removing a thorn with a thorn

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

Quite often, in vedAntic terminology, we hear of

using a thorn to remove a thorn and then to throw

both of them. We see this often in writings of

Ramakrishna's teachings. What is this thorn removing

the thorn? I was contemplating on this for the past

few days. Is it similar to the example of using a

pole vault to clear the hurdle and then throw the

pole out? Is it looking to advaita as a tool and

then leave out the philosophy altogether 'after'

attaining brahman?

 

While such may be possible candidates, it occurs

to me that may be the best way to look at this

(using a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw

the two thorns out) is probably use the mind and

the intellect (one thorn) to remove avidyA (the

other thorn) and then discard (or see both of

them automatically fall) both of them on

realization.

 

Any insights into this terminology are appreciated.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

OM

Pranam

"You Rise By Which You Fall" is the basis of Tantra

Shastra, which predates Vedanta.

Essays in Life and Eternity

by

Swami Krishnananda

General Secretary, The Divine Life Society

Sivananda Ashram, Rishikesh, India

TANTRA SADHANA

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/life/life_25.html

Pranam

OM

 

> Shree Gummaluru Murthy wrote:

>

>

> >namaste.

> >

> >Quite often, in vedAntic terminology, we hear of

> >using a thorn to remove a thorn and then to throw

> >both of them. We see this often in writings of

> >Ramakrishna's teachings. What is this thorn removing

> >the thorn? I was contemplating on this for the past

> >few days. Is it similar to the example of using a

> >pole vault to clear the hurdle and then throw the

> >pole out? Is it looking to advaita as a tool and

> >then leave out the philosophy altogether 'after'

> >attaining brahman?

> >

> >While such may be possible candidates, it occurs

> >to me that may be the best way to look at this

> >(using a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw

> >the two thorns out) is probably use the mind and

> >the intellect (one thorn) to remove avidyA (the

> >other thorn) and then discard (or see both of

> >them automatically fall) both of them on

> >realization.

> >

> >Any insights into this terminology are appreciated.

> >

> >

> >Regards

> >Gummuluru Murthy

> >----------------------

>

> This concept became more of importance with JK's

criticism of

> traditions, religions or schools of philosophy. But

Shankara

> anticipated this kind of criticisms and emphasized in his

Atma bodha

> text-

> krR^itvaa j~naanam swayam nasyat|

> jalam kaTakareNu vat||

>

> having done its job the knowledge disappears by itself

just as kaTaka

> nut powder that is used in cleaning the water.

>

> They used to add the kaTakanut powder in and it forms a

thin layer

> due to its surface tension and absorbs water and becomes

heavy. As it

> sinks down it collects all the impurities in the water

and in the end

> the water is free from both the original dirt and the

added kaTaka

> powder.

>

> JK used to argue about the conditioning of the mind.

Hence according

> to him any process only provides another conditioning but

does not

> free the mind from the conditioning. In stead of iron

shackles we

> have not golden shackles - I am Hindu, I am vedantin, I

am a

> believer etc are all part of reconditioning the mind

according to him

> - only solution to the problem is to recognize the

problem or be

> aware of the conditioning of the mind. That takes the

mind away from

> conditioning. Sounds right and simple. - But it requires

full

> detachment. That detachement involves a process.

>

> It is true the realization is not a process. but

purification of

> the mind involves process - that is where the discussion

of free will

> and sadhana comes into picture too in some form. The

logic is

> simple. Impurity was acquired by a process, and

therefore the

> purification of the mind also involves some process or

saadhana.

> j~naana yoga that involves shravaNam, mananam, and

nidhidhyaasanam

> etc involves contemplation and inquiry which is an action

at the

> level of mind and intellect. Hence j~naanam while

removing the

> aj~naanam, both gets lost leaving the pure state as

usual, since one

> is fundamentally pure and impurities are only

superimpositions. These

> superimpositions are removed by another superimposition -

this is

> within the vyavahaara level. Hence the analogy of thorn

removing

> thorn or detergent used to clean the plate or pole vault

etc.

>

> The comments of JK are not new. Even in the criticism of

advaita

> vedanta by Shree Ramanuja and Shree Madhva - there was a

question

> raised about the veda-pramaNa - The criticism goes like

this - If

> the world is unreal, the Veda-s also should be unreal

like the world.

> Hence the teaching of the Veda-s is unreal in which case

they are not

> valid means of knowledge or pramaaNa. Hence Vedanta

vichaara cannot

> take one to the state of Brahman which alone is real.

Therefore Veda

> cannot be a pramaaNa for realization of Brahman. In that

sense they

> put advaita teaching in par with Buddhism and Shankara is

called

> prachchanna Bauddha or disguised Buddhist.

>

> Shankara and post -Shankara teachers answer the objection

that even

> if Veda-s are not as real as Brahman, vedanta can lead to

the

> realization like a dreamer awaken by the roaring of the

tiger in the

> dream. The tiger and the roaring are as unreal as the

rest of the

> dream, according to the waker, yet they can awaken the

dreamer from

> his dream to realize his real status as a waker.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

> --

> K. Sadananda

> Code 6323

> Naval Research Laboratory

> Washington D.C. 20375

> Voice (202)767-2117

> Fax:(202)767-2623

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

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Shree Gummaluru Murthy wrote:

 

>namaste.

>

>Quite often, in vedAntic terminology, we hear of

>using a thorn to remove a thorn and then to throw

>both of them. We see this often in writings of

>Ramakrishna's teachings. What is this thorn removing

>the thorn? I was contemplating on this for the past

>few days. Is it similar to the example of using a

>pole vault to clear the hurdle and then throw the

>pole out? Is it looking to advaita as a tool and

>then leave out the philosophy altogether 'after'

>attaining brahman?

>

>While such may be possible candidates, it occurs

>to me that may be the best way to look at this

>(using a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw

>the two thorns out) is probably use the mind and

>the intellect (one thorn) to remove avidyA (the

>other thorn) and then discard (or see both of

>them automatically fall) both of them on

>realization.

>

>Any insights into this terminology are appreciated.

>

>

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

>----------------------

 

This concept became more of importance with JK's criticism of

traditions, religions or schools of philosophy. But Shankara

anticipated this kind of criticisms and emphasized in his Atma bodha

text-

krR^itvaa j~naanam swayam nasyat|

jalam kaTakareNu vat||

 

having done its job the knowledge disappears by itself just as kaTaka

nut powder that is used in cleaning the water.

 

They used to add the kaTakanut powder in and it forms a thin layer

due to its surface tension and absorbs water and becomes heavy. As it

sinks down it collects all the impurities in the water and in the end

the water is free from both the original dirt and the added kaTaka

powder.

 

JK used to argue about the conditioning of the mind. Hence according

to him any process only provides another conditioning but does not

free the mind from the conditioning. In stead of iron shackles we

have not golden shackles - I am Hindu, I am vedantin, I am a

believer etc are all part of reconditioning the mind according to him

- only solution to the problem is to recognize the problem or be

aware of the conditioning of the mind. That takes the mind away from

conditioning. Sounds right and simple. - But it requires full

detachment. That detachement involves a process.

 

It is true the realization is not a process. but purification of

the mind involves process - that is where the discussion of free will

and sadhana comes into picture too in some form. The logic is

simple. Impurity was acquired by a process, and therefore the

purification of the mind also involves some process or saadhana.

j~naana yoga that involves shravaNam, mananam, and nidhidhyaasanam

etc involves contemplation and inquiry which is an action at the

level of mind and intellect. Hence j~naanam while removing the

aj~naanam, both gets lost leaving the pure state as usual, since one

is fundamentally pure and impurities are only superimpositions. These

superimpositions are removed by another superimposition - this is

within the vyavahaara level. Hence the analogy of thorn removing

thorn or detergent used to clean the plate or pole vault etc.

 

The comments of JK are not new. Even in the criticism of advaita

vedanta by Shree Ramanuja and Shree Madhva - there was a question

raised about the veda-pramaNa - The criticism goes like this - If

the world is unreal, the Veda-s also should be unreal like the world.

Hence the teaching of the Veda-s is unreal in which case they are not

valid means of knowledge or pramaaNa. Hence Vedanta vichaara cannot

take one to the state of Brahman which alone is real. Therefore Veda

cannot be a pramaaNa for realization of Brahman. In that sense they

put advaita teaching in par with Buddhism and Shankara is called

prachchanna Bauddha or disguised Buddhist.

 

Shankara and post -Shankara teachers answer the objection that even

if Veda-s are not as real as Brahman, vedanta can lead to the

realization like a dreamer awaken by the roaring of the tiger in the

dream. The tiger and the roaring are as unreal as the rest of the

dream, according to the waker, yet they can awaken the dreamer from

his dream to realize his real status as a waker.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Sri Sadanandaji wrote:

 

<example of kaTaka reNuvat> (I am not reproducing the text here).

 

I would like to amplify the comparison of "thorn with thorn" and

"kaTaka-reNuvat" (with your kind permission):

 

Sri Shankara at that point where you mentioned (Atmabodha) was highlighting

the opposite nature of jnAna and avidyA. In the case of kaTaka and dirt

they have opposite properties. kaTaka after absorbing water "settles" down.

Dirt is always in suspension and in continuous motion.

 

That is why it becomes a fit example of vidyA removing avidyA. So kaTaka

should not treated as "adding more dirt to remove existing dirt", but as

adding something with an opposite property to removing something with

undesirable property. If "adding more dirt to remove existing dirt" is the

logic then it is tantamount to saying "add more avidyA to remove avidyA"

which is not possible. Only jnAna can remove avidyA (tejastimira sanghavat

- like light eliminates darkness) - more darkness cannot eliminate darkness,

only light can.

 

Conclusion 1:

==============

So in that sense kaTaka and dirt have opposite properties. The second thorn

has behind it the intent of removing the first and hence opposite to the

first.

 

But at the same time, the dirt suspended in water cannot be removed by an

agent that is not within water. So kaTaka has to be in water to sediment

the dirt in water. So too for the jIva that is subjected to avidyA, the

agent of jnAna has to be part of his avidyA (within). It cannot be outside

of the jIva's avidyA and still bring jnAna. Just as a dreamer cannot be

made aware of his dream (while in the dream) by a means outside the dream.

The agency that wakes him up should be within the dream. If the dreamer

knows of an agent outside the dream while in the dream then he is really not

dreaming.

 

Conclusion 2:

=============

Thus the object of the undesirable property (dirt, thorn1) and the agent of

a desirable property (opposite to dirt, thorn1 ie., kaTaka and thorn2), both

have to belong to the same class (medium). In the case of kaTaka it has to

act in water. In the case of thorn2 it has to have the same piercing

property of thorn1.

 

Conclusion 3:

=============

Also, kaTaka distributed in water is not the end result. The end result is

neither dirt nor kaTaka, but clear water. So kaTaka is an agent for

clearing water and not clear water itself. So also, thorn2 (with the intent

of removing thorn1) is not the end result. Absence of both is the end

result. So thorn2 is the agent of an end result. So also avidyA and the

agent of jnAna are opposite to each other. Also please note that I have

refered to avidyA as it is, but while talking about jnAna its opposite, I

have referred to only the agent of jnAna. I am not talking of agent of

avidyA because that would cause us to investigate the nature of avidyA which

is anAdi. And while refering to jnAna, I am refering to the agent of jnAna

because Brahman cannot have opposites. Only the agent of jnAna is part of

avidyA. kaTaka acts in water but is not the end result.

 

Conclusion 4 (using 1, 2 and 3):

================================

When 2 objects one with an undesirable property and the other a cause/agent

of a desirable property, belonging to the same class but with opposite

properties come together, one annihilates the other. Then water is clear -

neither remain.

 

Thus "I am a jIva...limited...individual etc" is a vR^tti and "aham

brahmAsmi" is also a vR^tti. The first is avidyA, the second is the agent

of jnAna. Both have opposite properties. But both belong to the same class

namely "chitta vR^tti". Since they are equal opposites "aham brahmAsmi"

annihilates "I am jIva (only)". Then neither remain.

 

Thus the thorn "I am jIva (only)" is removed by the thorn "aham brahmAsmi"

and not by any other means.

 

I have presented only my understanding. I am amenable to corrections if I

am wrong.

 

Regards.

S. V. Subrahmanian.

_______________

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Sri Ramana Maharshi's saying about the elephant

dreaming about the lion is similar to this in my view.

 

The elephant dreams about a ferocious lion. In its

terror it wakes up and sees itself, as it is. Here the

dream (or nightmare) is the thorn. The lion is the

other thorn. One thorn was used to get rid of the

other thorn and in the end both thorns were found to

be unreal.

 

This can also relate to the Guru and disciple. The

basic principle is however the same, you need a dream

device to get rid of the dream.

 

Regards,

Anand

 

 

--- gummuluru murthy <gmurthy_99 wrote:

>

>

> namaste.

>

> Quite often, in vedAntic terminology, we hear of

> using a thorn to remove a thorn and then to throw

> both of them. We see this often in writings of

> Ramakrishna's teachings. What is this thorn

> removing

> the thorn? I was contemplating on this for the past

> few days. Is it similar to the example of using a

> pole vault to clear the hurdle and then throw the

> pole out? Is it looking to advaita as a tool and

> then leave out the philosophy altogether 'after'

> attaining brahman?

>

> While such may be possible candidates, it occurs

> to me that may be the best way to look at this

> (using a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw

> the two thorns out) is probably use the mind and

> the intellect (one thorn) to remove avidyA (the

> other thorn) and then discard (or see both of

> them automatically fall) both of them on

> realization.

>

> Any insights into this terminology are appreciated.

>

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

advaitin , gummuluru murthy <gmurthy_99> wrote:

>

>

> namaste.

>

> Quite often, in vedAntic terminology, we hear of

> using a thorn to remove a thorn and then to throw

> both of them. We see this often in writings of

> Ramakrishna's teachings. What is this thorn removing

> the thorn? I was contemplating on this for the past

> few days. Is it similar to the example of using a

> pole vault to clear the hurdle and then throw the

> pole out? Is it looking to advaita as a tool and

> then leave out the philosophy altogether 'after'

> attaining brahman?

 

When you say leave behind, you see duality. Then the state is not

non-dual brahman. In a non-dual state, such distinctions like

advaita-vedAnta is the path I needed till I reached this state and I

no longer need it, will not arise.

>

> While such may be possible candidates, it occurs

> to me that may be the best way to look at this

> (using a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw

> the two thorns out) is probably use the mind and

> the intellect (one thorn) to remove avidyA (the

> other thorn) and then discard (or see both of

> them automatically fall) both of them on

> realization.

 

Fall from whom and fall where. Who discards or sees the non-necessity

of a path, sure he is in duality.

 

It is more like a particle and anti-particle annihilating each other,

leaving no trace whatsoever but pure energy behind. When avidyA ceases

to exist, brahman alone shines. From that stand point, avidyA never

existed and never a tool was required to remove it, which had to be

discarded later. Probably, particle- antiparticle example is also

flawed. I am sure it is, because, state of non-duality is beyond of

the grasp of mind and words.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

There ia a 'sweeter' analogy of Guru and Disciple, by Saint

Tukaram.

 

He said, 'the Guru is like a philosopher's stone which can turn

a base metal into gold; and yet much more, for he changes the

disciple himself into a philosopher's stone!'

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

advaitin , Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo>

wrote:

>

> This can also relate to the Guru and disciple. The

> basic principle is however the same, you need a dream

> device to get rid of the dream.

>

> Regards,

> Anand

>

>

> --- gummuluru murthy <gmurthy_99> wrote:

/

[Guest guest]

I had sent ths mail earlier and it never showed up. I am trying again.

 

Sri Sadanandaji wrote: (I am not reproducing the text here).

 

I would like to amplify the comparison of "thorn with thorn" and

"kaTaka-reNuvat" (with your kind permission):

 

Observation 1 (jnAna is the opposite of avidyA):

=================================================

Sri Shankara at that point where you mentioned (Atmabodha) was highlighting

the opposite nature of jnAna and avidyA. In the case of kaTaka and dirt they

have opposite properties. kaTaka after absorbing water "settles" down and

clears the water. Dirt is always in suspension and in continuous motion and

makes the water turbid.

 

That is why it becomes a fit example of jnAna opposing avidyA. So kaTaka

should not treated as "adding more dirt to remove existing dirt", but as

adding something with "produces" an opposite property ie., clarity. If

"adding more dirt to remove existing dirt" is the logic then it is

tantamount to saying "add more avidyA to remove avidyA" which is not

possible. Only jnAna can remove avidyA (tejastimira sanghavat - like light

eliminates darkness) - more darkness cannot eliminate darkness, only light

can.

 

So in that sense the property produced by kaTaka is the opposite of dirt.

The second thorn has behind it the intent of removing the first and hence

opposite to the first.

 

Observation 2 (agent of jnAna is within avidyA):

================================================

But at the same time, the dirt suspended in water cannot be removed by an

agent that is not within water. So kaTaka has to be in water to sediment the

dirt in water. So too for the jIva that is subjected to avidyA, the "agent

of jnAna" has to be part of his avidyA (within). It cannot be outside of the

jIva's avidyA and still bring jnAna. Just as a dreamer cannot be made aware

of his dream (while in the dream) by a means outside the dream. The agency

that wakes him up should be within the dream. If the dreamer knows of an

agent outside the dream while in the dream then he is really not dreaming.

 

Thus the object of the undesirable property (dirt, thorn1) and the agent of

a desirable property (opposite to dirt, thorn1 ie., kaTaka and thorn2), both

have to belong to the same class (medium) or field of operation. In the case

of kaTaka it has to act in water. In the case of thorn2 it has to have the

same piercing property of thorn1.

 

Observation 3 (agent of jnAna only):

====================================

Also, kaTaka distributed in water is not the end result. The end result is

neither dirt nor kaTaka, but clear water. So kaTaka is an agent for clearing

water and not clear water itself. So also, thorn2 (with the intent of

removing thorn1) is not the end result. Absence of both is the end result.

So thorn2 is the agent of an end result. Also please note that I have

refered to avidyA as it is, but while talking about jnAna its opposite, I

have referred to only the agent of jnAna. I am not talking of agent of

avidyA because that would cause us to investigate the nature of avidyA which

is anAdi. And while refering to jnAna, I am refering to the agent of jnAna

because jnAna and avidyA cannot exist together. If the agent of jnAna is

part of avidyA then even the "agent of jnAna" and jnAna also cannot exist

together. Clear and turbid water cannot exist together. kaTaka is also not

clear water.

kaTaka also has to settle down.

 

Conclusion (using 1, 2 and 3):

================================

When 2 objects one with an undesirable property and the other a cause/agent

of a desirable property, belonging to the same class, field of operation but

with opposite properties come together, one annihilates the other. Then

water is clear - neither remain.

 

Thus "I am a jIva...limited...individual etc" is a vR^tti and "aham

brahmAsmi" is also a vR^tti. The first is avidyA, the second is the agent of

jnAna. Both have opposite properties. But both belong to the same class or

field of operation namely "chitta vR^tti". Since both are vR^tti's they are

part of avidyA. Since they are equal opposites "aham brahmAsmi" annihilates

"I am jIva (only)". Then neither remain.

 

Thus the thorn "I am jIva (only)" is removed by the thorn "aham brahmAsmi"

and then both extinguish leaving. When stretching the example of kaTaka too

long one wonders, is there a residue left by this agent of jnAna like this

sediment. To understand better, one should think of the example of a knot

in a rope. Knotted rope = avidyA. Removing the knot = agent of jnAna.

Knot-free rope = jnAna.

 

What happens to the knot when the rope is untied (of the knot) that is what

happens to avidyA and "agent of jnAna".

 

I have presented only my understanding. I am amenable to corrections if I am

wrong.

 

Regards.

S. V. Subrahmanian.

_______________

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[Guest guest]

Sri Raviji wrote:

 

It is more like a particle and anti-particle annihilating each other,

leaving no trace whatsoever but pure energy behind. When avidyA ceases

 

Response:

 

"pure energy" will require a source. It implies distribution which

necessitates gradients etc. It cannot exist on its own. Only pure

consciousness can exist of its own.

 

Regards.

S. V. Subrahmanian.

_______________

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

As long as you are open enough to throw away both the thorns it is

fine. The problem comes when you are too dogmatic to throw away the

second thorn. Then the thorn which came to remove the first thorn

becomes another thorn to be removed. This is the danger which JK is

talking about. To realize the Truth you should transcend the concept

of Advaita also. All said and done, even Advaita is only a philosophy

- a model of Truth, which helps you to realize the Truth. Advaita might

be close to Truth, but not the Truth. Truth cannot be conceived by the

intellect nor be perceived, dreamed not imagined by the mind. As long

as you understand that Advaita and other philosophies and sadanas are

means to the End, it is fine.

 

With regards,

Gomu.

 

--

-----------------------------

Email: gomu

Phone(Off): +91 44 4466448, 4466449

Phone(Res): +91 44 8270104

Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/gokulmuthu/

-----------------------------

It is better to wear out than to rust out. - Swami Vivekananda

-----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>Hi,

>

> As long as you are open enough to throw away both the thorns it is

>fine. The problem comes when you are too dogmatic to throw away the

>second thorn. Then the thorn which came to remove the first thorn

>becomes another thorn to be removed. This is the danger which JK is

>talking about. To realize the Truth you should transcend the concept

>of Advaita also. All said and done, even Advaita is only a philosophy

>- a model of Truth, which helps you to realize the Truth. Advaita might

be close to Truth, but not the Truth.

> Truth cannot be conceived by the

>intellect nor be perceived, dreamed not imagined by the mind. As long

>as you understand that Advaita and other philosophies and sadanas are

>means to the End, it is fine.

>

>With regards,

>Gomu.

 

Shree Gokulmuthu

 

Greetings and thanks for your input to the topic. Without going into

the detailed discussion of JK's actual teching versus how he came

across in his teachings, I would like to point out another aspect.

Advaita is not a philosophy or -ism or sadhana or a process. It is

the truth itself. Any sadhana involves dwaita. Hence it is not the

means to an end but end itself. It is not a model - but emphasizes

the one who is making the model or analyzing the models. 'analyze

the analyst' says Ramana. As Shree T.P. Mahadevan put it - advaita

or non-dualism, the -non- applies not only to duality but to ism as

well.

 

What you are referring to is the teaching of advaita, including

Veda, which is different from advaita itself. I am sure that is what

you have implied, but I just want to point out. True, a thorn is

required to remove a thorn and if the second thorn gets stuck in the

foot. along with the thorn, it only points to the fact that one needs

to have proper skill or intelligence to make sure the second thorn is

only a tool remove the first thorn and not for it to become another

thorn. Your caution is well taken and what you say happens very well

too where people gets emotionally attached and become fanatics about

Shankara advaita or some other advaita and without realizing, what is

the essence of the truth that is emphasized in these teachings. This

we have seen even in these mail lists. But the fact of the mater is

that sadhana is required for purification process and not to realize

the adviatic state, since one is already that one is trying to reach,

and that is what is advaita teaching.

That is the essence of JK's teachinig too that 'truth is the pathless

land'. But paths are not for truth, but to remove all the thorns

that are stuck which obstruct the mind to see the truth as the truth.

Paths are for purification of the mind. If the path itself makes the

mind impure, that is where your caution is very important. Hence it

is said in the kaThopanishhad - kshurasya dhaara nishitaa duratyayaa

durgam pathanaat kavayo vadanti - It is a razor-edge path and one has

to be very careful - say the wise. Sadhana catushhTayam that

Shankara emphasizes is for the purification of the mind which is a

pre-requisite to free the mind from pre-conditioning. Hence it is

not a conditioning process but process of deterging the dirt out.

True we do not want the detergent left on the plate either. Hence

discrimination or viveka which involves nitya- anitya vastu vichaar

is emphasized as part of the requirement of saadhana chatushhTayam

itself. True vedanta teaching or knowledge gets removed by itself as

the Atmabodha sloka that quoted before.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

 

K. Sadananda [sada]

Hence it is not a conditioning process but process of deterging the dirt

out.

True we do not want the detergent left on the plate either. Hence

discrimination or viveka which involves nitya- anitya vastu vichaar

is emphasized as part of the requirement of saadhana chatushhTayam

itself. True vedanta teaching or knowledge gets removed by itself as

the Atmabodha sloka that quoted before.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

Well put Sadaji. The True Vedanta Teaching leaves no trace and disappears

into the Self. Have you heard of the example of Castor oil being used to

describe the highest teaching? When Castor oil is taken as a laxative for

the problem of constipation, one need not worry about how the castor oil

will come out after the purpose has been accomplished.

 

Everything goes!

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

OM

Pranam

 

Sri Ramakrishna Parmahansa showed Sri Kali to Sri Swami

Vivekananda in stones and in temple pillars, as he is the

greatest worshipper of Kali. Sri Ramakrishna Parmahansa

also broke the image of Sri Kali with a sword, saying that

that was an attachment too.

This sort or renunciation wherein which renunciation itself

is renounced, is perhaps the pinnacle of Realization. Sri

Swami Sivananda too did this as is beautifully recounted by

Sri Swami Venkatesanandaji in his booklet.

Pranam

OM

 

> Hari Om!

>

> A well known Vedantic prescription to get rid of 'all

desires' is the

> 'desire to Love Him' This desire will dissolve all the

desires! To get

> rid of all 'attachments' is develop an 'attachment to

Him.'

>

> regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> advaitin , "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...>

wrote:

>

> > The True Vedanta Teaching leaves no trace and disappears

> > into the Self. Have you heard of the example of

> > Castor oil being used to describe the highest teaching?

> > When Castor oil is taken as a laxative for .....

>

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

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Hari Om!

 

A well known Vedantic prescription to get rid of 'all desires' is the

'desire to Love Him' This desire will dissolve all the desires! To get

rid of all 'attachments' is develop an 'attachment to Him.'

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> The True Vedanta Teaching leaves no trace and disappears

> into the Self. Have you heard of the example of

> Castor oil being used to describe the highest teaching?

> When Castor oil is taken as a laxative for .....

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Gita II:59 -

 

vishhayaaH vinivartante niraahaarasya dehinaH .

rasavarja.n rasaH api asya para.n dR^ishhTvaa nivartate ..

 

"Objects withdraw from an abstinent man, but not the taste. On seeing

the Supreme, his taste, too, ceases."

 

To extend Harshaji's analogy, even castor oil will taste like nectar!!

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

advaitin , "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Hari Om!

>

> A well known Vedantic prescription to get rid of 'all desires' is

the

> 'desire to Love Him' This desire will dissolve all the desires! To

get

> rid of all 'attachments' is develop an 'attachment to Him.'

>

> regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> advaitin , "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

>

> > The True Vedanta Teaching leaves no trace and disappears

> > into the Self. Have you heard of the example of

> > Castor oil being used to describe the highest teaching?

> > When Castor oil is taken as a laxative for .....

[Guest guest]

Namaste Subramanian:

 

I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you for a well

organized technical presentation using a compelling logic. The fact

that you are posting this article again implies that you want some

feedback. Let me try to give my feedback on the basis of my

understanding of `thorn with thorn.'

 

First, these discussions pertain to vyavahara level and consequently

both avidyA and vidyA are statements in relative sense. Actually we

can't explain intellectually what we mean by vidyA at the

Paramarthika. The bottom line of these discussions is to illustrate

that we have to go beyond our intellect to understand true VIDYA

(capital to indicate that it is at the absolute level). But we do

need to recognize that we do need to sharpen our intellect to go

beyond the intellect. This is further illustrated by the pole vault

example where we do need a pole to jump and go beyond the top of the

pole. There is a fundamental assumption that from every encounter

with avidyA, we can gain vidyA and get rid of some avidyA.

 

Now let us take the example of `thorn with thorn.' During our

encounter with the first thorn, it pierced through the bottom of the

foot (we did not recognize it due to our ignorance) and we experienced

some pain along with some vidyA. We got the knowledge of the piercing

power of the thorn. After the recognition, we want to use this

knowledge and use the second thorn to get rid of the first thorn. The

focal point is to distinguish between the role of the these two thorns

- first thorn became a menace due to avidyA and the second thorn

became a tool to get rid of the menace and this became possible

because we had an encounter. The main purpose of this example is to

illustrate that our pain and suffering is only due to avidyA

(encounter with the first thorn) and with vidyA, a thorn can become a

vital instrument to get rid of our pain and sufferings.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin , "S. V. Subrahmanian"

 

<svsubrahmanian@h...> wrote:

> Sri Sadanandaji wrote:

>

> <example of kaTaka reNuvat> (I am not reproducing the text here).

>

> I would like to amplify the comparison of "thorn with thorn" and

> "kaTaka-reNuvat" (with your kind permission):

[Guest guest]

:-)

Unfortunately, now a days disciples are more like Iron metal. When they go

near to the magnet (guru) they acquire the magnet qualities, and they

retain them as long as they are in the company of the Magnet. But the

moment they move themselves away, some force (karma) or by their own

freewill, they lose their Magnet qualities and become the same old rusty

iron metal. :-)

 

I remain yours,

Madhava

 

 

 

>

> sunder hattangadi [sunderh]

> Friday, January 19, 2001 2:57 AM

> advaitin

> Re: removing a thorn with a thorn

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> There ia a 'sweeter' analogy of Guru and Disciple, by Saint

> Tukaram.

>

> He said, 'the Guru is like a philosopher's stone which can turn

> a base metal into gold; and yet much more, for he changes the

> disciple himself into a philosopher's stone!'

>

>

> Regards,

>

> s.

> advaitin , Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo>

> wrote:

> >

> > This can also relate to the Guru and disciple. The

> > basic principle is however the same, you need a dream

> > device to get rid of the dream.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Anand

> >

> >

> > --- gummuluru murthy <gmurthy_99> wrote:

> /

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

To make the analogy more 'organic' and 'grace'ful, every fruit

ripens at a different pace!

 

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin , "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@m...>

wrote:

> :-)

> Unfortunately, now a days disciples are more like Iron metal. When

they go

> near to the magnet (guru) they acquire the magnet qualities, and

they

> retain them as long as they are in the company of the Magnet. But

the

> moment they move themselves away, some force (karma) or by their own

> freewill, they lose their Magnet qualities and become the same old

rusty

> iron metal. :-)

>

> I remain yours,

> Madhava

>

>

>

>

> >

> > sunder hattangadi [sunderh@h...]

> > Friday, January 19, 2001 2:57 AM

> > advaitin

> > Re: removing a thorn with a thorn

> >

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > There ia a 'sweeter' analogy of Guru and Disciple, by Saint

> > Tukaram.

> >

> > He said, 'the Guru is like a philosopher's stone which can

turn

> > a base metal into gold; and yet much more, for he changes the

> > disciple himself into a philosopher's stone!'

> >

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > s.

> > advaitin , Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > This can also relate to the Guru and disciple. The

> > > basic principle is however the same, you need a dream

> > > device to get rid of the dream.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Anand

> > >

> > >

> > > --- gummuluru murthy <gmurthy_99> wrote:

> > /

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sri Ram-ji,

 

As I mentioned in my posting "Please disregard", the twin appearance my

posting is only a mistake. It has happened quite often with "advaitin" that

my posting comes one day after it has been sent.

 

I was not craving for attention -

 

Regards.

S. V. Subrahmanian.

 

Namaste Subramanian:

 

I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you for a well

organized technical presentation using a compelling logic. The fact

that you are posting this article again implies that you want some

feedback. Let me try to give my feedback on the basis of my

understanding of `thorn with thorn.'

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Namaste SVSji:

 

The advaitin list is an open list with no moderation and all emails

that reach the get posted. The moderators do not

filter any mails that go to the mail server. There are atleast two

possibilities for the delay: (1) problems at the poster's mail server

(for example in your case hotmail.com mail server) (2)problems at

computer system ( is part of this system).

Neither the list moderators nor the posters can determine the exact

time duration for posting. Free mail servers such as hotmail.com,

, and others sometime get clogged due to volume of mails or

computer failure, etc.

 

Those who want to track down these problems should send a copy of the

posting to another mailing address of their own. Once again the

advaitin moderators want to assure the members that the moderators do

not regulate any emails that is received at the email

address:advaitin .

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

Advaitin List Moderator

 

advaitin , "S. V. Subrahmanian"

<svsubrahmanian@h...> wrote:

> Sri Ram-ji,

>

> As I mentioned in my posting "Please disregard", the twin appearance

my

> posting is only a mistake. It has happened quite often with

"advaitin" that

> my posting comes one day after it has been sent.

>

> I was not craving for attention -

>

> Regards.

> S. V. Subrahmanian.

[Guest guest]

On 1/20/01 at 10:39 AM Madhava K. Turumella wrote:

 

º:-)

ºUnfortunately, now a days disciples are more like Iron metal. When they go

ºnear to the magnet (guru) they acquire the magnet qualities, and they

ºretain them as long as they are in the company of the Magnet. But the

ºmoment they move themselves away, some force (karma) or by their own

ºfreewill, they lose their Magnet qualities and become the same old rusty

ºiron metal. :-)

º

ºI remain yours,

ºMadhava

º

 

That analogy with magnetism is quite on target - when returning to "social

life", the iron gets above the Curie temperature again (passions), and the iron

will lose its magnetic properties. Hence a requirement like unswerving "inner"

devotion or renunciation...

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

>"S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian

>I would like to amplify the comparison of "thorn with thorn" and

>"kaTaka-reNuvat" (with your kind permission):

Beutiful amplification. Thanks.

Hari OM!

sadananda

 

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