No need for verification

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadananda and Swaminarayan,

 

 

You say “By inquiring oneself - who am I- one can arrive to a stage that I

am

not this, not this. By negating everything - I may reach a conclusion that I

am none of

this but yet what I am - I would not know.” “Where do I get that knowledge

from? -directly or indirectly from Vedanta.”

 

And you talk about “- A confirmation of the experience as the knowledge

through pramaaNa.”, “How can I confirm? etc. But ultimately the

unquestionable source is the Veda pramaaNa for those who are astika-s.” and

“- a true teacher is also is the one who has confirmed his inward experience

as the ultimate truth through a proper pramaaNa - otherwise he himself is

not sure what that experience is.” And “The question that boils down to -

how will I know that the intense blissful experience that I have is the

final one or not - For that scriptures is the only valid and independent

pramaaNa.” And “In order for the searcher to come to the understanding

(ie.,realization) that the searcher was also the sought he has to take the

cue for this intution from a 'shabda pramana'only as any other inquiry will

be rejected by him as unsatisfactory!”

 

I confess to being mystified!

 

We have spoken before about any scripture (or other means) being like the

pole that a pole-vaulter uses to raise himself to the bar. Once the body

reaches the bar, he must release the pole in order to be able to pass over.

In the same way, once realisation is attained, the scripture is no longer

needed. If realisation has indeed taken place in a particular body-mind

mechanism, where is the need to go to the Vedas or any other pramaaNa for

verification? Surely only the ego could want to check to see if the ‘state’

experienced corresponds with a description given in the Vedas? If there is

genuine realisation, there would no longer be any ego or state.

 

There can be no need to go and look to check in which direction the finger

is pointing if he is now looking directly at the moon himself.

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote:

> Dear Sadananda and Swaminarayan,

>

> I confess to being mystified!

>

> We have spoken before about any scripture (or other means) being

like the

> pole that a pole-vaulter uses to raise himself to the bar. Once the

body

> reaches the bar, he must release the pole in order to be able to

pass over.

> In the same way, once realisation is attained, the scripture is no

longer

> needed. If realisation has indeed taken place in a particular body-

mind

> mechanism, where is the need to go to the Vedas or any other

pramaaNa for

> verification? Surely only the ego could want to check to see if

the `state'

> experienced corresponds with a description given in the Vedas? If

there is

> genuine realisation, there would no longer be any ego or state.

>

> There can be no need to go and look to check in which direction the

finger

> is pointing if he is now looking directly at the moon himself.

 

Maybe there is a Cosmic Mind, with ego tamed & in service. Maybe

there are stages of taming & integrating. Many talk like it all just

happens & is done in a moment. I think it is gradual refinement &

aligment even with some powerful happenings ..

 

Peace,

 

Col

>

> Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Dennis's point is confirmed by the Vedas themselves! One who

realises the Self transcends even the Vedas. Those who are not ready

for this leap, Vedas act as a sure guide, because those who have

realised the Self confirm their authenticity.

 

Colette's comment is interesting and has a most remarkable

reference to back it up:

 

Gurudev Ranade [1887-1957], the mystic-philosopher par excellence,

writes this: ["The BhagavadGita as a Philosophy of God-Realisation",

3rd ed. 1982, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan; p. 63]

 

"Jnaneshvara next makes a very original contribution to the

philosophy of mysticism. This is what might be called his doctrine of

asymptotism. Under this we shall discuss two points: 1) asymptotic

realisation; and 2) the doctrine that perfection can be attained only

gradually. We are familiar with the word 'asymptote' in mathematics.

A curve and an axis approaching each other infinitely and meeting at

infinity is the essence of asymptotic approximation. What we find in

the case of an aspiring mystic is that he goes on asymptotically

approaching God. That is Jnaneshvara's doctrine. Instead of there

being a final and perfect identity between the mystic and God, the

mystic moves towards God and so we may say that he meets God at

infinity. There is just alittele difference between them. Just as

there is difference between the moon of the fourteenth day and the

fullmoon of the fifteenth day, or just as gold of 15 carats just

falls short of gold of sixteen carats, to that extent only does the

devotee fall short of full divine attainment. As one can distinguish

between the sea and the riverby the stillness and the motion of the

waters, similarly in the case of God and devotee also we can make a

slight distinction. 'The devotee attains to the Godhead, falling just

short of His entire Being.'(Jnaneshvari XVIII:1087-1090). The reason

for this approximation or asymptotic realisation is the physical, the

mental, and other limitations of the mystic. So long as he has a body

and a mind and has to live in the world, to that extent and till that

time he must fall short of complete divine attainment.

'Even though the devotee may reach unison with God, yet he remains a

devotee. The saint remains a saint so long as he has to discharge his

bodily functions.' [Jnaneshvari VII:114, 117].

Jnaneshvara further proceeds to talk of the gradual and graduated

perfection in the mystic. It is the time factor that counts. A man

who starts on his journey must not expect to reach the end at once.

There is bound to be a time interval between initiation and

realisation. A Sadhaka who gets himself initiated by a teacher must

work and wait for attaining realisation and liberation. It will

require a good deal of time before he conquers his mind and

intellect, devotes himself entirely to God, makes possible some

definite attainment in that line and ultimately achieve divine

realisation. So, iniatiation and realisation should not be spoken of

in the same breath. Perfection is only gradual. A gardner might

sprinkle water upon the trees and the plants, but it is only after

the spring sets in that the trees and plants bear fruit. Also

Jnaneshvara here makes a fine remark that the great God Sankara

Himself is only a pilgrim journeying on the spiritual path. He has

just made an approximation to the infinitude of God; and if this

happens in the case of God Sankara, far more must it happen in the

case of us small mortals.

'Granted that all the preparation is made for the realisation of God,

that one meets the Guru, that the Guru imparts to him the knowledge

of the true path; granted that the seed that is sown is the best of

its kind, yet it is only in the course of time that a rich harvest

can be reaped.' (Jnaneshvari, XVIII:996-1008)."

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote:

> > Dear Sadananda and Swaminarayan,

> >

> > I confess to being mystified!

> >

> > We have spoken before about any scripture (or other means) being

> like the

> > pole that a pole-vaulter uses to raise himself to the bar. Once

the

> body

> > reaches the bar, he must release the pole in order to be able to

> pass over.

> > In the same way, once realisation is attained, the scripture is

no

> longer

> > needed. If realisation has indeed taken place in a particular

body-

> mind

> > mechanism, where is the need to go to the Vedas or any other

> pramaaNa for

> > verification? Surely only the ego could want to check to see if

> the `state'

> > experienced corresponds with a description given in the Vedas? If

> there is

> > genuine realisation, there would no longer be any ego or state.

> >

> > There can be no need to go and look to check in which direction

the

> finger

> > is pointing if he is now looking directly at the moon himself.

>

> Maybe there is a Cosmic Mind, with ego tamed & in service. Maybe

> there are stages of taming & integrating. Many talk like it all

just

> happens & is done in a moment. I think it is gradual refinement &

> aligment even with some powerful happenings ..

>

> Peace,

>

> Col

>

> >

> > Dennis