Action, Free will versus fate

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Subramanian:

 

Your points are well taken and it was my mistake in not fully stating

all the caveats in my assertions. Thanks for your excellent points. I

am looking forward to learn from your scholarly postings.

 

As you have rightly stated, everything that I state is also subject

to my limited understanding and we can certainly help each other with

friendly exchanges such as yours. As long as we express our view

points with courtesy and humility, we can all benefit whether we are

correct or incorrect. This freedom of expression will ultimately

help us to remove our ignorance by friendly exchanges through this

forum.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

advaitin , "sunder hattangadi" <sunderh@h...> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> Some more Ramana sayings: [from "Talks..", 1972.]

>

> " Free will and Destiny last as long as the body lasts. But wisdom

> transcends both, for the Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance.".

>

> "Free-Will holds the field in association with individuality. As

long

> as individuality lasts so long there is Free-Will. All the shastras

> are based on this fact and they advise directing the Free-Will in

the

> right channel.. Find out to whom the Free-Will or Destiny matters.

> Abide in it. Then these two are transcended. That is the only

purpose

> of discussing these question. To whom do these questions arise?

Find

> out and be at peace."

>

> "So long as there is individuality, one is the enjoyer and doer.

But

> if it is lost, the Divine will prevails and guides the course of

> events. The individual is perceptible to others who cannot perceive

> divine force. Restrictions and discipline are for other individuals

> and not for the liberated.

> Free-will is implied in the scriptural injunctions to be good. It

> implies overcoming fate. It is done by wisdom. The fire of wisdom

> consumes all actions. Wisdom is acquired by association with the

> wise, or rather, its mental atmosphere."

>

namaste -

Yes ... this is what i was attempting to convey... while in ego you

are the one that determines your so-called destiny by your actions

which create your Karma... when the ego drops the only the divine

action and residule karma play out... but you as Brahman are ever

unattached to any of those events.....

 

Love and Blessings

[Guest guest]

I have a dilemma. I had previously suggested that we bring this discussion

to an end. Yet this last digest probably has more posts on this topic than

all previous ones and several writers comment that they are enjoying it.

Ram, too, suggests we now stop. I have a choice to make - so many would have

it. I can sit in stillness (or otherwise) and act - either to close down the

email program and switch off the computer or to type in still further

remarks on the subject.

 

Clearly, since you are now reading this, I made a choice. Of what did this

choice consist? I could say that I mentally listed all of the arguments for

and against, weighted them all according to some algorithm, added up the

results and chose the option that scored highest. Would this be an exercise

of free will? (No doubt many will say that the 'choice' to do it in this way

would be.) I could say that, incensed with the latest set of objections, I

reacted by immediately beginning to type, anxious to press home my firmly

held convictions. In fact, it was neither of these two. There were very many

factors influencing the 'decision'. My nature has been nurtured from sources

too numerous to mention or even recollect. My 15+ years study of advaita is

clearly particularly influential. I have tendencies to think too much as

well as tendencies to continue arguing until I convince an opponent. I have

read many books, listened to various teachers of philosopy and, in my

younger years, discussed the meaning of life, the universe and everything

over a pint down at the pub. You may, if you wish, add to these the vAsanAs

from previous lives. With all due respect to Swaminarayan however, I believe

this is irrelevant to the discussion (who is there to be reincarnated

anyway?).

 

At any given moment (indeed at every moment of our waking lives) there is

action or inaction. Something initiates these actions. Let's call the

initiating action a 'choice' on our part. It is my assertion that this

choice is made as a result of the vector sum of all of these forces

(vAsanAs, thoughts, persuasions etc. etc.) that are acting at the moment of

choice, both from past and present. Depending on one's relative degree of

enlightenment, the ratio of manas:buddhi that is operating will differ. For

a few of us in occasional moments, there may be 100% buddhi and then, there

will effectively be no vAsanAs or habit playing a part; the choice will be a

simple and pure response to the present need, past influences will not be

relevant. Here the mathematical sum is very much simpler: - action =

response to need. But in ALL cases, the action is a sum of those forces. The

question of 'freedom' is simply not relevant. Nor is the question of 'fate'

if it comes to that. Just because I have always acted in a particular way in

a certain situation does not mean I am fated to act that way always. Some

new influence may come into play next time, which changes the action

completely.

 

And now briefly to address some of the points from the last digest: -

 

Frank said "**and yet** a line of logic can also be propounded that shows

relative determinism to be false since it would delimit the power of God or

isvara." I don't see why this should be so. Is it not Iswara's feedom that

He chose to create this universe such that there is a law of cause and

effect? No doubt He may create another where this is not the case but then

our relative reality takes place in this one. (I agree incidentally that all

of these discussions are for our intellectual amusement only - I hope no one

thinks I am taking them seriously!)

 

Sadananda says "Vasana-s will push you in terms of likes and dislikes - here

humans who has discriminative intellect differs from the animals who do not

have. They follow their vasana-s and hence there is no choice in their

action. No willful actions - Hence they do not accumulate new vasaana-s."

Sorry, but is there not a contradiction here? How can animals follow their

vAsanAs if they do not accumulate any? From where did they get them to

follow in the first place? (This is an aside; not really relevant to the

main discussion.) I understand what you are saying about the discriminative

intellect but, as noted above, I do not see that its operation is other than

a cause-effect one, albeit it of a much more refined nature than the course

one of manas.

 

"He cannot but choose - In fact I can say he has no choice but to choose."

 

Exactly! The choice is a cause-effect relationship, not one involving

freedom.

 

"One makes a choice depending on his likes and dislikes or what is right or

what is wrong. The power to choose or what is termed freely is the gift

that comes with one who is endowed with the discriminative intellect."

 

Yes, whichever like or dislike is dominant, whichever right or wrong carries

the most influence will tilt the balance and a 'choice' will be made. The

process is complicated but a sufficiently powerful computer possessed of all

of the information would be able to work out what the decision would be.

Indeed - and perhaps this is the key to the discussion - the brain of the

person involved *is such a computer*!

 

"Dennis - you are going too fast. a decision is made by whom? of the

several choices a decision has to be made in selecting what is the best

choice. And since one is making with ego involved, he is accountable to

that choice."

 

The decision is made by us, yes, but in a deterministic way. Yes it is a

choice in the sense that there is a selection of options and one is chosen

but there is no freedom involved. At that moment, we could not act in any

other way. The only thing that could change the decision would be another

item of information or another factor in the equation but then that would be

another moment and another unique choice, determined by the vector sum of

those factors. You also ask who is making this choice. Is it not effectively

the ego? And is this ego not illusory?

 

"A cause and effect relationship is unique then there is no decision to

make."

 

There is always a decision to be made but this is simply a part of the

overall process and involves no free will. In my example of the movie,

perhaps the metaphor was not altogether a good one. Perhaps I should have

said that, when you told me that you were going to see a particular movie, I

told you that I had seen that film and thought it not particularly good. Now

you have to balance your original desire against what I have said. How much

did you want to see it? Where did you hear about it? How much do you value

my opinion? Would you want to offend me by ignoring my remarks? etc. etc.

The final decision will be the vector sum of all of these, together with

other influencing factors (e.g. is it raining, how much money do you have

etc.)

 

"If the nature and lord makes the choice or another way to put it the choice

has been made, they why he should be accountable for that action and why

should he accumulate new vaasana-s."

 

I don't think this is relevant to the discussion. Is it not the case that

the theory of vAsanAs comes about because one assumes that free will exists?

We cannot then use the 'fact' that there are vAsanAs to argue the case for

free will.

 

"In fact it is only at that level the feedom of choice is there. Anyway I

have presented from what I know. Now You have to present me arguments that

convince me that there is no free will! I am open and you have to make sure

I have no choice but to accept a decision that there is no free will which

has already been made by things beyond my control!"

 

No! The decision you talk about has *not* already been made; I have never

claimed this. What I am saying is that, at the moment of decision, all of

the factors will take their relative weightings and the decision will be the

cause and effect outcome. But yes, it is 'beyond your control'.

 

Ganesh asks "now i have something to ask.. my question is .. is not the

intellect influenced by one's vAsanAs ? "

 

No. This is the 'right action' of the giitaa, when buddhi functions

perfectly and the response is purely to the need in front of one. No vAsanAs

involved but, (straight cause and effect), no free will either. Indeed, the

ability of the antaHkaraNa to function in this way is itself a result of

vAsanAs (or saadhanaa if you like, which amounts to the same thing).

 

Vidyasankar says "I would suggest that we first step back a little and

examine the words we use. It is well and good to talk of vAsanAs and all

that, but we have to remember that the vAsanAs are only generated by

previous actions and their results. In addition to prior vAsanAs, we also

actively do things now, things that generate their own vAsanAs for the

future. It is also well and good to talk of "free will", but one has to know

what it is that is "free" here. If one brings God into the discussion, then

that God has to be not only gracious and forgiving, but also fair and just."

 

I don't think we should bring God into the equation. As was suggested quite

early on, this discussion is only valid at the level of vyaavahaara. We know

that there is only Brahman, that He is without limits etc; that nothing can

happen without Brahman and so on. Here, however, we (the illusory ego) live

out our illusory existence with the illusion of free will and it is in this

context that the discussion is taking place. I am simply arguing that there

is no need to introduce the concepts of fate or free will or destiny. All we

need is the law of cause and effect (one of the laws instigated by Iswara to

govern this creation).

 

"This does not mean that one is merely a blind thing caught in an endless

illusion. We acknowledge that something within an illusion can function as a

trigger to get one out of the illusion, e.g. being chased by a tiger in a

dream can be a stimulant that makes you wake up!"

 

Yes! And perhaps the recognition that there is neither fate nor free will

but only cause and effect will be instrumental in providing that trigger.

 

Ram notes that "Your suggestion that 'People soon discover that they

themselves suffer least in the long run if they treat others as they

themselves prefer to be treated,' has an implied assumption that 'people

make their using some preference

criteria!' It is impossible to rule out the appearance of some degree of

'free-will' in your assertion."

 

No, it is my wording only that gives this impression. It is not that they

can choose to treat others as they would wish to be treated. Some can act in

this way; others cannot. It all depends on vAsanAs and circumstances in the

moment; no choice. But having acted, they see the results of their actions

and note that the better outcome seems to come when they DO treat others

well. On the next occasion, this knowledge carries a more significant

weighting and it becomes more likely that they will act in the 'good' way.

Still no free will.

 

"In an earlier post, you suggested that 'Let us bring an end to this

(extremely interesting) discussion." I whole heartedly agree. I remember a

famous paradoxical statement: 'No one will be ever be convinced by other's

argument.'"

 

I have often been convinced by the arguments of others. Indeed, it was

partly in the hope that someone might convince me that free will does exist

that I began these posts. If ones existing opinions are based on faulty

logic, it is inevitable that they will fall to well argued truth.

 

Ananda Sagar says "But,are we not forgetting the role of Brahman or God?Is

He just a silent spectator watching a human helplessly caught in Karma

cycle? No.While Karma cycle is a natural law of Prakriti, a human being when

undergoing the pains and sufferings becomes an arta and turns to God, the

Lord will rush to interfere and rescue the devotee from this Karma Cycle

caused by the free will of an ignorant or sick mind."

 

As noted earlier, I do not think Brahman is relevant to this discussion. You

are really talking about Grace, here, which is clearly outside of the realm

of cause and effect!

 

Ganga says "but the point being to your question you are either driven by

the belief that you can do nothing to alter your

course and for you this will be truth.... for you are only what your mind

conceives..."

 

I do not believe I, the ego, can do anything to move me towards realisation.

The Self is already realised; the ego is an illusion. The topic of 'paths'

etc. is really another discussion and I feel it would confuse the issue to

pursue this. But certainly, I (my true nature) am *not* what the mind

conceives. The truth is far beyond the ability of the mind.

 

Best wishes and namaste to all,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

We had a free-wheeling discussion for the past two (may be three?)

weeks on this topic. Many new points have been brought out, we had

many new active participants in the discussion. But there is a

time to bring closure to a topic and I think the time is now.

 

I congratulate all the participants in this discussion and all

the listeners. It is a good learning experience for all. May be,

we shift any further discussion on this topic, in a one-on-one

or in small groups to the chat-facilty available both on

and escribe.com. The summary by Dennis is an excellent closure

to the topic for the moment.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

Dennis wrote:

>

>At any given moment (indeed at every moment of our waking lives) there is

>action or inaction. Something initiates these actions. Let's call the

>initiating action a 'choice' on our part. It is my assertion that this

>choice is made as a result of the vector sum of all of these forces

>(vAsanAs, thoughts, persuasions etc. etc.) that are acting at the moment of

>choice, both from past and present.

 

Dennis - I get the feeling that we are only talking about semantics

here. What you call at every moment the vector sum of all the

factors leads to action - and the next action includes the new input

to the vector sum that takes into consideration the results of the

precious action. - Only difference in the argument is that the vector

sum at any point in time need not be a unique factor - there are

several degenarate eigen values of which one that is decided (for the

time being let us omit who made that decision) is most probably taken

which you may call as deterministic vector result. Your argument that

there is a unique deterministic value, I consider that as the

statement after the fact. At the time of decision making there are

degenerate eigen vectors each with certain probabilities, but one of

them get a boost by 'the deciding factor'. That decision making

factor out of different eigen states I call the free will- when you

conclude that it is the only one deterministic value, I consider that

only a statement after the fact that is after the decision but at the

time of decision there is no unique deterministic factor -only some

factors are more probable than others. What makes it as unique

deterministic vector at the time of execution is the additional input

to the system by the deciding factor.

 

Here is some diversion for fun- There was one astrologer who was well

known to predict events very accurately. One fellow wanted to prove

that this astrologer was wrong. So he held in his fist a very tiny

fly and asked the astrologer to predict whether the fly is alive or

dead. He thought if the astrologer says it is alive, he can squeeze

it to death, and if the astrologer says it is dead he can let it go

and show that it is alive, and in either case the prediction will be

proved wrong. But the astrologer was too smart for him - He predicted

that whether it is alive or dead depends on the fellow.

>

>Sadananda says "Vasana-s will push you in terms of likes and dislikes - here

>humans who has discriminative intellect differs from the animals who do not

>have. They follow their vasana-s and hence there is no choice in their

>action. No willful actions - Hence they do not accumulate new vasaana-s."

>Sorry, but is there not a contradiction here? How can animals follow their

>vAsanAs if they do not accumulate any? From where did they get them to

>follow in the first place? (This is an aside; not really relevant to the

>main discussion.)

 

Dennis - I was afraid you are going to raise that issue. As per my

understanding animals are born with set of vaasana-s from prior life

and they only exhaust them. Here you are to separate the anotomical

evolution as per Darwin versus down fall of jiiva. According to

Vedanta, evolution is in both directions man can degrade himself to

become an animal to exhaust particular type of vaasana-s which

cannot be exhausted in human form. Since ' will ' is not there no

new vaasana-s are accumulated in those life forms. Hence there is no

contradiction in my understanding.

 

>

>I do not believe I, the ego, can do anything to move me towards realisation.

>The Self is already realised; the ego is an illusion.

 

Dennis so is the realization process! Ego is an illusion is only a

statement after the fact!

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

I agree that we had an excellent and exhaustive discussion on this

topic. The two chief participants: Sri Sadananda and Sri Dennis have

fittingly concluded the discussion summarizing their thoughts.

 

I fully agree with the decision of our Chief Moderator, Sri Gummuluru

Murthy's decision to close the discussions.

 

I request the members to extend their enthusiastic participation on

the list sponsored discussions 'Brahmasuutra' and 'Gitasatsang.'

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram chandran

 

Note: Though the discussions on this topic is concluded, please don't

hesitate to post a scholarly article on the above subject matter.

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

 

No human effort without seeking in earnest the helping hand of God can be

successful in dropping ego,transcending gunaas,doing nishkama karma (unselfish

action), or giving up desires or conquering one's mind or overcoming Maaya.Lord

Sri Krishna therefore directs us to surrender to Him in the final sloka of

Srimad Bhagawad Geetha as well as the final sloka of Uddhava Geetha!In the same

manner,Bhagawan Shankara seeks the helping hand of Sri Lakshmi Narasimha in the

famous Lakshmi Narasimha karaavalambana stotra.

 

 

 

Bhagawan Shankara

 

 

 

 

Harsha <harsha-hkl wrote:

 

Ganga Karmokar [crystalkundalini]

 

namaste -

Yes ... this is what i was attempting to convey... while in ego you

are the one that determines your so-called destiny by your actions

which create your Karma... when the ego drops the only the divine

action and residule karma play out...

__________

I am jumping late in this discussion having just come back to town but your

comments lead to the obvious (but perhaps comical question).

 

"Is the dropping of the ego predestined or is it due to your free will (by

which you made the effort) that you are able to drop the ego?

 

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

 

BTA SAGAR [btasagar]

Sunday, January 14, 2001 11:41 PM

advaitin

Re: Action, Free will versus fate

 

Namaste!

 

No human effort without seeking in earnest the helping hand of God can be

successful in dropping ego,transcending gunaas,doing nishkama karma

(unselfish action), or giving up desires or conquering one's mind or

overcoming Maaya.

_______________________

Perhaps the seeking in earnest of the helping hand of God is predestined as

well.

 

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Jagadguru,the supreme Teacher who created this University-the Universe-and took

the trouble of putting us (His amsas) for spiritual evolution can alone answer

such doubts.We have to address our questions to Him directly and prayerfully,as

human intellect cannot.All intellectual speculation forgetting the constant and

dynamic Divine Presence and Role of God leads us nowhere.It is obvious that it

is His Will and Mercy that will allow us to progress in this University.

 

 

Lord Sri Krishna therefore tells us in Bhagawad Gita:

 

Surrender to Him (Ishwara) who is in your Heart alone and is moving you as if in

a machine and place before Him all your thoughts ( doubts and fears).By His

Grace only,you will attain Supreme Everlasting Peace or state of Bliss..

 

 

Regards

 

 

Ananda Sagar

 

 

 

 

 

 

Harsha <harsha-hkl wrote:

 

 

BTA SAGAR [btasagar]

Sunday, January 14, 2001 11:41 PM

advaitin

Re: Action, Free will versus fate

 

Namaste!

 

No human effort without seeking in earnest the helping hand of God can be

successful in dropping ego,transcending gunaas,doing nishkama karma

(unselfish action), or giving up desires or conquering one's mind or

overcoming Maaya.

_______________________

Perhaps the seeking in earnest of the helping hand of God is predestined as

well.

 

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

eGroups Sponsor

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

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