Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Message: 4 Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:37:44 -0500 "K. Sadananda" <sada Re: Comments on BSB I-i-1-1F >Dennis wrote: > >In so far as knowledge can ever be gained about brahman (and clearly it can’ >t), it must be true that Vedanta is the principal pramaaNam. But surely, the >testimony of sages, especially living sages is also a valid source? Also, do >not most people accept that some modern sages have used the technique of >self-enquiry (successfully) without Vedanta? ............the ‘search’ continued until exhausted with the understanding that the searcher was also the sought. > >Dennis > Dennis - what you say, in principle, is O.K. At one stage in my life I used to argue that way too. I began to realize one thing which is very important - for that I have to thank Shree Vidya, Shree Anand and Swami Atmanandaji who provided input for me to think more and realize the fallacy in my arguments. .......... In his book "I am that" Nisargadatta maharaj talks about the tradition that he comes from - a guru parampara. The question that boils down to - how will I know that the intense blissful experience that I have is the final or not - For that scriptures is the only valid and independent pramaaNa - Hence Vedanta as the valid means for vichaara. Comments from others are welcome. Hari Om! Sadananda I am fascinated by this discussion. Although I have not read even a tenth of what Sri Dennis and Sri Sadananda have read, I am wondering how one can verify one's experience or answers with the Vedanta PramaaNa. As I understand, the seeker has to continue seeking and will ultimately realize Brahman with the grace of God. From what I have seen in this Digest discussions or in Gita, that Brahman realization is a highly individual experience that cannot be described in words or pictures. Thus it cannot be verified by Vedanta Pramaana. It is possible that a Guru can help the disciple discriminate between the true Brahmi Sthithi from false ecstasies. Probably, vedanta provides a one particular road map to achieve that state but not the only map. That is why I feel that what Sri Dennis says about any path leading to that Brahmi Sthithi may be acceptable. This may also be the basis of other paths such as Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga etc. With respects to all, Subbarao Sincerely, Subbarao Bondada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 > That is why I feel that what Sri Dennis says about >any path leading to that Brahmi Sthithi may be acceptable. This may also be >the basis of other paths such as Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga etc. > >With respects to all, > >Subbarao >Sincerely, > >Subbarao Bondada Shree Subbarao garu Namaste and welcome to the discussions. In looking at this problem we need to consider the following things too. 1. Experience is not knowledge. Experience can lead to knowledge provided we have a valid pramaaNa. Actually there is not a single moment we do not experience ourselves. We also experience the world too. But there is no knowledge other than the relative knowledge only because, we take the duality as reality. Vedanta comes to our rescue to inform us that this duality is only apparent and not real. The reality is the absolute unchanging eternal substratum Brahman. 2. Still that does not help us fully until the mother shruti tells us that that substratum Brahman is nothing but you. - That is the pramaaNa I am referring to in the notes. Without that I may experience intense bliss, as in some experiences we have, but the knowledge that that state of bliss is the absolute state can only be gained by valid pramaaNa and Vedanata provides that. 3. Also the knowledge that the seeker and sought are one and the same comes from Veda pramaaNa only. These are accepted only by Adviatins others darshanika-s do not accept that. 4. If the seeker and the sought are one and the same there cannot be any path since path implies that the seeker is different from the sought. Hence the paths that you mentioned are for acquiring the Sadhana chatusTayam that was discussed with reference to the first word of the suutra. 5. All this discussion of course is from the point of Advaita Vedanta. In his comments Dennis wants to include in the shabda pramaaNa - the aapta vaakya or the words of the wise sages. There is no problem if the words of the sages coincide with the statements of Vedanta. In Brahmasuutra, as we will see in due course, Vyaasaachaarya accepts the parts of Sankhya etc that which agree with the Vedanata. The second chapter of Geeta is just full of Sankhya yoga only. But rejects components of their theories that deviate from Vedanta. It all boils down to for astika-s as Vyaasaacharya argues that Vedanta is the final authority. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Pranams, The veda pramaaNa has a far more profound meaning than the intellect can even grasp. Four levels of 'speech' are recognised in our 'shaastras': vaikhari, madhyamaa, pashyanti, and paraa. Intellectual discussions are at the level of ordinary, waking language. It can only point to existence of something deeper, in meaning or alternate ideas. As the 'purity' of intellect and feeling deepens, words of prose arise bordering on poetry: like Shakespeare's - 'All the world is a stage...' On a deeper level,, poetry like Milton's :'O, holy light! of heav'n first-born!' [Paradise Lost]. On a still deeper level, there are the utterances from Gita: 'aham aatmaa guDaakesha sarvabhuutaashayasthitaH .'; 'tvamavyayaH shaashvatadharmagoptaa sanatanastvaM purushho mato me .' And even deeper than this is paraa vaaNii : when the sages who touched the shores of THAT SILENCE in samaadhi, uttered the profoundest words [mantras, chhandas] and called them 'apaurushheya', not uttered through their personal efforts: all the mahaa-vaakyas 'tat tvam asi, sarva.n khalu idaM brahma...' Every sage who has touched the shore, has confirmed the Vedas. THAT is the reason for VEDA PRAMANA! If by proof is meant that 'vaikhari' can ever disprove the vedas, it will be like, in Jnaneshvara's simile: 'rolling up the sky like a blanket!' This also relates to the most recent posting [#24] from Vivekananda Center about the power of words. Music is sound without words, and adds to the Divinity of words; is it any wonder that Gita mentions as one of the 'vibhuuti's [glories] of the Supreme: 'vedaanaa.n saamavedaH asmi' .[Among vedas I am the Sama Veda- the veda that is sung. Infact, one of the UpaVedas, Gandharva Veda is the Science of Divine Music. When the human mind is intoxicated with Divine Love, the words flow unceasingly, and Indian languages are replete with examples of such compositions. Regards, s. advaitin , "K. Sadananda" <sada@a...> wrote: > > That is why I feel that what Sri Dennis says about > >any path leading to that Brahmi Sthithi may be acceptable. This may also be > >the basis of other paths such as Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga etc. > > > >With respects to all, > > > >Subbarao > >Sincerely, > > > >Subbarao Bondada > > Shree Subbarao garu > > Namaste and welcome to the discussions. In looking at this problem > we need to consider the following things too. > > 1. Experience is not knowledge. Experience can lead to knowledge > provided we have a valid pramaaNa. Actually there is not a single > moment we do not experience ourselves. We also experience the world > too. But there is no knowledge other than the relative knowledge only > because, we take the duality as reality. Vedanta comes to our rescue > to inform us that this duality is only apparent and not real. The > reality is the absolute unchanging eternal substratum Brahman. > > 2. Still that does not help us fully until the mother shruti tells us > that that substratum Brahman is nothing but you. - That is the > pramaaNa I am referring to in the notes. Without that I may > experience intense bliss, as in some experiences we have, but the > knowledge that that state of bliss is the absolute state can only be > gained by valid pramaaNa and Vedanata provides that. > > 3. Also the knowledge that the seeker and sought are one and the same > comes from Veda pramaaNa only. These are accepted only by Adviatins > others darshanika-s do not accept that. > > 4. If the seeker and the sought are one and the same there cannot be > any path since path implies that the seeker is different from the > sought. Hence the paths that you mentioned are for acquiring the > Sadhana chatusTayam that was discussed with reference to the first > word of the suutra. > > 5. All this discussion of course is from the point of Advaita Vedanta. > > In his comments Dennis wants to include in the shabda pramaaNa - the > aapta vaakya or the words of the wise sages. There is no problem if > the words of the sages coincide with the statements of Vedanta. In > Brahmasuutra, as we will see in due course, Vyaasaachaarya accepts > the parts of Sankhya etc that which agree with the Vedanata. The > second chapter of Geeta is just full of Sankhya yoga only. But > rejects components of their theories that deviate from Vedanta. It > all boils down to for astika-s as Vyaasaacharya argues that Vedanta > is the final authority. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > > -- > K. Sadananda > Code 6323 > Naval Research Laboratory > Washington D.C. 20375 > Voice (202)767-2117 > Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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