brahmavidyA is self transformation & ishwara, by shri Sadananda (fwd)

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

The following comments on the two threads ( (i) brahma

vidya is self transformation, and, (ii) ishwara by

shri Sadananda did not get through to the List due to

electronic difficulties. I am forwarding them to the List

so that all the members have the benefit of these valuable

comments.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Dear shri sadananda garu,

 

Thanks very much for your very valuable comments on

the two topics. It is too bad they were not available

to the List earlier through the electronic glitches.

I am posting them on to the List so that all the members

have the benefit of your comments.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

 

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"Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda

To:

advaitin

Subject:

Re: brahmavidyA is self transformation

Date:

Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:23:31

 

>Gummuluru Murthy

>namaste

>

>The shruti and shri shankara's bhAShyA-s repeatedly

>say that brahman is untainted by the superimposition.

>That means, brahman is always there in its glorious

>shine and is only masked by the ajnAna. If the ajnAna

>is removed, brahman shines. Brahman is unaffected

>by whatever superimposition or misapprehension that

>is made.

 

Murthy gaaru - I am sure you are fully aware but just want to point

out from what reference these statements are made should be clear.

 

In the above paragraph the statement- 'Brahman ..... is only masked

In the above paragraph the statement- 'Brahman ..... is only masked

by aj~naana'. Brahman can never be masked by anything - since he is

one without a

second. masking and unmasking are only from the point of jiiva who

thinks he is different from Brahman. Brahman shines all the times -

jyotir jyotiH

swayam jyotiH. There is no aj~naana to be removed for Brahman to

shine. Even the aj~naana is known only in the shining light of

Brahman only.

>Quite often, we hear and see of processes in which

>the item to be retrieved is sometimes irreversibly

>changed by its subsequent alterations. In those cases,

>the original cannot be retrieved any more because the

>later events completely change the original.

>BrahmavidyA is not like that. The original is in

>its shiny state all the time. The superimpositions,

>are to be removed.

 

True - Superimpositons are not superimpostions in a real sense - it

is 'as though' superimposed. Hence even the removal of

superimpostions is also a

notion, (or itslef another superimpostion) - a notion that there are

superimpositions and these need to be removed to see Brahman in all

its glory.

>In the process of this removal (of misapprehensions),

>the remover (the ego) has to die willingly. This is

>like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. After the

>transformation, the caterpillar is no longer there.

>It has willingly and joyously given itself up to

>turn into a butterfly. Similarly, the ego has to

>willingly and joyously give itself up to evolve

>as brahman.

 

This notion that ego has to die willingly itslef has to die. This is

ultimate Brahmaastra needed - aham brahmaasmi aj~naanakale api. From

ego's point it is

a self-annihilation and that makes apparent problem appears to be a

real problem. A false guy cannot die, a non-existent caterpillar

cannot transform. But

we are cocooned in these concepts that eveything appears to be a

process and realization is a transformation. The apparent problem

became a real problem

and the solution is not attempting to solve a non-existent problem

but realize the non-existence of the problem. That is the only

solution.

 

I know you are aware of it but could not resist making a note of it.

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

>

 

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"Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda

To:

advaitin

Subject:

Re: Ishwara

Date:

Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:50:37

 

 

Gummuluri Murty wrote:

>So, can knowledge of the SELF take place without

>acceptance of the concept of Ishwara?

>The answer seems to be yes, because the concept of

>Ishwara is still in the realm of avidyA.

 

Yes or no - depending on the complete concept of Iswara. If one

thinks that Iswara is 'out there' then that concept of Iswara is

still in the realm of avidya -

since out there is only a notion in the mind. If one understands the

concept of Iswara correctly - antar bahishcha tat sarvam vyaapya

naaraayaNaH sthitaH -

He is inside and out side - the Kingdom of Heaven is in your heart -

in that case Iswara cannot be separate from the true self - That

becomes true

understanding of Iswara - He is not out there - He is in me too.

Where is that in me - ultimately 'i' gets desolved to realise that

'i' is the same as He - as

Bhagavaan Ramana puts it

 

bheda bhaavana soham ityasou

 

bhaavanabhida paavanii mata||

I am different from Him is bheda bhaavana - soham or I am He is

abhidaa bhaavana - that is the most supreme - paavanii.

>However, as I understand, SELF-knowledge cannot take

>place without devotion. That intense devotion (to the

>SELF) - we may call it shraddha and bhakti - is a necessary

>prerequisite for AtmavidyA.

 

From this it becomes clear that self-knowledge cannot takes place

without devotion. True devotion involves complete unconditional

surrenderance - there

is no more 'i' to worrry about . He alone remains which is same as I,

the capital. That is the true bhakti where bhakta is dissolved into

the knowledge of

HE alone is real. It is not just prerequisite - it is prerequisite

till one dissolves - it is the truth when small i desolves to realize

the bigh I.

In Avadhuuta Geeta - Dattatreya who is an ordent devotee of Shiva says -

 

shivam na jaanaami katham vadaami

 

shivam na jaanaami katham bhajaami

 

ahma sivashchet paramaatma tatvam

 

.........."

 

I donot know Shiva, how can I talk about Him, I donot know Shiva, how

can I pray to Him, .. Because I am that Shiva that supreme reality.

That is the

culmination of Bhakti or prapatti or sharaNaagati.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

>Comments and further elucidation are requested.

>

>

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

>-------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

To me these seem to be the major obstacles that

prevent the dispelling of the feeling that I am a

finite entity.

 

1. Presence of time as a deciding factor :- Sensation

of time is a mental phenomena. It is matter of

experience that the time domain in a dream is

different from the time domain in the waking state. In

deep meditation, time has no meaning at all. If in

conscious waking also, importance to the passage of

time is not felt, it is a great aid in realizing the

unreality of experience through the senses.

 

2. The sensation of continuation :- The factor that

makes dreams (and hence waking) look real is that we

feel that there is a continuity in experience from

some previous state. This experience of continuity

itself is false. We realize this when we wake up from

a dream and we should realize this when we wake up

from the waking state. The Yoga Vashista gives the

analogy of the crow sitting on the coconut tree and

simultaneusly a coconut falling. This is the character

of sense experience. If the expereince of continuity

is lost, then the unreality of the world is felt.

 

3. The Avidya of "Vidya" : Impressions formed in the

impure mind about the state of Self realization from

book learning prevent one from abiding in the Self.

Therefore do sages refrain from characterizing what

the state of a Jnani is. Out of earnestness or

yearning for the supreme, the aspirant studies texts

that reveal the nature of Brahma Vidya. Anything

analyzed by the intellect leaves a residue in the

mind. This residue prevents true experience.

 

Adi Shankara's Bhavani Asktakam says,

 

" I know not religious duties nor do I know

meditation. I know not the practise of Tantra, nor do

I know any mantras. I know not how to do pooja, nor

the practise of Yoga. Therfore you are my only refuge,

O' Mother of the Universe. "

 

--------------

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo> wrote:

> Therefore do sages refrain from characterizing what

> the state of a Jnani is. Out of earnestness or

 

They don't totally refrain from it, e.g. descriptions of the

sthitaprajna and jnaanavaan in giitaa chapters 2, 15 and 18.

> yearning for the supreme, the aspirant studies texts

> that reveal the nature of Brahma Vidya. Anything

> analyzed by the intellect leaves a residue in the

> mind. This residue prevents true experience.

 

If there is a residue that prevents the abiding in the state

of non-duality, then that means that the prior vaasanas are

very strong, and that Brahman has not been fully known. True

Vidya is present only when, like the alum that clears dirt

from water and itself also settles down with the dirt, the

intellectual analysis also sinks, without residue.

 

Namaskars,

Vidyasankar

[Guest guest]

--

> > yearning for the supreme, the aspirant studies texts

> > that reveal the nature of Brahma Vidya. Anything

> > analyzed by the intellect leaves a residue in the

> > mind. This residue prevents true experience.

>

> intellectual analysis also sinks, without residue.

>

> Namaskars,

> Vidyasankar

 

namaste-

Yes that is wonderfully stated.... intellectual persuit will not give

you realization... it can show what you are not that is all... but

experience only comes when mind - thought - desire and pre-conceived

notions have been dropped....

Love and Blessings

[Guest guest]

> If there is a residue that prevents the abiding in

> the state

> of non-duality, then that means that the prior

> vaasanas are

> very strong, and that Brahman has not been fully

> known. True

> Vidya is present only when, like the alum that

> clears dirt

> from water and itself also settles down with the

> dirt, the

> intellectual analysis also sinks, without residue.

>

 

The Vidya you are refering to is from true experienece

and that is true. What I was refering to was

intellectual knowledge. In "Self Realization" of B.V.

Narasimha Swami, we read the following.

A gentleman who was very devoted to the Bhagavad Gita,

came to Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi and asked Him, if He

could show Him His true form as Bhagavan Krshna had

done in the Gita.

Ramana said nothing. Behind Him was a portrait of

Dakshinamurthi. As the man sat and waited, both

Bhagavan and the portrait of Dakshinamurthi started to

glow and dissapeared. After a while there forms could

be seen in lightning like light. Presently the full

area blazed with an unbearable light. The man could

not bear it no longer and hurriedly left the place. He

did not dare to return for a full month. After that he

came to Bhagavan who was sitting quitely as usual, and

told Him that this was the question he had asked Him

and this was the experience he had and asked Him to

explain it.

Bhagavan was quiet for a while and said, "You asked to

see my true form and you saw the dissappearance of the

body, for I am truly formless. The rest of the

experience maybe due to the impressions made in your

mind from reading the Bhagavad Gita ".

 

Therefore though the experience of this person was of

a high nature, his intellectual understanding clouded

the true understanding.

 

Sincerely,

Anand

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

--- Anand Natarajan wrote:

>

> [...]

>

> Therefore though the experience of this person

> was of

> a high nature, his intellectual understanding

> clouded

> the true understanding.

>

 

yes, and the same should be emphasized for all

riddles of philosophy we attempt to resolve and

then reach some conclusion, get satisfied and settle

upon [such developed viewpoin].. as in

the nature of the argument of free will vs fate.

 

to my view it's ok to do all this

speculating...however for sheer entertainment!

settling on any perspective otherwise becomes a trap.

the fact also is, for every logical pursuit

and conclusion derived therefrom, the opposite can

be delineated and confidently setlled upon--at

least for the deep philosophical questions.

(for example, even from the relative vyavaharika,

the notion depending on the [dvaitic] notion of

a separative ego, that free will is an inescapable

*necessity*, can be refuted just as well by the

fact that the siddhi of premonition destroys any

possibility of the unfoldment process of anything

BUT determinism! and this is not merely a concept

but has been documented extensively. i myself

have seen future events come to pass, up to 4

months ahead of time, with *exacting* and intricate

precision. **and yet** a line of logic can also be

propounded that shows relative determinism to

be false since it would delimit the power of God or

isvara.)

 

the whole point is, so long as one maintains the

conscious connection with one's true nature in

brahman (which becomes eventually effortless), any

involvements with speculative ideologies as well as,

incidentally, involving with the ways of maya

(being the inherent projection of brahman [viz. the

leela]) are not only perfectly natural, but more

importantly what we (brahman) desired all along.

thus--as alluded to in ram chandran's recent posting

from the indian tribeca in chennai--there

*is* meaning in the manifestation of Life. it is

NOT unreal. only our socially habit-formed

isolated/separative ideas that given things exist

*apart* from brahman is where the unreal is born.

 

OM shaanthi

 

 

 

 

 

 

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