Guest guest Posted December 22, 2000 Report Share Posted December 22, 2000 advaitin , "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...> wrote: > Namaste, > > As pointed out by every illumined individual, the only > requirement for this achievement is TOTAL effacement of the > personal EGO. > > Regards, > > s. ef·face [i fáyss ] (past ef·faced, past participle ef·faced, present participle ef·fac·ing, 3rd person present singular ef·fac·es) verb 1. transitive verb rub out: to remove or obliterate something by or as if by wearing away or rubbing out 2. behave humbly: to act in an inconspicuous manner, especially because of shyness or modesty So then the question becomes, definition no. 1 or no. 2? It is most common to regard no. 1 as the definition of what must be done in order to be blessed with realization. Therefore, many of us have gone on or are currently on quests where we seek the total dissolution of our personalities, as we commonly mistake this sense of individual self with the ego. Point: Personality and ego are two different things. Personality is our individual sense of self, the legacy of a lifetime lived in the relative universe. Ego is merely the attachment to this sense of self. That is, ego is the glue that binds us (as our individual sense of self) to the personality. If you look at the lives of the saints, while they may behave in the manner of definition no. 2, there are exceptions. Swami Vivekananda swings into mind as one of these. When one surveys his life, one comes away with the clear impression that he was not what one would call a humble man. If we continue to examine the lives of the saints, we can see that they all had very conspicuous personalities. That is, they were still very much individuals. They had tastes and preferences, peculular habits, etc. In this regard Ramakrishna swings into mind, but he is certainly not the exception here. Conclusion: To efface the ego does not mean the obliteration of the personality. It simply means the obliteration of the permanent attachment to the personality as the whole identity of the individual. When one is blessed with realization, as all the saints demonstrate, personality remains, albeit transformed by the fact that it is removed from the throne of identity, replaced by the true holder of that position, the Atman. --jodyr. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote: > advaitin , "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...> wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > As pointed out by every illumined individual, the only > > requirement for this achievement is TOTAL effacement of the > > personal EGO. > > > > Regards, > > > > s. > > ef·face [i fáyss ] (past ef·faced, past > participle ef·faced, present participle > ef·fac·ing, 3rd person present singular > ef·fac·es) verb > > 1. transitive verb rub out: to remove or > obliterate something by or as if by wearing > away or rubbing out > > 2. behave humbly: to act in an > inconspicuous manner, especially > because of shyness or modesty > > So then the question becomes, definition no. 1 or no. 2? > > It is most common to regard no. 1 as the definition of what > must be done in order to be blessed with realization. > Therefore, many of us have gone on or are currently on quests > where we seek the total dissolution of our personalities, as > we commonly mistake this sense of individual self with the ego. > > Point: Personality and ego are two different things. Personality > is our individual sense of self, the legacy of a lifetime lived > in the relative universe. Ego is merely the attachment to this > sense of self. That is, ego is the glue that binds us (as our > individual sense of self) to the personality. > > If you look at the lives of the saints, while they may behave in > the manner of definition no. 2, there are exceptions. Swami > Vivekananda swings into mind as one of these. When one surveys > his life, one comes away with the clear impression that he was not > what one would call a humble man. > > If we continue to examine the lives of the saints, we can see that > they all had very conspicuous personalities. That is, they were > still very much individuals. They had tastes and preferences, > peculular habits, etc. In this regard Ramakrishna swings into > mind, but he is certainly not the exception here. > > Conclusion: To efface the ego does not mean the obliteration > of the personality. It simply means the obliteration of the > permanent attachment to the personality as the whole identity > of the individual. When one is blessed with realization, as > all the saints demonstrate, personality remains, albeit > transformed by the fact that it is removed from the throne of > identity, replaced by the true holder of that position, the Atman. > > --jodyr. namaste - That which is termed ego or the identification with body mind and form is that which is transcended... that is what is dropped... when realization is reached... when resting within Brahman the residule karma plays out.... and that which you term personality does not change... but the differance is that to the ONE within realization... it is as being on the floor of the ocean of bliss... resting within Anand... and the mind is ever in the state of Nirvalkalpa (no active thoughts).. within That you can see the waves at the top... the waves are the on-going personality... but you are not concerned with it... just as the bottom of the ocean is not touched by the waves and commotion on the surface.... You are no longer in the division of personality for you that ends... you are aware only of the Constant Formless of Brahman..... Now as to the state of Turiya ... yes you are aware of Being within Pure Awareness... but within the moment of Realization there is no such awareness... you are beyond even that termed Turiya... for there is no subject nor object what-so-ever... there is only Pristine Awareness of THAT WHICH IS or BRAHMAN.... from there you drop back into Turiya States but ever conscious of Brahman as Reality Alone... and rest within Nirvakalpa and Anand..... Hope this helps to answer those questions.... Love and Blessings for more info or writings you may visit at www.god-realized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 advaitin , "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: [snip] > namaste - > That which is termed ego or the identification with body mind and > form is that which is transcended... that is what is dropped... when > realization is reached... when resting within Brahman the residule > karma plays out.... and that which you term personality does not > change... but the differance is that to the ONE within realization... > it is as being on the floor of the ocean of bliss... resting within > Anand... and the mind is ever in the state of Nirvalkalpa (no active > thoughts).. within That you can see the waves at the top... the waves > are the on-going personality... but you are not concerned with it... > just as the bottom of the ocean is not touched by the waves and > commotion on the surface.... You are no longer in the division of > personality for you that ends... you are aware only of the Constant > Formless of Brahman..... > Now as to the state of Turiya ... yes you are aware of Being within > Pure Awareness... but within the moment of Realization there is no > such awareness... you are beyond even that termed Turiya... for there > is no subject nor object what-so-ever... there is only Pristine > Awareness of THAT WHICH IS or BRAHMAN.... from there you drop back > into Turiya States but ever conscious of Brahman as Reality Alone... > and rest within Nirvakalpa and Anand..... If this were the case, then the great sages Ramana Maharshi and Vivekananda were on autopilot. How can a person, realized or otherwise, give instruction to his devotees if he is in nirvakalpa? In nirvakalpa there is no eating or speaking. A person in a sustained nirvakalpa samadhi would die unless he had devotees force feeding him. It sounds to me that you have developed unrealistic expectations as to what the blessing of Self realization entails. As long as a mind exists, there is a "person" involved in it. This "person" may understand that his "personhood" is illusory, but that "person" is still active in his "personhood". If not, then none of the sages would have been able to give any instruction. --jodyr. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 Namaste - Nirvakalpa is when mind and active thought is silent... When an answer is needed it comes from the silence it is just there appearing in the consciousness... that is all... Nirvakalpa is not a state of non-movement nor one of being unaware.... it is the ever constant state of meditation... silent mind... no rational thought processes... relative mind at an end... Since you have not experienced it you do not know... you can only "KNOW" once you rest there... there was no mention of samadhi... only of being within Nirvakalpa... There are no illusions on this end... they ended shattered in that moment beyond time... I AM the eternal emptiness of Being: One without a second.... The Life of All Life The Death of All Death. The unborn ever Effulgent One... Being beyond Eternal That Which Is and Is not; for past, present, and future have no meaning within the Emptiness of Now.. For only Now exists in the void of Permanance... Yet how can permanance be stated when impermanance does not exist... Note: Do not think by reading these words that you will understand "That" which "Is" for all words and concepts are born of the world of duality... Truth of Being is beyond mind, and duality, and division... therefore unexpressable within the confines of limiting language and ideations..... Finally the Self Appears No more entertaining the mind of thoughts. Nor dreaming the dream of death.. For finally the Self appears! the non-self is no more; vanishing as dew upon a hot day. And when the ego self is slain in that moment beyond time... what is there that remains? Consciousness walking in Bliss.... Awakened to the Truth of Emptiness.. The Formless Constant Beyond Aspects... and Maya becomes the playground of dream... The transient thought created realm of self imposed limitations of experience... And All exists in Bliss!! Love and Blessings _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote: > advaitin , "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> > wrote: > > [snip] > > > namaste - > > That which is termed ego or the identification with body mind and > > form is that which is transcended... that is what is dropped... when > > realization is reached... when resting within Brahman the residule > > karma plays out.... and that which you term personality does not > > change... but the differance is that to the ONE within realization... > > it is as being on the floor of the ocean of bliss... resting within > > Anand... and the mind is ever in the state of Nirvalkalpa (no active > > thoughts).. within That you can see the waves at the top... the waves > > are the on-going personality... but you are not concerned with it... > > just as the bottom of the ocean is not touched by the waves and > > commotion on the surface.... You are no longer in the division of > > personality for you that ends... you are aware only of the Constant > > Formless of Brahman..... > > Now as to the state of Turiya ... yes you are aware of Being within > > Pure Awareness... but within the moment of Realization there is no > > such awareness... you are beyond even that termed Turiya... for there > > is no subject nor object what-so-ever... there is only Pristine > > Awareness of THAT WHICH IS or BRAHMAN.... from there you drop back > > into Turiya States but ever conscious of Brahman as Reality Alone... > > and rest within Nirvakalpa and Anand..... > > If this were the case, then the great sages Ramana Maharshi and > Vivekananda were on autopilot. How can a person, realized or > otherwise, give instruction to his devotees if he is in nirvakalpa? > In nirvakalpa there is no eating or speaking. A person in a sustained > nirvakalpa samadhi would die unless he had devotees force feeding him. > > It sounds to me that you have developed unrealistic expectations > as to what the blessing of Self realization entails. As long as > a mind exists, there is a "person" involved in it. This "person" > may understand that his "personhood" is illusory, but that "person" > is still active in his "personhood". If not, then none of the sages > would have been able to give any instruction. > > --jodyr. > Nirvakalpa is the silent stilled mind... no relative thoughts... absolute quiet... you can be within Nirvalkalpa and be aware... within it is absolute Pure Awareness beyond divisionary thoughts... what is being spoken of is not an illusion of mind... it is not where you are in a stupor. There is absolute awareness... but the end of transient thought.... > [ V:Being aware of the source(and the three states) is Turya. Turya is still a duality(dvaita)- ShudhaGyan(pure knowledge-does'nt quite translate it) is not dual. ShudhaGyan is where there is no witness-witnessed - but only you the source. -Dasbodha 5.6.10(by Samartha Ramdas 1560AD) Jai Jai Raghuveer Samartha Vijay G:Yes within that moment of realization there is no witness nor witnessed - there is no personality but simply absolute Pristine Awareness Which Is Brahman... At that point is source alone... then you rest within the state of Turiya where there is awareness of Brahman as Absolute but also you are aware of the maya's realms of illusion.... but do not think that is is duality... for you KNOW ABSOLUTELY the emptiness of illusion... the transitory for what it is only a reflective state so to speak of the ever present Brahman ... from there the duality has ended... your physical eyes see the illusion... but within the silence and anand you are beyond any seeming duality.... You are conscious of only Brahman.... Love and Blessings Note: all that is spoken on this end is from "direct experience" it is not from intellectual debates or hearsay from books... you can get lost in the terms of intellectual debate... go beyond the words to where they point.... the words only cause maya realms pre-conceived notions to arise... and you will ever be separated from THAT which is the end of all searching.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 Forgive me for addressing all, but I can't resist: Please try to meditate and be very honest in your spiritual persuits. Gita says a person who approaches with mere curiosity will transcend the sabdabrahman. No matter what you study and what you express, as long as you do not seriously start understanding and penetrating your inner being through meditations, you are nothing but a spectator of the star light... Try meditate, reach the shores of eternal bliss. It is there... It is true... You can witness it as you can witness the horizons and the deep blue sky. You can witness like an eagle flying high in the sky. You can witness like a baby from with in the womb... All the best. I remain yours, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 Namaste - That was well said... yes you may talk and discuss forever but it will not take you to realization of Brahman... it is only discovered by first contemplation which will take you to meditation (silence of mind).. when the silence is reached then Anand will rise of its own accord... from there then ALL must be surrendered... even the desire to reach... even life itself... that which you have termed yourself... the ego must be layed to rest.... and in that moment all illusions shatter.. and only That Which Is - Brahman remains... and it is "known" not by experience as you would term it... for experience denotes subject and object and relative knowledge... at that point there is no subject - nor object- it is not percieved with the 5 senses... but within that Pristine Awareness Brahman is clearly more evident than that which you percieve with the 5 senses... The doubts are ended... the path is ended... the conviction ends... for to have conviction there must be doubt somewhere behind... and there is no doubt... That Which Remains when egos illusion dies is only Brahman... Love and Blessings _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 advaitin , "jody " <jodyrrr@h...> wrote: > advaitin , "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> > Namaste Jody - Here are some excerpts that you may wish to check out... this time it is from black and white not from my words alone.... here we go... Within the TRIPURA RAHASYA pg. 133 The Self is pure intelligence (what i term absoulute Pristine Awareness) and clear when not contaminated by thoughts; this state is called nirvikalpa.... next. TRIPURA RAHASYA pg 136-137 V71-75 Nirvikalpa signifies its unitary nature. "When the mind does not create pictures due to thoughts it is in the unmodified state which is its primal and pure condition... "When the pictures on the wall are erased, the original wall remains. No other work is necessary to restore its original condition. "Similarly, the mind remains pure when thoughts are eliminated. Therefore the unqualified state is restored if the present disturbance is ended... "There is indeed nothing more to be done for the most holy condition to be maintained... Nevertheless even pandits are deluded in this matter... owing to the nature of maya..... next lets move onto Turiya.... This is from the Principle Upanishads commentary by Swami Sivananda Pg # 256 Strictly speaking Turiya is not a state. Turiya or Brahman is an embodiement of peace and bliss... it is the substratum for the other three states, viz., waking, dreaming and deep sleep. It pervades the three states. It is Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absoulute, and Bliss Absoulute.. Turiya or Brahman cannot be grasped by the senses... Therefore it is transcendental. It is Svatasiddha, self proved... it is the basis for all proofs... It exists before the act of proving..... now once again i stand within what has been said... first gain the experience and rest therein and then you will "know" beyond a shadow of a doubt the Truth of Existance.... Is it better to endlessly debate that which you think may be true.... or is it better to "know" and then the debate ends... in "knowing" and "resting within Brahman" all that must be known is known.... and intellectual knowledge is realized to be a futile emptiness... its value is only to give you a starting point from which to begin.... but it is not an end.... Brahman may only be known by transcending pre-conceived notions... and by transcending the 5 senses... and last but not least dying to the ego self which you claim yourself to be..... Love and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2000 Report Share Posted December 25, 2000 Lord Sri Krishna saya: Tasmaad uddhavo srujya chodanam pratichodanam pravrittamcha nivrittamcha srotavyam sritameevacha Mamekam Eva saranam Atmaanam sarvadehinaam Yaahi sarvaatma bhavena Mayasyaukto Bhaya Uddhava,give up (this tendency of the mind to investigate by) logic and counter logic (Do not get lost in intellectual acrobatics).what is religion and what is not religion,what is heard and what is yet to be heard.Just surrender to Me (take shelter in Me-Place all your doubts and burdens on Me-Have complete Faith in Me).I (alone Am the Reality)am the One atma in all embodied beings and resting in Me,you will be rid of all fear! Happy Sankranti to all! Love, Ananda Sagar "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava wrote: Forgive me for addressing all, but I can't resist: Please try to meditate and be very honest in your spiritual persuits. Gita says a person who approaches with mere curiosity will transcend the sabdabrahman. No matter what you study and what you express, as long as you do not seriously start understanding and penetrating your inner being through meditations, you are nothing but a spectator of the star light... Try meditate, reach the shores of eternal bliss. It is there... It is true... You can witness it as you can witness the horizons and the deep blue sky. You can witness like an eagle flying high in the sky. You can witness like a baby from with in the womb... All the best. I remain yours, Madhava eGroups Sponsor Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ For Temporary stoppage of your Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-nomail > To resume normal delivery of Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-normal > To receive email digest (one per day) send a blank email to <advaitin-digest > To to advaitin list, send a blank email to <advaitin-> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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