self,

And yet attribute vision to It?

 

He cannot experience His own existence

As an object of perception;

Therefore, He cannot be a perceiver.

 

In such a case who will meet who?

How can there be vision

Where there is only One?

 

But He has flung open

The doors of perception in man,

And thus overcome this great obstacle!

 

Innumerable forms & visions arise,

But it is one pure Consciousness

Which is the substance of all.

 

The one, underlying, supreme Consciousness

Is so intoxicated by the great Glory

Of this vision,

That He does not see Himself

In this mirror

Wearing the same jewelry twice ..

 

As the perceiving subject,

He is also incessantly changing

The ornaments of His perception ..

 

The interplay of give & take goes on,

But the thread of unity is never broken.

The unity of a person's face

Is not altered by being reflected

In a mirror;

 

Nor is the standing position

Of a sleeping horse

Disturbed when it awakes.

 

Just as water plays with itself

By assuming the forms of waves,

The Self, the ultimate Reality,

Plays happily with Himself ..

 

Though a lotus blossom contains

A thousand petals,

Still it is one ..

 

Though there are multitudes

Of visible objects,

And wave upon wave of images,

Still, they are not different

>From their witness.

 

You may break a lump of raw sugar

Into a million pieces;

Still, there is nothing but sugar.

 

Likewise the Self,

Though He perceives images,

Or manifest forms of manifold objects,

Does not become thereby a different thing.

 

The unity of the Self is not lost,

Even though He fills the whole universe ..

 

At any place at any time,

The seer & seen

May embrace each other, & merge ..

 

When the perceiver & the perceived

Meet & unite,

There is no more perception.

 

The eastern sea & the western sea are different

Only so long as they do not mingle.

But once they have intermingled,

There is only water.

 

Every moment, new triads

Of perceiver, perception & perceived,

Are emerging.

Does each one need to be analysed?

 

A particular quality is swallowed up

And its opposite emerges.

This is the opening & the closing

Of the eye of Reality."

 

Jnaneshwar ~ Amritanubhav