Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 namaste. Last night, I attended a discourse by swamini saralananda of ArSha vidya gurukulam on "Discovering God without faith". She has presented the theme beautifully, starting of with the building blocks of creation - the five elemtes and the three energies (of destruction, of creation and of sustenance) arising out of the three guNAs - leading on to finally what God is: God is not infalliable, but what is infalliable is God. The universe governed by certain natural laws which are inviolable, which we take for granted and on which we depend is what is God. I will not be able to do justice in praphrasing her discourse, but it is certainly a spell-binding lecture. Now, following that discourse, I was thinking about it. In my professional life, I dabble with Earth's magnetism and its origin. >From that background, I tried to visualize the similarities of creation and of convection cells in the following way: A convection cell pattern appears in a boiling soup or in the fluid core of the earth. The convection cell pattern is set up due to thermal gradients - the material rises up on the rising limb of the convection cell, gets cooled, and then falls through the descending limb of the convection cell. Just like the creation, sustenance and destruction are cyclic processes repeating endlessly, the material of the earth's fluid outer core or the material of a boiling soup continuously goes through a cyclic process. The driving force for this convection cell pattern is the thermal gradient, the *difference* in temperature in the medium. Extending this to creation, sustenance and destruction (roles of brahma, vishNu and maheshwara), we see the creation only if there is a *gradient* (or admixture) in our guNA-s. If there weren't, there is no creation. The ajAta of GauDapAda is the natural state. I admit my thoughts are half-baked and can be shot down. But I hope this gives material for people to ponder that what we see as creation and what we see as jagat is an admixture of our guNA-s only and nothing else. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 advaitin , Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > A convection cell pattern appears in a boiling soup or in the fluid > core of the earth. The convection cell pattern is set up due to > thermal gradients - the material rises up on the rising limb of the > convection cell, gets cooled, and then falls through the descending > limb of the convection cell. Just like the creation, sustenance and > destruction are cyclic processes repeating endlessly, the material > of the earth's fluid outer core or the material of a boiling soup > continuously goes through a cyclic process. The driving force for > this convection cell pattern is the thermal gradient, the > *difference* in temperature in the medium. > > Extending this to creation, sustenance and destruction (roles of > brahma, vishNu and maheshwara), we see the creation only if there > is a *gradient* (or admixture) in our guNA-s. If there weren't, > there is no creation. The ajAta of GauDapAda is the natural state. > > I admit my thoughts are half-baked and can be shot down. But I hope > this gives material for people to ponder that what we see as creation > and what we see as jagat is an admixture of our guNA-s only and > nothing else. > Thermal gradients are not enough to start the convection cell. A force like gravity must also be present. In the absence of gravity natural convection will not happen. As you know, gravity is such a eluding force. Similarly guNa-s alone are NOT enough. An intelligent force, God, is behind the creation, etc. and God is a necessary requirement. The role of God in this process is denied by the school of samkhya. If I am not mistaken, in trishati shankara refutes this idea in few places. I also think if guNa-s themselves do it, they become a second principle besides brahman. Like prakR^iti and puruSha. My 2c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Ravi Mayavaram wrote: > [...] > > Similarly guNa-s alone are NOT enough. An intelligent force, God, is > behind the creation, etc. and God is a necessary requirement. > Yes, the swamini mentioned about efficient intelligence which has to be there for the creation to take place. As I mentioned before, I might not have paraphrased the swamini's presentation correctly. > [...] Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Namaste, Even if we assume that jagat is an admixture of our guNAs only, the guNAs are ultimately caused by the intelligence. An example may be necessary to explain the complexity. When we listen music from a violin, we need the 'violin,' 'a performer' and the invisible intelligence! It is this invisible 'intelligence' which is responsible for the listening, playing and the recognition of the violin, performer and the music! regards, Ram Chandran > advaitin , Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: >........ > > and what we see as jagat is an admixture of our guNA-s only and > > nothing else. > > In advaitin , " Ravi Mayavaram" wrote: > ..... > Similarly guNa-s alone are NOT enough. An intelligent force, God, is > behind the creation, etc. and God is a necessary requirement. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 God or Sri Krishna is Jagadguru.This creation is the University we are privileged to be admitted to. Maya,gunaas,ego,mind,body, actions,reactions,desires,ignorance,knowledge etc are the educational tools of God including time and space ,infact all that we see,hear and feel .These are all wonderfully and meticulously designed by the Supreme Teacher to teach us marvellous lessons for our spiritual growth unto God Realization! Bhagawan Sri Krishna tells: Knowledge and ignorance are both My Powers.These are installed in all bodies by My Maya!.The former releases from Bondage.The latter puts into Bondage. Jiva who is only My Amsa (child),gets bound by Avidya or ignorance which has no beginning, and by knowledge becomes free! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2001 Report Share Posted January 13, 2001 Gummuluru Murthy wrote: > > Extending this to creation, sustenance and destruction (roles of > brahma, vishNu and maheshwara), we see the creation only if there > is a *gradient* (or admixture) in our guNA-s. If there weren't, > there is no creation. The ajAta of GauDapAda is the natural state. > (here's perhaps a lesson for all of us, beginning with me, in semantics :-) i agree with your premise (notwithstanding what we all agree has at its base the Substratum Self consciousness..), however, i disagree with the last thought that ajata is the natural state: implying that when the gunas are in total balance nothing is 'phenomenalized' and this [tantamount to being the] pralaya sthithi (nirguna state or phase) of brahma(m) is the natural state, is misleading, imo. the natural state is, or at least permanently underlies, to my understanding, whatever is going on in *any* phase or state of brahma(m), **as** ajata: which is the base of Being or satchidananda. and this is infact what we're charged with connecting to in *full awareness*, whether within or beyond all 'times in space.' my whole point is in the latter idea: whether in or out of manifestation, the ajata reigns at the base of all. so, the natural state is always here now. is this not what advaita is teaching us? although i maintain it's all intrinsically Mystery, if i'm pushed to reason it out, here's what i'd say re advaitam: advaita is the seamless fusion between the fleeting change of the saguna Effect and its permanent changeless nirguna Cause. it's quite humorous and yet entertaining attempting to talk about things that so clearly and utterly thoroughly defy relative understanding. :-) the Mind is God's ultimate adventure! namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2001 Report Share Posted January 13, 2001 Namaste, I don't know about its being the ultimate adventure! Mind is mentioned as one of the vibhuuti-s [glories] in Gita [X:22]: ....indriyaaNaaM manaH cha asmi ..... In Sri Ramakrishna's words: "EVERTHING in the world may be favorable to you, but if the Mind is not, you can't find THAT!" In Sri Ramana's words [upadeshasara:10]: hR^itsthale manaH svasthataa . kriyaa-bhakti-yoga-bodhaaH cha nischitam.h . The Mind absorbed in the Heart [spiritual] is the certain fulfilment of Action, Devotion, Meditation, and Enlightenment. And finally, Arjuna has to admit [Gita X:15]: svayam eva aatmanaa aatmaana.n vettha tvam purushhottama . Oh! The Supreme One! Only you know Your Self by Your Self!! Regards, s. advaitin , f maiello <egodust@d...> wrote: > Gummuluru Murthy wrote: > it's quite humorous and yet entertaining attempting to talk > about things that so clearly and utterly thoroughly defy > relative understanding. :-) > > the Mind is God's ultimate adventure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2001 Report Share Posted January 13, 2001 hariH OM! sundarji- not sure what your point is here. i said, "the mind is God's ultimate adventure," referring to the mahamahat (universal mind), of which we as jivatman-s are endowed with a holographic representation thereof. thing is, nothing in the universe happens without this mind (brahman's projection). and what we have come to understand is that it (the mind) can be our greatest ally or enemy, depending on whether we are its master or victim. and this is what the whole purpose of the jnanamarg is about. manonasa to me involves *specifically* destroying the philosophical Mind, while preserving its practical counterpart. as ramakrishna said, "if the Mind is not favorable," signifies the turmoil involved in its modality of victimizing one through the judgments, categorizations, comparisons, etc inhering in the philosophical Mind. this is what has to be conquered and rendered benign. and it doesn't imply we shouldn't philosophize...rather we shouldn't take our philosophical conclusions to heart! namaskaar, frank sunder hattangadi wrote: > > Namaste, > > I don't know about its being the ultimate adventure! Mind is > mentioned as one of the vibhuuti-s [glories] in Gita [X:22]: > > ...indriyaaNaaM manaH cha asmi ..... > > In Sri Ramakrishna's words: "EVERTHING in the world may be favorable > to you, but if the Mind is not, you can't find THAT!" > > In Sri Ramana's words [upadeshasara:10]: > > hR^itsthale manaH svasthataa . > kriyaa-bhakti-yoga-bodhaaH cha nischitam.h . > > The Mind absorbed in the Heart [spiritual] is the certain fulfilment > of Action, Devotion, Meditation, and Enlightenment. > > And finally, Arjuna has to admit [Gita X:15]: > > svayam eva aatmanaa aatmaana.n vettha tvam purushhottama . > > Oh! The Supreme One! Only you know Your Self by Your Self!! > > Regards, > > s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2001 Report Share Posted January 13, 2001 Namste Frank-ji, No argument at all! The point was mind is just a beginning, and not ultimate, in the adventure of the search for the Self. Regards, s. advaitin , f maiello <egodust@d...> wrote: > hariH OM! sundarji- > > not sure what your point is here. > > i said, "the mind is God's ultimate adventure," referring to > the mahamahat (universal mind), of which we as jivatman-s are > endowed with a holographic representation thereof. thing is, > nothing in the universe happens without this mind (brahman's > projection). > > and what we have come to understand is that it (the mind) can > be our greatest ally or enemy, depending on whether we are its > master or victim. and this is what the whole purpose of the > jnanamarg is about. manonasa to me involves *specifically* > destroying the philosophical Mind, while preserving its > practical counterpart. as ramakrishna said, "if the Mind is > not favorable," signifies the turmoil involved in its modality > of victimizing one through the judgments, categorizations, > comparisons, etc inhering in the philosophical Mind. this is > what has to be conquered and rendered benign. and it doesn't > imply we shouldn't philosophize...rather we shouldn't take our > philosophical conclusions to heart! > > namaskaar, > frank > > sunder hattangadi wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > I don't know about its being the ultimate adventure! Mind is > > mentioned as one of the vibhuuti-s [glories] in Gita [X:22]: > > > > ...indriyaaNaaM manaH cha asmi ..... > > > > In Sri Ramakrishna's words: "EVERTHING in the world may be favorable > > to you, but if the Mind is not, you can't find THAT!" > > > > In Sri Ramana's words [upadeshasara:10]: > > > > hR^itsthale manaH svasthataa . > > kriyaa-bhakti-yoga-bodhaaH cha nischitam.h . > > > > The Mind absorbed in the Heart [spiritual] is the certain fulfilment > > of Action, Devotion, Meditation, and Enlightenment. > > > > And finally, Arjuna has to admit [Gita X:15]: > > > > svayam eva aatmanaa aatmaana.n vettha tvam purushhottama . > > > > Oh! The Supreme One! Only you know Your Self by Your Self!! > > > > Regards, > > > > s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2001 Report Share Posted January 13, 2001 sunder hattangadi wrote: > > Namste Frank-ji, > > No argument at all! The point was mind is just a beginning, > and not ultimate, in the adventure of the search for the Self. > > Regards, > > s. oh yes, i fully agree here! OM shaanthi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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