The four states

[Guest guest]

Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do you

reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and enlightenment

- with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these states?

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

advaitin , "nanda chandran" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do you

> reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and enlightenment

> - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these states?

 

The Atman does nothing except provide the light of awareness whereby

all these things are experienced.

 

Just as the Earth supports all life yet remains relatively motionless,

or as the sun shines on all equally yet remains far out in space, the

Atman provides the ground which allows existence to be experienced,

but Itself is not sullied by any and all that occurs in the relative

planes of existence.

[Guest guest]

Jagrat , Sushupti, Swapna are all various vrittis in

the lake of the mind. Atman is also nothing but this

same lake of the mind where the Vrittis are no longer

present. To answer your question, Jiva is like a fish

floating on top of this lake disturbed by all the

waves. Atma is the same fish floating in the depths of

the lake, no ripple , no wave.

 

Regards,

Anand

 

--- nanda chandran <vpcnk wrote:

> Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the

> list : How do you

> reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep

> sleep and enlightenment

> - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do,

> in these states?

>

>

 

 

 

Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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[Guest guest]

Atman awakes

Atman smells

Atman tastes

Atman touches

Atman sees

Atman hears

Atman sleeps

Atman dreams

Atman creates

Atman protects

Atman destroys

Atman projects

Atman shines

Atman darkens

Atman mirages

Atman mystifies

Atman enquires

Atman answers

Atman doubts

Atman ridicules

Atman reconciles

Atman constitutes

Atman suppresses

Atman suppresses

Atman puzzles

Atman meditates

Atman silences

Atman realizes!

 

 

advaitin , "nanda chandran" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do

you

> reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

enlightenment

> - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these

states?

>

> _______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

>Atman awakes

>Atman smells

>Atman tastes

>Atman touches

>Atman sees

>Atman hears

>Atman sleeps

>Atman dreams

>Atman creates

>Atman protects

>Atman destroys

>Atman projects

>Atman shines

>Atman darkens

>Atman mirages

>Atman mystifies

>Atman enquires

>Atman answers

>Atman doubts

>Atman ridicules

>Atman reconciles

>Atman constitutes

>Atman suppresses

>Atman suppresses

>Atman puzzles

>Atman meditates

>Atman silences

>Atman realizes!

 

Yet - atman does not do any of these - no agency for any of these can

be attritbuted for the one without a second.

 

akartaaham abhoktaaham ahamevaaya avyayaH -

 

aham kartaa - aham bhokta are due to adhyaasa.

 

In the presence of atman - it is as though everything is being done -

yet nothing is really done since there is nothing other than aatma.

 

It is like my putting out the blazing fire of a multi story building

using a water hose - all in a dream while I am sound asleep where

there is neither building nor fire nor the water or the hose. Am a

doer or non-doer? - depends with what I identify myself as - one is

knowledge and the other is ignorance.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>advaitin , "nanda chandran" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

>> Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do

>you

> > reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

>enlightenment

>> - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these

>states?

>>

>> _______________

>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

>Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

>of Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

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--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Harih Aum!

 

I don't know whether I am the doer or the non-doer;

Certainly, I am the SPECULATOR!

Tat tvam asi!!

 

Ram Chandran

> In the presence of atman - it is as though everything is being done

-

> yet nothing is really done since there is nothing other than aatma.

>

> It is like my putting out the blazing fire of a multi story building

> using a water hose - all in a dream while I am sound asleep where

> there is neither building nor fire nor the water or the hose. Am a

> doer or non-doer? - depends with what I identify myself as - one is

> knowledge and the other is ignorance.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

623

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The verse to meditate on:

 

Gita 13:22

 

upadrashhTaa anumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshvaraH .

paramaatmaa iti cha api uktaH dehe asmin purushhaH paraH ..

 

"The highest Spirit in this body is called the witness, the

consenter, the supporter, the experiencer, the great Lord, and also

the supreme Spirit."

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

advaitin , "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Harih Aum!

>

> I don't know whether I am the doer or the non-doer;

> Certainly, I am the SPECULATOR!

> Tat tvam asi!!

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> > In the presence of atman - it is as though everything is being

done

> -

> > yet nothing is really done since there is nothing other than

aatma.

> >

> > It is like my putting out the blazing fire of a multi story

building

> > using a water hose - all in a dream while I am sound asleep where

> > there is neither building nor fire nor the water or the hose. Am

a

> > doer or non-doer? - depends with what I identify myself as - one

is

> > knowledge and the other is ignorance.

> >

> > Hari Om!

> > Sadananda

> 623

[Guest guest]

nanda chandran [vpcnk]

The four states

 

Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do you

reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

enlightenment

- with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these states?

--\

-----------------------

 

Hari Om,

Recently we had a satsang, and a few seekers from India have asked

Madhava about this topic, and this was his reply. I thought it would be

helpful on Advaitin list. So I have taken the liberty of posting it

here.

Regards,

Gasusima

--\

-----------------------------

 

There are three known states to human body

1. Waking state (jAgrata)

2. Dream state (in sleep - swapna)

3. Deep Sleep state (sushupti)

In the waking state... We are all separate... you are different than

me. I

am different than you. We talk to each other and laugh and think and

engage

ourselves with all our limbs. That is what you can say as "Dvaita"

where

GOD the omnipotent is different than me. MiraBai and all great saints

at

that state are good examples.

For them Krishna used to appear and talk to them. They used to play and

ask

him for guidance. He is their protector.

 

NOW, let us go in to the dream state

It is a state which is slightly different from waking state. Yes in

Dream

state... WE ALL JUST GET DISCONNECTED JUST THUS [having lost internet

connection]. We think for ourselves for some time just thus . Whereas

in

the earlier state --- i.e. waking state we all were connected.

That is physical world.

When we all got disconnected it is *individual world*

No more collective world.

Okay from the waking state to the dream state.

Earlier the stage is the *entire* world

Whereas now the stage is *yourself*

If you think that you did not put a question to Tatagaru in the waking

state

and go to sleep in and dream about it, you will see Tatagaru *in*

yourself,

you will see the entire room, the computer and all. BUT then where is

all

this world created? In you!

This is called as "VisisTAdvaita" , qualified non-dualism where you are

a

part of GOD's dream. You are a part and parcel of him, yet different

from

him... YOu are in him but separate from him. Just like I am a part of

your

dream and somebody else is a part of my dream... We are all part of

GOD's

dream, he creates us and he destroys us.

 

Then we go in to the deep sleep state where you enjoy absolute bliss.

You

neither know about you nor you know about the world. This state can be

said

to be next to the "advaitic" state --- you are nothing but what you

experience.

 

Just like all these three states are experienced by same individual,

sadhana

is performed in all these three paths by the soul. Soul attains

perfection

as it gets pleased with the way! It is not difficult to achieve. How

much

time does it take to go to deep sleep state? How much time to come out

of

it? BTW, it is not your effort but you experience it automatically.

 

BUT Dvaita there is fun in it. To see your GOD and to talk to him is

something like a divine pastime. Gopies in Brindavan longed for it...

They

always thought of Krishna and the good days to spend with him. That is

dvaita avastha. But their state is physical... That is the reason they

didn't mind to give their paadadhooli to Narada when Krishna was having

headache. After Krishna left Brindavan, gopies could never meet him.

 

ANYWAY, what we should understand is that souls choose their own way...

We

can't say something is higher or something is lower. Ultimately you

should

seek what you are born for. Do you know why inevitably you die for?

Everybody is born and everyone is reaching a point called death. You

are

born to seek absolute bliss, immortality, total knowledge (as per

BRUhadAraNyaka)

 

Question from seeker: please tell me what is Turiya avastha and what

is

Turiaateeta

 

Madhava continues: Both are states called after Sushupti. An ordinary

soul

of human can travel only till Shusupti (deep sleep) and comes back from

there. These three states are common for every being. But then slowly

as

and when the sadhana gets progressed seekers can induce these three

(wake,

sleep, deep sleep) states through meditation... And then they experience

a

fourth state called Turiya. In deep sleep you are not aware of the

enjoyment

(bliss). You get to know that you had that enjoyment only after waking

up

--- isn't it? So think of this as a state where you *are* aware of

your

bliss... Meditation is a sleepless sleep . You don't actually sleep...

but

you undergo all that experiences. Then you enjoy the bliss with

awareness

called Turiya... Enjoyment without awareness is called Sushupti

(deep-sleep).

And that awareness also goes and you become *that* which is making you

to be

aware... That is called "Turiya+atita" (beyond turiya). From awareness

you

travel in to the unawareness to reach the Total awareness that is

meditation

..

 

Question from seeker: If the Deep-sleep state is the goal (the

absolute

state) then how come Soul returns back to this world after having

experienced

it?

 

Mahhava contiues: No the Deep-sleep state is not the absolute. It is

only

a temporary state. Let me quote BRuhadaaranyaka upanishad here: In

that

the Rishi says "Like a Bird which flies throughout the world in search

of the

food during the morning time and by the evening the bird tries to reach

its

nest, withdraws its wings, and lies down in its own nest and takes rest

----

same way the soul which travels in the world, with the wings called five

 

sense organs and five motor organs...pulls back when it gets tired and

goes

deep into his nest called souls' resting place, and stays there...

enjoying

in the shade of the Bliss absolute. But it is just like enjoying the

moon

light. All souls during their deepsleep state --- get to experience

what it

is like *there* which is called bliss. For example, you see a star in

the

night sky. Does it mean it is so small? Does it mean it is cool? Does

it

mean it is so tiny in its size?

Same way, when you experience the bliss in your deepsleep state....it is

just

like a star being experienced by you , yonder. The Parabrahman - the

supreme

state is called Absolute Bliss - but then we see it like we see a star

in the

night. How much importance do we give to the stars in the sky? Only

a few

chosen ones give importance. Same is the case with humans. They don't

much

care about the happiness/bliss which they perceive during that state,

yet

when they come out they forget it... HOWEVER, due to some reason if they

 

can't sleep.... they go crazy and take pills to induce it.

 

Question from seeker: Why we cannot remember that state?

 

Madhava continues: Due to the *bond* which you developed with the

perceived universe. Imagine you have nobody in this world... You don't

have

to eat, drink --- do nothing.. then what will you do! You will do

nothing... since you don't have to do anything.. You just sit and relax

isn't

it? Since there is nothing --- absolutely nothing for you to take care

---

you go into that state and you enjoy it without getting pulled down.

Just

like gravitational force - samsara (the world) pulls you down with your

responsibilities - but then as you travel far from earth, you are no

more

undergoing the pull of gravity, same is the case with your sadhana.

Get

detachment and then you can keep experiencing the bliss. That you can

do

through meditation. Intelligent detachment with world is absolutely

essential in order to cruise in to the spiritual space. So the realized

ones

are in that state always. Let me quote EasOpanishad explaining what the

 

detached soul does .

 

tatra kO mOhaH kaH SOkaH Ekatva manupaSyataH? 7

 

sa paryagAt sukaM akAyaM avraNaM

asnA viragaM SuddhaM apApa viddhaM

kavir maneeshee paribhooH svayaMbhoo

yAdhA tatyadhO vyadadAt SASvateebhyaH SaMAbhyaH 8

 

When to a man who understands, the Self has become all things, what

sorrow,

what trouble can there be to him who once beheld that unity?

 

after the realization... being in that state absolute

 

He (the Self) encircled all, bright, incorporeal, scatheless, without

muscles,

pure, untouched by evil ; a seer, wise, omnipresent, self-existent, he

disposed

all things rightly for eternal years.

 

 

Question from seeker: For one who is a Radha-Krishna bhakta, this may

not be

too palatable. Do they believe the same ?

 

Madhava continues: Krishna is such a perfect soul... He is the Kavi

(sang

the great text Bhagawad Gita). He is the Manishi (gave the perfect plan

to

Pandavas). He is the controller of time... and he is the time (I am

time -

Bh.Gita 11th chapter). So when such master is capable of doing things

in his

way, there is nothing wrong in absolute surrenderance to such one

divine being. Remember, all our great souls, avataras , they all stand

for

time, and they stand as an example of what Upanishads say!

 

Question from seeker: And why are there some realized souls who do not

want

to be called 'masters' ?

 

Madhava continues: Because that causes any minute ego - if it were

existent

to rise and they don't want to give rise to it. Like a small drop of

rain

water can help sprout a seed which is being dried for years on the top

of a

banyan tree, a realized soul may also have a miniscule part of ego which

is

still there still ready to sprout! Also, such a thing will not set a

right

example of good behavior to the beginners of that path.

They may compare and get feared and may stop trying.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, nanda chandran wrote:

> Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do you

> reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and enlightenment

> - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these states?

>

 

namaste.

 

Aren't there only three states (waking, dream and deep-sleep) with the

turIyA present as a witness in all the three ?

 

I am not too sure what is meant by reconciling; the jIvA goes through

these three states and knows that it is going through the three states

by the constant witness, the Consciousness.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

>

> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, nanda chandran wrote:

>

> > Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do you

> > reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and enlightenment

> > - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these states?

> >

>

> namaste.

>

> Aren't there only three states (waking, dream and deep-sleep) with the

> turIyA present as a witness in all the three ?

>

> I am not too sure what is meant by reconciling; the jIvA goes through

> these three states and knows that it is going through the three states

> by the constant witness, the Consciousness.

 

 

hariH OM! murthyji, nandaji-

 

i don't disagree with this observation; but the turiya

is also considered the 'fourth state.' and then we have

the turiyatika, which is god knows what? :-) (actually

the latter term is postulated the same as the subtle

difference between brahman and parabrahman.)

 

not to sound cynical, but these kinds of observations:

phases of the mind with the sakshi [as atman] watching

them from the impersonal, silent 'hill' of the turiya,

are merely semantical terms that boil down to being the

relative Mind's attempts at organizing the Ineffable

(being brahman not only in Its absolute condition, but

also in Its relative condition!).

 

and it's this relative condition that we tend to think

or believe we can formulate an organized system of

understanding around or about. yet we find, that the

more we seem to succeed in doing so, the Mind pokes

new holes in what we believed was a working philosophy.

 

what i'm trying to say here is, that deriving such ways of

observing the matrix of our consciousness in manifestation,

are really only methods for appeasing the obsessive Mind

in its thirst to know and commandeer our awareness.

we have to be able to recognize the inherent limitations

in all these [what amounts to being *tentative*] systems

of understanding. we have to remember, as dennis recently

pointed out, these relative philosophies are at best only

fingers pointing to the moon, and aren't needed--in fact

become treacherous obstacles!--once the moon itself is

beheld in the awareness.

 

namaste,

frank

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Hopefully, these quotations and references will prove

adequate; if they are not, one will have to have the grace of a

personal Guru to remove any doubts:

 

Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:[1972, 5th ed. Ramanashrma;

 

p. 213: " There is no ned to discuss similar points. Jivanmukti and

Videhamukti are differently described by different

authorities;Videhamukti is sometimes sid to occur even when the man

is seen with a body. The fact is that 'mukti' is another name

for 'aham'.['I'].

 

p. 319 8th Feb. 1937]-

"There are are three states only, the waking, drem, and sleep. Turiya

is not a fourth one.; it is what underlies thesethree. But people do

not readily understand it. ....itis the only Truth; it is your very

Being. The three states appear as fleeting phenomena onit and then

sink into it alone. Therefore they are unreal......Turiyaa is only

another name for the Self. ...So long as identification with the body

lasts the world seems to lie outside us. Only realise the Self, and

they are not."

 

Yoga Vasishtha Sangraha: 1st ed. 1982, p. 318-319; Samata Books]

 

.....

turyaatiitaa tu yaa avasthaa paraa nirvaaNa-ruupiNii .. 23..

saptamii saa pariprauDhaa vishhayaH syaat na jiivataam.h . ....

 

....But such a state beyond the Turya is the highest and is of the

nature of Nirvana [or final libearation from relative existence and

absorption in the Supreme Spirit]. The fully matured seventh state

cannot be the subject of the living.[i.s. it is liberation without

the body].

 

 

"asa.nvedanaaruupa atha shhashhThii turyapada abhidhaa .

turyatiitapadaavastha saptamii bhuumikottamaa .. 26..

manovachobhiH agraahyaa sav-prakaasha-padaatmikaa ."

 

"Likewise the sixth is denoted by the word Turya which is of the

nature of abence of 'knowing' [or experiencing]. The state

constituting the step beyond the Turya is the highaest and seventh

stage which cannot be grasped [or apprehended]by the mind and words

and which is of the nature of the abode of self-lustre."

 

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote:

>

> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, nanda chandran wrote:

>

> > Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do

you

> > reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

enlightenment

> > - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these

states?

> >

>

> namaste.

>

> Aren't there only three states (waking, dream and deep-sleep) with

the

> turIyA present as a witness in all the three ?

>

> I am not too sure what is meant by reconciling; the jIvA goes

through

> these three states and knows that it is going through the three

states

> by the constant witness, the Consciousness.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> --

----

[Guest guest]

sunder hattangadi wrote:

>

> Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:[1972, 5th ed. Ramanashrma;

>

> p. 319 8th Feb. 1937]-

> "There are are three states only, the waking, drem, and sleep. Turiya

> is not a fourth one.; it is what underlies thesethree. But people do

> not readily understand it. ....itis the only Truth; it is your very

> Being. The three states appear as fleeting phenomena onit and then

> sink into it alone. Therefore they are unreal......Turiyaa is only

> another name for the Self. ...So long as identification with the body

> lasts the world seems to lie outside us. Only realise the Self, and

> they are not."

 

hariH OM! sundarji-

 

of course i agree with jagadguru ramana; however, the literal

translation of turiya is 'the fourth,' and hence the *popular

idea* is that it is 'the fourth state.' yet, as ramana typically

adroitly points out, turiya is not another state of mind, but

*underlies* the three states of mind.

 

> Yoga Vasishtha Sangraha: 1st ed. 1982, p. 318-319; Samata Books]

>

> ....

> turyaatiitaa tu yaa avasthaa paraa nirvaaNa-ruupiNii .. 23..

> saptamii saa pariprauDhaa vishhayaH syaat na jiivataam.h . ....

>

> ...But such a state beyond the Turya is the highest and is of the

> nature of Nirvana [or final libearation from relative existence and

> absorption in the Supreme Spirit]. The fully matured seventh state

> cannot be the subject of the living.[i.s. it is liberation without

> the body].

 

[my respect for the yoga vasishtha notwithstanding...]

i cannot agree with [what amounts to being] the implied simplicity

of this statement. to my understanding it is misleading...because

who or what reaches final liberation? the jivatman, being thus the

jivanmuktha or jnani? this implies--and not subtly--that there

remains a separative consciousness unique to what we call the jnani.

this is, by definition, a blatant contradiction. (unless we apply

the highest 'pointer' in ajatavada, all of this surely collapses,

and we're left with the ineffable pure existential brahman, of which

there are no questions of jnanis or ajnanis, liberation or bondage.)

 

however, if we attempt to apply the conception that there is a jiva

in existence who eventually achieves videhamukthi, who thus never

'returns' to relative existence in samsara, implies--and again not

so subtly--that such a 'one' is beyond brahman Itself! how so?

because brahman Itself, in this scheme of thinking (philosophical

system), has the permanent inherent/latent nature of mayashakthi,

and will therefore eternally cyclically project Itself into

manifestation, as per the days and nights of brahma.

 

so what i'm saying is, is that it is impossible to state that there

is an entity in existence who, upon Self-realization, never returns.

if it were true, such an entity would have to exist as real *apart

and distinct* from brahman!

 

this shouldn't cause a philosophical crisis, simply because the

very nature of philosophy itself--as i've been trying to say--is

merely a means to an end. this is precisely why it's best to

settle on the final launchpad of ajatavada, where all speculative

philosophical ideas and questions resolve into--for lack of better

words--inscrutable silence in the Mind and peace in the Heart...

'the peace that passeth understanding.'

 

namaste,

frank

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Chandogya Upanishad: II:xiv:1

 

sarva.n khalu idaM brahma tajjalaan iti shaanta upaasiita .

 

"Verily, all this universe is Brahman. From Him do all things

originate, into Him do they dissolve, and by Him are they sustained.

On Him should one meditate in tranquillity."

 

atha khalu kratumayaH purushhaH yathaa-kratuH asmin loke purushhaH

bhavati tathetaH pretya bhavati sa kratu.n kurviita .

 

"For as is one's faith, such indeed one is; and as is one's faith in

this world, such one becomes on departing hence. Letone, therefore,

cultivate faith."

 

[tr. Sw. Swahananda;

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , f maiello <egodust@d...> wrote:

>

> this shouldn't cause a philosophical crisis, simply because the

> very nature of philosophy itself--as i've been trying to say--is

> merely a means to an end. this is precisely why it's best to

> settle on the final launchpad of ajatavada, where all speculative

> philosophical ideas and questions resolve into--for lack of better

> words--inscrutable silence in the Mind and peace in the Heart...

> 'the peace that passeth understanding.'

>

> namaste,

> frank

[Guest guest]

CORRECTION:

 

It should be Chandogya III [NOT II]:xiv:1 - Sorry!

 

s.

 

 

 

advaitin , "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> Chandogya Upanishad: II:xiv:1

>

> sarva.n khalu idaM brahma tajjalaan iti shaanta upaasiita .

>

> "Verily, all this universe is Brahman. From Him do all things

> originate, into Him do they dissolve, and by Him are they

sustained.

> On Him should one meditate in tranquillity."

>

> atha khalu kratumayaH purushhaH yathaa-kratuH asmin loke purushhaH

> bhavati tathetaH pretya bhavati sa kratu.n kurviita .

>

> "For as is one's faith, such indeed one is; and as is one's faith

in

> this world, such one becomes on departing hence. Letone, therefore,

> cultivate faith."

>

> [tr. Sw. Swahananda;

>

> Regards,

>

> s.

>

>

> advaitin , f maiello <egodust@d...> wrote:

> >

> > this shouldn't cause a philosophical crisis, simply because the

> > very nature of philosophy itself--as i've been trying to say--is

> > merely a means to an end. this is precisely why it's best to

> > settle on the final launchpad of ajatavada, where all speculative

> > philosophical ideas and questions resolve into--for lack of

better

> > words--inscrutable silence in the Mind and peace in the Heart...

> > 'the peace that passeth understanding.'

> >

> > namaste,

> > frank

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote:

> advaitin , "nanda chandran" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> > Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do

you

> > reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

enlightenment

> > - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these

states?

>

> The Atman does nothing except provide the light of awareness whereby

> all these things are experienced.

 

I think the Atman does something to manifest the three. What It does

is not perceivable by its creation.

 

Or maybe it is by the greatest Seers & Rishis who wrote & cognised

the Veda.

 

Peace,

 

Colette

[Guest guest]

advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote:

> > advaitin , "nanda chandran" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> > > Here's a question I raise to all the readers on the list : How do

> > > you reconcile the four states - waking, dreaming, deep sleep and

> > > enlightenment

> > > - with the Atman? What does the Atman do/doesn't do, in these

> > > states?

> >

> > The Atman does nothing except provide the light of awareness

> > whereby all these things are experienced.

>

> I think the Atman does something to manifest the three. What It does

> is not perceivable by its creation.

 

An Atman that does something is not the Atman of Advaita Vedanta.

As Frankji pointed out previously, turiya is a condition that underlies

all states. Similarly, Atman is the consciousness that underlies

all experience. It does not generate experiences of Its own, that is,

it doesn't "do" anything on Its own, but It does provide the "light"

whereby all that is experienced is witnessed.

> Or maybe it is by the greatest Seers & Rishis who wrote & cognised

> the Veda.

 

I believe the general idea about the origin of the Vedas is that

they have been *revealed* to the Rishis. The Vedas are eternal,

and therefore not cognised.

> Peace,

>

> Colette

 

--jody.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote:

 

Col:

> > Or maybe it is by the greatest Seers & Rishis who wrote &

cognised

> > the Veda.

 

Jody:

>

> I believe the general idea about the origin of the Vedas is that

> they have been *revealed* to the Rishis. The Vedas are eternal,

> and therefore not cognised.

 

Revelation is cognised otherwise there is no form for its expression.

 

 

Peace,

 

Colette

[Guest guest]

advaitin , colette@b... wrote:

> advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote:

>

> Col:

>

> > > Or maybe it is by the greatest Seers & Rishis who wrote &

> cognised

> > > the Veda.

>

> Jody:

>

> >

> > I believe the general idea about the origin of the Vedas is that

> > they have been *revealed* to the Rishis. The Vedas are eternal,

> > and therefore not cognised.

>

> Revelation is cognised otherwise there is no form for its expression.

 

And I take that to be the revealed truth in this case, thank you.

> Peace,

>

> Colette

 

--jody.

[Guest guest]

>

> jody [jodyrrr]

>

> An Atman that does something is not the Atman of Advaita Vedanta.

> As Frankji pointed out previously, turiya is a condition that

> underlies

> all states.

 

If I may add a bit more to it: Turiya is a state where you and your

awareness are still existent. States are always only three, speaking in

terms of human cognition. Only three states are recognized. But the fourth

state is a *present* awareness, it is still the deep sleep where you undergo

the bliss with out Knowledge. Actually that is the reason Sri Adishankara

called the soul which is undergoing the deep sleep as "prAjna" - prakarshENa

ajnAnaM, prAyENa jnAnaM - He has *no* knowledge of his experience at all

--- at that time, but then he will remember that he underwent after he came

out of that state!

 

Imagine where you go to deep sleep, but you are present "prAyENa jnAnaM" -

then can't that be classified as "Turiya"?

 

But then still there is this "Seer" + "Seen" --- The Seer is

seeing/experiencing the absolute bliss. Then as a final step he undergoes a

change which is completely out for the logical thinking (personally I don't

know how to explain it!) where he becomes that!

 

 

Om tat sat.

 

Yours,

Madhava

[Guest guest]

Harih Aum Madhavaji:

 

Your final logical conclusion illustrates our limitation.

The notions, 'stateless,' 'desireless,' 'actionless,' 'bliss,' can be

experienced but not explained. But we always determine to explain

using conceptual frameworks of our choice. But such frameworks and our

explanations become contradictions to others. Ironically, our

frameworks and explanations are not always permanant. They change over

time and consequently they become acceptable at one time and

unacceptable at other time. As long as we observe the reality at the

relative level, contradictions and puzzles become inevitable. The on

going discussions confirm that why it is (easy!) difficult for some to

accept 'statelessness' as a state!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

wrote:

>........

> Then as a final step he undergoes a

> change which is completely out for the logical thinking

> (personally I don't

> know how to explain it!) where he becomes that!

>

>

> Om tat sat.

>

> Yours,

> Madhava

[Guest guest]

Pranams to the Discussants and Readers,

 

Namaste,

 

When we start to climb a mountain, or cross the ocean for the

first time, we have a choice of:

 

1. Starting all by ourselves, with total faith & self-cofidence, like

Shri Ramana

 

2. Take any map at hand [like Columbus!] ie shaastra-s

 

3. Take a map prepared by people who have journeyed there, ie

shruti shruti-pramaaNa

 

 

4. Take a guide who has made the journey ie a Guru -guru-pramaaNa,

like Hillary and Tenzing;

 

 

5. Confirm the destination for oneself, ie svataH-pramaaNa

 

One cannot imagine what the view is like before completing the

journey oneself!

 

Here are some more quotations from Sri Ramana:

 

[Day by Day with Bhagavan, by Devaraja Mudaliar;Ramanashram, 1968;

 

p.100:

 

...."as a matter of fact, our real state is what is sometimes called

turiya or the fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing

of the three avasthas, viz. waking, dream, or sleep. Because we call

these three avasthas we call the fourth state alsoturiya avastha. But

it is not an avastha, but the real and natural state of the Self.

When this is realised, we know it is not a turiya or fourth state,

for a fourth state is only relative, but turiyatita, the transcendent

state called the fourth state."

 

p.113-114:

 

"There is only one state, that of consciousness or awareness or

existence. The three states of waking, dream and sleep cannot be

real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist. The 'I' or

existence that alone persists in all the three states is real. The

other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have

such and such a degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this.

Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus

waking, wecall waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep.

Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the screen

on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the

pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit we have been

regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere

awareness or consciousness as the fourth. There is however no fourth

state, but only one state. In this connection Bhagavan quoted verse

386 from a Tamil work by Thayumanavar and said this so-called fourth

state is described as waking sleep or sleep in waking--meaning asleep

to the world and awake in the Self."

 

[Letters from Ramanashrama: by Suri Nagamma, tr. D.S.Shastri;

Ramanashrama, 1973.

 

p. 269-270:

 

"One who accustoms himself naturally to meditation [dhyana] and

enjoys the bliss of of meditation, will not lose his samadhi state

whatever external work he does,whatever thought may come to him. That

is called 'sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi'. It is these two states that

are called complete destruction [nasa] and suppression [laya]; nasa

is sahaja nirvikalpam and laya is kevala nirvikalpam. Those who are

in the laya [suppressed] samadhi state will have to bring the mind

back under control from time to time. If the mind is destroyed, it

will not sprout again; the mind will then be something like a fried

seed. Whatever is done by such people is just incidental; they will

not slide down from their high state. Those that are in the kevala

nirvikalpa samadhi state are not siddhas; they are mere sadhakas.

Those who are in the sahja nirvikalpa state are like a light in a

windless place, or the ocean without waves; that is there is no

movement. They cannot find anything which is different from

themselves. For those who do not reach that state, everything appears

to be different from themselves....

 

....."There is no such thing as the Fourth State. Self itself is the

Fourth State.....

 

...."What there is, is one state only; you may call it turiya or

turiyatita or what you like. The wakeful state [jagrat], the dream

state [swapna] and the state of deep sleep [sushupti]-

these three states go on changing like the scenes in a cinema. All

the three are ideas of the mind. That which is beyond these three,

and which is real and permanent, is the Self itself. That is the

state called the Fourth, the turiya, state. In common parlance,

people talk of the Fourth state and of Beyond the Fourth State, and

so on, but strictly speaking, there is only one state."

 

Here are some more references to shruti:

 

References to turiiyaatiita :

 

tripaadvibhuuti mahaa naaraayaNa

7:12 turiiyasvruupa.n turiiyaatiita.n cha...

 

tejobinduu 3:41 turiiyaatiitaruupo.aham.....

4:49 turiiyaatiitaruupaatmaa

 

muktikaa 1:36 turiiyaatiita....

 

naarada parivraajaka7:6, 9, 10, 11 turiiyaatiitasya....

 

turiiyaatiita 3 turiiyaatiita avadhuutaanaam

 

ha.nsa 2 tadaa turyaatiitam unmanam

 

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

wrote:

Then as a final step he undergoes a

> change which is completely out for the logical thinking (personally

I don't

> know how to explain it!) where he becomes that!

>

>

> Om tat sat.

>

> Yours,

> Madhava

 

 

 

advaitin , "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Harih Aum Madhavaji:

>

The on

> going discussions confirm that why it is (easy!) difficult for some

to

> accept 'statelessness' as a state!

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

> wrote:

>

> >........

> > Then as a final step he undergoes a

> > change which is completely out for the logical thinking

> > (personally I don't

> > know how to explain it!) where he becomes that!

> >

> >

> > Om tat sat.

> >

> > Yours,

> > Madhava

[Guest guest]

Namaste!I feel it is appropriate to mention that Lord sri Krishna refers to nine

other awasthas (States),besides the three daily states :

 

Nisheka, Garbha, Janmaani, Baalya,Kaumara,Yavvanam

 

 

Vayomadhyam,jara ,mrityu ityavastha tanuhrnavah

Conception stage,embryo stage,childhood,boy(girl) hood,youth,

 

middleage,old age and the end are the nine states of the body.

 

Etaah,manoradhmayidhiyah,uchha vachastanuh

 

Gunasangaad upaadatte,kachid kachid jayaateah

 

These nine states are only due to mind concocted maaya and are experienced

because of invovement in gunaas and can be overcome by some.

 

 

sunder hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

As you state correctly these are avasthas of the body - jaDa

prakR^iti; and not of consciousness; one can term them a sub-set

manifested in the waking state.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

advaitin , BTA SAGAR <btasagar> wrote:

>

> Namaste!I feel it is appropriate to mention that Lord sri Krishna

refers to nine other awasthas (States),besides the three daily

states :

>

> middleage,old age and the end are the nine states of the body.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste.Thanks for the clarificaion.The most interesting and important point is

that these nine states are also imaginary states,which some illumined saints

have overcome and attained immortality.

 

Regards

 

Sagar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

As pointed out by every illumined individual, the only

requirement for this achievement is TOTAL effacement of the personal

EGO.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , BTA SAGAR <btasagar> wrote:

>

> Namaste.Thanks for the clarificaion.The most interesting and

important point is that these nine states are also imaginary

states,which some illumined saints have overcome and attained

immortality.

>

> Regards

>

> Sagar

>

>

 

>

> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

>

>