Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 Dear Friends, Shri Ramachandran wanted me to take part actively in the list but I am very busy with my work and not able to spend as much time as I would like to. I am posting my reply to question on Samadhi I received off the list and hope it will be illuminating to the list memebers. with love and prayers, Jaishankar. Samadhi The word 'samadhi' comes from the root 'dha - dharanaposhanayo:' which means 'to support and to nourush'. The root 'dha' added with the prefixes 'sum' and 'aa' along with the suffix 'ti' becomes the word 'samadhi'. In Bhagavad Gita 2nd chapter verse 53, the word samadhi occurs. shrutivipratipanna te yada sthasyati nischalaa | samadhaavachalaabuddhi: tada yogam avaapsyasii || When your mind which is distracted by what you have heard (the Vedas which talk about different means and ends) is steady, it abides firmly in the self. Then you gain self knowledge. Here Sankara gives the meaning of the word samadhi as 'samyak aadhiiyate asmin iti samadhi atma'. That in which the mind resolves completely, which is the Self. So Sankara takes the meaning of the word samadhi as Atma - ones own self or Consciousness in which the mind resolves. Further Sankara gives the meaning of the Word Yoga in this verse as 'vivekaprajnam samadhim'. Here samadhi means knowledge born of dicrimination (viveka) which leads to the resolution of the mind in oneself. The knowledge 'aham nirvilkapa:' - 'I am the partless whole' is samadhi. In Yoga Sastra the word samadhi is defined as 'chitta vrtti nirodha:; - the cessation of mental modifications. The goal of astanga yoga or patanjali yoga is to attain nirvikalpa samadhi. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the angi or the end and the 8 angas to attain that end are yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi (savikalpa). By following these means one can attain savikalpa samadhi or absorption in a given object of meditation. When one's thoughts flow without any break, like the flow of oil, with respect to a particular object of meditation, then it is called savikalpa samadhi. Here the distinction of the knower and the known is still there. From here, one enters the state of nirvikalpa samadhi when the subject-object division disappears from one's awareness. Nirvikalpa samadi happens, for eg. like sleep. One can create favourable conditions for sleeping, but cannot bring sleep willfully. In fact, one does not go to sleep, sleep just comes, it just happens. Similarly one can only make effort for savikalpa samadhi and nirvikalpa samadhi just happens from there onwards. That is why in the shastra it is said that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the result of Poorva janma Punya and it burns away all bad karmas. It is a great accomplishment but it is not the ultimate goal of a Mumukshu. Now an advaitin is more interested in savikalpa samadhi than in nirvikalpa samadhi. Bhagavan says in the 6th Chapter of Gita... shanaishshanairuparamet budhyadhrutigruheetaya | atmasamstam manahkrtvaa nakinchidapi chintayet|| With an intellect endowed with Discrimination, may the mind abiding in oneself be resolved slowly slowly in One Self without thinking of anything else. One has to guide one's thoughts towards the real nature of the atma. If the mind wanders away then it has to be brought back. By practising this way one can keep the mind focused on the atmaswaroopa only. And nirvikalpa samadhi can happen when one practises like this. But that is not the goal of an advaitin. The advaitin gains the knowledge of his swarupa from the Vedas and his guru and in the wake of that knowledge the reality of the mind is negated. The individuality of the jiva along with the mind becomes mithyaa. Whether there is any thought in the mind or not it is Mithya. This is knowledge. Thinking is not a problem for an advaitin who knows that the mind and thoughts are mithya anyway. But for this knowledge to be clear and firm on needs to contemplate on this and keep one's mind focussed on this knowledge. That is why he is interested in savikalpa samadhi. The one who has the clear and firm knowledge that one's body-mind-sense complex is mithya and atma is satyam, that jnani, is in sahaja samadhi ( here samadhi means vivekaprajna or discriminatory knowledge). The mind in Nirvikalpa Samadhi is lightened ( no vrttis) but not enlightened! For enlightenment the akhandaakaara vritti has to be there which nothing but the knowledge 'I am Brahman'. Once this knowledge is firm then the jnani whether he is in waking, dreaming or sleeping or Nirvikalpa samadhi state knows that all these states are only mithya and atma is the satyam. While all these states depend on the atma for their very existense the atma does'nt depend on any of these states. (like the pot depends on the clay for its very existence but the clay is independent of the pot). The one who has this knowledge is in sahaja samadhi. om tat sat. Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 Namaste, Is' nt it Yoga which is defined as "Chittha Vritti Nirodaha " ? The Yogas shastras define many Samadhis which have "Bija" (seed) in it. They also define "Nirbija Samadhi" the ultimate state. Therefore what type of Samadhi do you say as "chitta vrtti nirodha" ? Anand > In Yoga Sastra the word samadhi is defined as > 'chitta vrtti nirodha:; - > the cessation of mental modifications. The goal > of astanga yoga or > patanjali yoga is to attain nirvikalpa samadhi. > Nirvikalpa samadhi is > the angi or the end and the 8 angas to attain that > end are yama, > niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, > dhyana and samadhi > (savikalpa). > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 namaste - my question is this... what is the goal of advaita vedanta.. is to to merely know about Brahman, or is it to know Brahman directly... the only way to know Brahman directly is within realization... and that only happens when subject and object have ended.... intellectually knowing that mind is only maya and absolutely "knowing" are two entirely different things... one only thinks that it knows and is once again being decieved by another illusion of truth.... so if you are only striving for the subject and object samadhi - what have you gained? only another minds game and illusion.... illusion only ends and is shattered when Brahman is "known" beyond the 5 senses... and that only happens when mind - thought is ended... and emotions are stilled... once that has taken place then you may rest in the sahaja state... it is effortless... But what does it afford to say that the samadhi state of subject and object is what advaitins mainly strive to attain? that is still within the state of Duality.... Love and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > my question is this... what is the goal of advaita vedanta.. is to to > merely know about Brahman, or is it to know Brahman directly... the > only way to know Brahman directly is within realization... and that > only happens when subject and object have ended.... Jai: The subject object division ends everyday while sleeping also. Does it mean anything? The end of subject-object duality is in terms of knowledge alone. This has to be clearly understood. Further "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > intellectually > knowing that mind is only maya and absolutely "knowing" are two > entirely different things... one only thinks that it knows and is > once again being decieved by another illusion of truth.... so if you > are only striving for the subject and object samadhi - what have you > gained? only another minds game and illusion.... illusion only ends > and is shattered when Brahman is "known" beyond the 5 senses... and > that only happens when mind - thought is ended... and emotions are > stilled... once that has taken place then you may rest in the sahaja > state... it is effortless... Jai: Stilling the mind leads only to a lightened mind not an enlightened mind. For that one should do shastra-shravana-manana- nidhidhyasanam. It is said "janaat eva kaivalyam" - "Moksha is only through knowledge". No where in the shastra it is claimed that a stilled mind will lead to Moksha. But a calm mind bereft of conflicts and distractions is conducive for knowledge to take place and is a qualification for gaining this knowledge. > But what does it afford to say that the samadhi state of subject and > object is what advaitins mainly strive to attain? that is still > within the state of Duality.... Jai: Even knowledge also is within duality only. Brahman being already nithya-shuddha-buddha-muktah does not need any knowledge. So the knowledge is for the individual who is in duality. But Atmajnanam or self knowledge although taking place within the duality, negates the duality like a dream tiger frightens you and wakes you up thus negating the very dream. with love and prayers, Jaishankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 > "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > >> my question is this... what is the goal of advaita vedanta.. is to >to >> merely know about Brahman, or is it to know Brahman directly... the >> only way to know Brahman directly is within realization... and that >> only happens when subject and object have ended.... > >Jai: The subject object division ends everyday while sleeping also. >Does it mean anything? The end of subject-object duality is in terms >of knowledge alone. This has to be clearly understood. > >Further > >"Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: >> intellectually >> knowing that mind is only maya and absolutely "knowing" are two >> entirely different things... one only thinks that it knows and is >> once again being decieved by another illusion of truth.... so if >you >> are only striving for the subject and object samadhi - what have >you >> gained? only another minds game and illusion.... illusion only ends >> and is shattered when Brahman is "known" beyond the 5 senses... and >> that only happens when mind - thought is ended... and emotions are >> stilled... once that has taken place then you may rest in the >sahaja >> state... it is effortless... > >Jai: Stilling the mind leads only to a lightened mind not an >enlightened mind. For that one should do shastra-shravana-manana- >nidhidhyasanam. It is said "janaat eva kaivalyam" - "Moksha is only >through knowledge". No where in the shastra it is claimed that a >stilled mind will lead to Moksha. But a calm mind bereft of conflicts >and distractions is conducive for knowledge to take place and is a >qualification for gaining this knowledge. > >> But what does it afford to say that the samadhi state of subject >and >> object is what advaitins mainly strive to attain? that is still >> within the state of Duality.... > >Jai: Even knowledge also is within duality only. Brahman being >already nithya-shuddha-buddha-muktah does not need any knowledge. So >the knowledge is for the individual who is in duality. But Atmajnanam >or self knowledge although taking place within the duality, negates >the duality like a dream tiger frightens you and wakes you up thus >negating the very dream. > >with love and prayers, > >Jaishankar Jai to Shankar - He expressed it beautifully. Subject-object is not the problem. Duality is not the problem. World is not the problems. Thoughts are not the problem. What is the problem is taking the duality of subject-object or thoughts or the world as reality is the problem. The knowledge is the substratum that pervades the subject-object, the world the thoughts is non-dual - one without a second - all duality is only apparent but not real just as gold existing as many ornaments. Ornaments are not different from gold. One does not have to destroy ornaments to see the oneness of the gold. that is not in spite of the apparent plurality, the reality is free from plurality. - One who sees oneself in all and all in oneself is j~naani - one who can see the reality in the plurality. Ignorance is in the mind and absence of mind is not the absence of ignorance - one can achieve the absence of mind by drugs or by sleep as Jai pointed out. It is the absence of notions or negation of false understanding is the knowledge - neti neti - not this not this - in this, not this it is not that this is separate from me - knowledge I am the totality wherein all this and this and this are included in that totality. That is what 'aham brahmaasmi' means. And that is true samaadhi state - not just quiet mind is samaadhi - just a quiet mind is ignorant quiet mind instead of ignorant agitated mind. Ignorance remains unless one becomes j~naani. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 --- Ganga Karmokar <crystalkundalini wrote: .... > But what does it afford to say that the samadhi > state of subject and > object is what advaitins mainly strive to attain? > that is still > within the state of Duality.... > --- It is wrong to conclude that advaitins strive to attain samadhi state of subject and object.The concept of 'state' itself is within the realm of 'duality'.An Advaitin shuns this concept and strives to go beyond the realm of all 'states'. Casting off this name and form state of 'advaitin' too in 'BRAHMAN' as 'BRAHMAN'-----then-----'BRAHMAN'alone 'IS'. Hari Om! Swaminarayan Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 K. Sadananda wrote: > > Subject-object is not the problem. Duality is not the problem. > World is not the problems. Thoughts are not the problem. > > What is the problem is taking the duality of subject-object or > thoughts or the world as reality is the problem. The knowledge is > the substratum that pervades the subject-object, the world the > thoughts is non-dual - one without a second - all duality is only > apparent but not real just as gold existing as many ornaments. > Ornaments are not different from gold. One does not have to destroy > ornaments to see the oneness of the gold. that is not in spite of > the apparent plurality, the reality is free from plurality. - One > who sees oneself in all and all in oneself is j~naani - one who can > see the reality in the plurality. Ignorance is in the mind and > absence of mind is not the absence of ignorance - one can achieve the > absence of mind by drugs or by sleep as Jai pointed out. It is the > absence of notions or negation of false understanding is the > knowledge - neti neti - not this not this - in this, not this it is > not that this is separate from me - knowledge I am the totality > wherein all this and this and this are included in that totality. > That is what 'aham brahmaasmi' means. And that is true samaadhi state > - not just quiet mind is samaadhi - just a quiet mind is ignorant > quiet mind instead of ignorant agitated mind. Ignorance remains > unless one becomes j~naani. > *beautifully* stated!! i would only point out that the final self-judgment as to whether one is a jnani or ajnani, is the last and most formidable obstacle [and final, master trick of the ego that desperately wants to maintain the charade of control]! the way to overcome this last judgment [on the string of innumerable historic judgments in/of the ego], is to resort still and yet to the atmavichara, by asking: "who is it that's claiming to be or not to be a jnani?" this is the sadhaka's anti-ballistic missile to disarm the ego-Mind's nuclear Smart Bomb! (the Mind's power is in its capacity to weave and sustain habits. and this habit of judging is not only its most lethal and difficult to break, it is also its first and last.) OM svaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Brahman is God,who is most loving,full of compassion.our own Father ,Mother,Grandfather,Well wisher,the most beautiful,the most charming,giver of all boons,answer to our deepest needs and prayers,your Ishta deva.He is everywhere,including in the beautiful divine deities in the temples as well as your own hearts.Call upon Him by whatever name ,Sri Krishna,Sri Rama, Hanuman,Lord Shiva,Muruga,Sri Laksmi,Sri Durga,Sri Saraswati or Jesus,or Buddha or Allah!Call upon Him as Prahlada.As Bhagawan Shankara did in Bhaja Govindam,and in Lakshmi Narasimha karavalambana stotram,call upon Him.We will only see Him even in Samadhi state! Any spiritual quest will be fruitful by calling upon Him .In samadhi state we will only be in His embrace,in the lap of the Divine Mother whose Love is beyond all imagination! Love And Happy Sankrati to all Ananda Sagar Manmanabhava,Madbhakto,Madyajee,Mam Namaskuru! So says Bhagavan Sri Krishna! Manmanabhava Jaishankar Narayanan <jaishankar_n wrote: "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > my question is this... what is the goal of advaita vedanta.. is to to > merely know about Brahman, or is it to know Brahman directly... the > only way to know Brahman directly is within realization... and that > only happens when subject and object have ended.... Jai: The subject object division ends everyday while sleeping also. Does it mean anything? The end of subject-object duality is in terms of knowledge alone. This has to be clearly understood. Further "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > intellectually > knowing that mind is only maya and absolutely "knowing" are two > entirely different things... one only thinks that it knows and is > once again being decieved by another illusion of truth.... so if you > are only striving for the subject and object samadhi - what have you > gained? only another minds game and illusion.... illusion only ends > and is shattered when Brahman is "known" beyond the 5 senses... and > that only happens when mind - thought is ended... and emotions are > stilled... once that has taken place then you may rest in the sahaja > state... it is effortless... Jai: Stilling the mind leads only to a lightened mind not an enlightened mind. For that one should do shastra-shravana-manana- nidhidhyasanam. It is said "janaat eva kaivalyam" - "Moksha is only through knowledge". No where in the shastra it is claimed that a stilled mind will lead to Moksha. But a calm mind bereft of conflicts and distractions is conducive for knowledge to take place and is a qualification for gaining this knowledge. > But what does it afford to say that the samadhi state of subject and > object is what advaitins mainly strive to attain? that is still > within the state of Duality.... Jai: Even knowledge also is within duality only. Brahman being already nithya-shuddha-buddha-muktah does not need any knowledge. So the knowledge is for the individual who is in duality. But Atmajnanam or self knowledge although taking place within the duality, negates the duality like a dream tiger frightens you and wakes you up thus negating the very dream. with love and prayers, Jaishankar eGroups Sponsor Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ For Temporary stoppage of your Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-nomail > To resume normal delivery of Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-normal > To receive email digest (one per day) send a blank email to <advaitin-digest > To to advaitin list, send a blank email to <advaitin-> Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 advaitin , Shree K. Sadananda" <sada@a...> wrote: > > Subject-object is not the problem. Duality is not the problem. > World is not the problems. Thoughts are not the problem. > > What is the problem is taking the duality of subject-object or > thoughts or the world as reality is the problem. The knowledge is > the substratum that pervades the subject-object, the world the > thoughts is non-dual - one without a second - all duality is only > apparent but not real just as gold existing as many ornaments. > Ornaments are not different from gold. One does not have to destroy > ornaments to see the oneness of the gold. that is not in spite of > the apparent plurality, the reality is free from plurality. This is so wonderfully said. A little 'spin' to this from our beloved Gitanjali. --- Deliverance? Where is this deliverance to be found? Our master himself has joyfully taken upon him the bonds of creation; he is bound with us all for ever. Deliverance is not for me in renunciation. I feel the embrace of freedom in a thousand bonds of delight. Thou ever pourest for me the fresh draught of thy wine of various colours and fragrance, filling this earthen vessel to the brim. My world will light its hundred different lamps with thy flame and place them before the altar of thy temple. No, I will never shut the doors of my senses. The delights of sight and hearing and touch will bear thy delight. Yes, all my illusions will burn into illumination of joy, and all my desires ripen into fruits of love. --- With Kindest Regards, Raghava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo> wrote: > > Is' nt it Yoga which is defined as "Chittha Vritti > Nirodaha " ? The Yogas shastras define many Samadhis > which have "Bija" (seed) in it. They also define > "Nirbija Samadhi" the ultimate state. Therefore what > type of Samadhi do you say as "chitta vrtti nirodha" ? > > Anand > In the Sutra "Yogaschittavrtti nirodaha" the word Yoga means samadhi. with love and prayers, Jaishankar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo> wrote: > > Is' nt it Yoga which is defined as "Chittha Vritti > Nirodaha " ? The Yogas shastras define many Samadhis > which have "Bija" (seed) in it. They also define > "Nirbija Samadhi" the ultimate state. Therefore what > type of Samadhi do you say as "chitta vrtti nirodha" ? > > Anand > In the Sutra "Yogaschittavrtti nirodaha" the word Yoga means samadhi. with love and prayers, Jaishankar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Namaste - Dearest Jai - It is clear that you have no concept of what is being said... it is not within your experience therefore you do not understand... what you are speaking of is relative experience and knowledge.... intellectualizing again and again... you never can "know" Brahman through the reading of texts... you can only know about Brahman... When i speak of "knowing Brahman" it is within the terms of absolute direct experience which is beyond all subject and object... it is beyond mind and the 5 senses.... this is Jivanmukti a knower of Brahman.... one who only knows about - through texts and through "faith" will never be a jivanmukti.... there is a vast difference on the levels... If you have all the intellectual knowledge concerning an orange you can talk all day about what it is... orange in color... sweet in taste... round in nature... crisp in fragrance... but without ever having seen nor tasted one of what use is it.... it is only when you hold one in your hand and taste and smell that you "know" what an orange is.... now do not take this illustration in the same context as to the state of realization... When the mind is stilled then the Bliss or Anand will rise of its own accord... then and only then are you ready to surrender all effort... then and only then can you surrender ego - desire - knowledge at the feet of the divine... and only then will you transcend to the "knowing" which is beyond mind and knowledge.... within realization the "Knowing of Brahman" is not by subject - object... nor by any of the 5 senses... the ego dies and ALL that remains is the PRISTINE AWARENESS OF the FORMLESS CONSTANT- or BRAHMAN - or SOURCE .... then and only then do you "KNOW" what is unknowable..... first gain the experience and then speak of what you know to be true... why do you postulate hearsay? you only think that it is true because you have either read it in a text or becuase your guru has said so.... now it is time for you to find out for yourself.... this is the whole point and the whole aim of Advaita.... is not to rely upon it as a philosophy to be a "knower of Brahman".... to become a Jivanmukti.... it is possible within this lifetime.... but you must be willing to drop the intellectual debates and to enter fully into the silence of Self....... Love and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2000 Report Share Posted December 29, 2000 Dear Friends, "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > Namaste - > Dearest Jai - > It is clear that you have no concept of what is being said... it is > not within your experience therefore you do not understand... Jai: I think you passing judgements on me is unnecessary here. How do you know what experience I have? "Para hrdayam apratyaksham" - "Others' mind is not perceptible". Further, "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: what > you are speaking of is relative experience and knowledge.... > intellectualizing again and again... you never can "know" Brahman > through the reading of texts... you can only know about Brahman... > When i speak of "knowing Brahman" it is within the terms of absolute > direct experience which is beyond all subject and object... it is > beyond mind and the 5 senses.... this is Jivanmukti a knower of > Brahman.... one who only knows about - through texts and > through "faith" will never be a jivanmukti.... there is a vast > difference on the levels... Jai: What is the direct experience you are talking about? Is not everyone experiencing the self most intimately all the time? When did you not experience the self, so that you are going to attain a new special "direct experience" ? Experience is dumb. Infact all our problems are due to wrong interpretations of our experiences. So the solution is knowledge and knowledge alone. All practices are only to gain the qualifications to gain the self knowledge. "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > If you have all the intellectual knowledge concerning an orange you > can talk all day about what it is... orange in color... sweet in > taste... round in nature... crisp in fragrance... but without ever > having seen nor tasted one of what use is it.... it is only when you > hold one in your hand and taste and smell that you "know" what an > orange is.... Jai : This orange analogy is not correct. Orange is an external object and can be remote and so a knowledge of orange need not translate into valid experience/knowledge of the same. But the self being experienced all the time by everyone, and the problem being only wrong notions about oneself, just being pointed out by the guru and the vedas is enough if the person is qualified to receive this knowledge. "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > now do not take this illustration in the same context > as to the state of realization... When the mind is stilled then the > Bliss or Anand will rise of its own accord... Jai: Nothing needs to arise. what will arise where? Self is already anantha and ananda. It is the wrong notion that "I am a wanting person' which leads to all sorrow. When this wrong notion is gone the self remains as it is. "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > then and only then are > you ready to surrender all effort... then and only then can you > surrender ego - desire - knowledge at the feet of the divine... and > only then will you transcend to the "knowing" which is beyond mind > and knowledge.... within realization the "Knowing of Brahman" is not > by subject - object... nor by any of the 5 senses... the ego dies and > ALL that remains is the PRISTINE AWARENESS OF the FORMLESS CONSTANT- > or BRAHMAN - or SOURCE .... then and only then do you "KNOW" what is > unknowable..... Jai: What knowing can happen beyond the mind? All knowledge takes place only in the mind. "Brahman/self is beyond the mind" is to be understood only in the mind. Thats why shruti says "manasaa eva anudrshtavyam" - "has to be seen only by the mind". "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > first gain the experience and then speak of what you know to be > true... why do you postulate hearsay? you only think that it is true > because you have either read it in a text or becuase your guru has > said so.... now it is time for you to find out for yourself.... Jai: I think it is better to refrain from personal remarks in a forum like this. You have no idea about my knowledge or whether I have any experience. So why talk about something which you dont know. "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > this is the whole point and the whole aim of Advaita.... is not to rely > upon it as a philosophy to be a "knower of Brahman".... to become a > Jivanmukti.... it is possible within this lifetime.... but you must > be willing to drop the intellectual debates and to enter fully into > the silence of Self....... > Jai: Intellect is not a problem. In fact it is the best aid when it is guided by the guru and the vedas. The self is silent whether there is any debate or not as it is always asangaha. with love and prayers, Jaishankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2000 Report Share Posted December 29, 2000 Shree Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini >Namaste - >Dearest Jai - >It is clear that you have no concept of what is being said... it is >not within your experience therefore you do not understand... I request Shree Ganga Karmokar to refrain from personal derogatory statements but discuss the topic purely on its own merit. There is no place for personal derogatory statements in the advaitin list. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2000 Report Share Posted December 29, 2000 "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > > > > now do not take this illustration in the same context > > as to the state of realization... When the mind is stilled then the > > Bliss or Anand will rise of its own accord... > > Jai: Nothing needs to arise. what will arise where? Self is already > anantha and ananda. It is the wrong notion that "I am a wanting > person' which leads to all sorrow. When this wrong notion is gone the > self remains as it is. hariH OM! if i may say [notwithstanding the *appearance* of ad hoc dialogue], excellent points made on both sides, especially in jaishankarji's rebuttal. i'd say that probably 70% of human miscommunications are the product of lexicological and ideological semantics. please consider the following: the difference between the idea of the jnani and ajnani is the difference between sitting in still air and noticing its existence by a passing breeze. we're all only brahman. and so-called jnana is in fact the recognition that the will of the Mind [to achieve what it believes it's capable of *beholding*, as knowledge of the Self] is what needs to be defused. also, the idea that desire must be destroyed before moksha is possible, is misleading. desire is an eternal feature integral to Existence Itself. it is the cause, sustenance and destruction of the miracle of Life. it is the vital and core component in maya Itself, which is in turn in/of the very nature of brahman. rig veda unequivocally bears this out in its opening stanzas. where desire has adversely affected the jiva, is in its *apparent* impact on the living awareness. through habit and ignorance (act of *ignoring* one's immanent/natural state of freedom), desire was allowed to become the powerful locomotive of the train of our awareness, instead of one of its incidental boxcars. our charge is simply to re-assign its role and function. the attributeless satchidananda and its cyclical projection into Life [being the product of desire], isn't intrinsically existentially meaningless. brahman is all there *is*, and there is boundless beauty even in the pathos of its relative works of fleeting tragedies and sorrows. jesus has said, "resist not evil." such statements are rich with meaning. namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2000 Report Share Posted December 29, 2000 I think the trouble and confusion arises due to limitation of precise words available in all languages especially in English,in order to express abstract and sublime ideas.In fact,such limitations have been the root cause for all religious misinterpretations (and quarrels) of not only sacred Hindu scriptures,but also Holy Bible etc historically.Also every individual has also limitation in selecting the right words at the right time in the right context..Therefore it is better not to give undue importance or split hairs on the words but let us try to enjoy the underlying meaning they are trying to convey with mutual respect and love (suhrudam).. Bhagawan Sri Krishna cautions that whatever is expressed by human tongue and understood by the limited intellect in the instrument of human mind is unreal or anritam.(Uddhava Geetha). Love to all! Ananda Sagar f maiello <egodust wrote: "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > > > > now do not take this illustration in the same context > > as to the state of realization... When the mind is stilled then the > > Bliss or Anand will rise of its own accord... > > Jai: Nothing needs to arise. what will arise where? Self is already > anantha and ananda. It is the wrong notion that "I am a wanting > person' which leads to all sorrow. When this wrong notion is gone the > self remains as it is. hariH OM! if i may say [notwithstanding the *appearance* of ad hoc dialogue], excellent points made on both sides, especially in jaishankarji's rebuttal. i'd say that probably 70% of human miscommunications are the product of lexicological and ideological semantics. please consider the following: the difference between the idea of the jnani and ajnani is the difference between sitting in still air and noticing its existence by a passing breeze. we're all only brahman. and so-called jnana is in fact the recognition that the will of the Mind [to achieve what it believes it's capable of *beholding*, as knowledge of the Self] is what needs to be defused. also, the idea that desire must be destroyed before moksha is possible, is misleading. desire is an eternal feature integral to Existence Itself. it is the cause, sustenance and destruction of the miracle of Life. it is the vital and core component in maya Itself, which is in turn in/of the very nature of brahman. rig veda unequivocally bears this out in its opening stanzas. where desire has adversely affected the jiva, is in its *apparent* impact on the living awareness. through habit and ignorance (act of *ignoring* one's immanent/natural state of freedom), desire was allowed to become the powerful locomotive of the train of our awareness, instead of one of its incidental boxcars. our charge is simply to re-assign its role and function. the attributeless satchidananda and its cyclical projection into Life [being the product of desire], isn't intrinsically existentially meaningless. brahman is all there *is*, and there is boundless beauty even in the pathos of its relative works of fleeting tragedies and sorrows. jesus has said, "resist not evil." such statements are rich with meaning. namaste eGroups Sponsor Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ For Temporary stoppage of your Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-nomail > To resume normal delivery of Email, send a blank email to <advaitin-normal > To receive email digest (one per day) send a blank email to <advaitin-digest > To to advaitin list, send a blank email to <advaitin-> Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2000 Report Share Posted December 29, 2000 --- Jaishankar Narayanan <jaishankar_n wrote: > Dear Friends, > > "Ganga Karmokar" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote: > > Namaste - > > Dearest Jai - ---------------- Dear Gangaji and Jaiji, With all my heart, I wish to appeal to both of you to drop further discussion on this 'exchanges' of yours.That is , for the sake of the unity of the list members. Gangaji, Enlightened souls do not PROFESS. Jaiji, Enlightened souls do not RETORT. With warm respects and regards, Hari Om!, Swaminarayan. Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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