Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 ***We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it." *** Namaste, I don't think the statement deserves the caustic scorn and contempt heaped by Harshaji. As for me, I would substitute "Ego" in place of mind. A lot of thughtful ,spiritually oriented people, eastern and western, have expressed similar feelings.Avidya's most deceptively potent powers of projecting and cooncealing appear in the subtle manipulatins of the ego which skillfuly rationalizes its unconscious ulterior motives. If we analyze each and every sentence as a logical proposition communication and free expression will be impossible.The core of avidya is ambivalence of dwait which shows in logical paradoxes and mental dilemmas. Buddhi or bud dhi is spiritually awakened Intelligence -which unites knowing,willing and feeling - is said to surpass mind- manasastu paraa buddhi yo buddheH parasastu sah- . Because of its saatvik transparency and closeness to aatman it functions as a saaksin. If a smart brain does not mature into buddhi a search can become a spiritual trick. But only the trickster will know if it is a trick. If he does know it is a trick, it is not. vasant ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2001 Report Share Posted January 22, 2001 Dennis Waite [dwaite] Monday, January 22, 2001 5:56 AM Advaitin Provovative comment Dear Harsha, I think you are being extremely harsh(a) when you say "Such statements have no inherent meaning at all". ___ Dearest Dennis. I am actually using much softer words than perhaps what Swami Vivekananda would have used in the face of such superficiality being paraded as depth of wisdom! Hopefully, I am also being true to the spirit of your subject of "Provocative comment" by being further provocative! I would like to raise the stakes even more and say that the statement you quoted reflects nothing but a mass of confusion burdened by its own weight. The statement you quoted is: ***We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it." *** The statement implies that awakening is "most effectively" avoided by "seeking" it. The statement postulates a hierarchy of sorts where "seeking" is at the top and is considered to be the best way to avoid awakening. I would like to know more about this hierarchy. What is "below" seeking. Eating ice cream? Having 5 wives and a few concubines on the side? Stealing, cheating, lying? Running for a political office? What exactly is postulated to be below "seeking" which is "least effective" in preventing awakening? Analyze this Dennis with a clear mind. What does it really mean? If you understand it well, perhaps you can explain. Love Harsha _____________ Hi Dennis. You may know that sentiments described above have become very common among the "modern" teachers of nonduality. They are supposed to reflect ultimate wisdom and understanding. Such statements have no inherent meaning at all and perhaps they are most useful only for the one making them. Give the parrots of nonduality their due, because there is a place for them also in the scheme of things. People truly learn by teaching. Harsha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2001 Report Share Posted January 22, 2001 Namaste: As Vedantins, let us stimulate our thoughts and shy away from being provocative. Here are some thoughts in that direction! Be seek, be seek, but not too seek! Be bold, be bold, but not too bold! Be fear, be fear, but not too fear! Be rich, be rich, but not too rich! Be poor, be poor, but not too poor! Be right, be right, but not too right! Be critical, be critical but not too critical! Be blunt, be blunt, but not too blunt! Also: Be cool, be cool and be forever cool! Be civil, be civil and be forever civil! Be forgive, be forgive and be forever forgive! Be friendly, be friendly and be forever friendly! Be love, be love and be forever love! Be healthy, be healthy and be forever healthy! Be happy, be happy and be forever happy! Be serene, be serene and be forever serene! Be good, be good and be forever good! Be kind, be kind and be forever kind! Be aware, be aware and be forever aware! Be surrender, be surrender and be forever surrender! Aum Shanthih! Aum Shanthih !! Aum Shanthih!!! Ram Chandran Note: I am quite sure that the choice of this subject title by Dennis was also to stimulate more discussions. Also the name, Harsha represents the opposite of being Harsh! In Sanskrit when 'a' is added in front it can convey the opposite meaning (for example, adharma is the opposite of dharma). In Harsha, 'a' is added at the end to indicate that Harsha will never be harsh! There is lots of empirical evidence in this list for supporting my thoery! -- In advaitin , "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > Dearest Dennis. > ..... > > Hopefully, I am also being true to the spirit of your subject of > "Provocative comment" by being further provocative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Dear Harsha, You won't succeed in winding me up with your Zen stick! (After all, it was me who made the provocation in the first place.) I think you know perfectly well that teachers such as the ones I quoted use the language to make their point in the most dramatic way, not paying attention to logic or literal meanings. They know, as well as you and I, that reality is beyond language or thought. As already pointed out by others, the words are intended simply to alert us to the fact that someone who is seeking something 'out there' is never going to find it, when it is his very own nature. As an aside though, you still haven't justified your low opinion of the likes of Tony Parsons and Wayne Liquorman. Have you actually been in their presence and listened to them? (I have.) Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Dennis Waite wrote: > > As already pointed out by others, the words are intended simply > to alert us to the fact that someone who is seeking something 'out there' is > never going to find it, when it is his very own nature. > dearest friends- bear in mind [and i'm sure you'll agree], one wouldn't tell a beginning or middling aspirant not to seek.. in the same way one wouldn't withhold from the more advanced sadhaka one of the 'secrets' re overdoing it, that the seeker is the sought. we have to bear in mind the twin pillars of miscues in communicating metaphysics: ideas involving semantics and methods involving time. peace and love always, frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Dennis Waite [dwaite] Dear Harsha, You won't succeed in winding me up with your Zen stick! (After all, it was me who made the provocation in the first place.) I think you know perfectly well that teachers such as the ones I quoted use the language to make their point in the most dramatic way, not paying attention to logic or literal meanings. They know, as well as you and I, that reality is beyond language or thought. As already pointed out by others, the words are intended simply to alert us to the fact that someone who is seeking something 'out there' is never going to find it, when it is his very own nature. As an aside though, you still haven't justified your low opinion of the likes of Tony Parsons and Wayne Liquorman. Have you actually been in their presence and listened to them? (I have.) Best wishes, Dennis My dearest Dennis, I was engaging in a bit of hilarity. Comedy easily overcomes me, being weak in that way. I have no Zen stick and so there is no possibility of ever finding it. You did offer a provocative comment and asked for opinions. Hopefully mine have made my biases explicit and at the same time have been entertaining as well! I do not know Tony Parsons or Wayne Liquorman and all I have read from these gentlemen is what has been posted on the internet. If you are in tune with what they have to say, that is wonderful. I personally am not impressed and have never had any reason or desire to seek their "presence" as you put it. Were you trying to make me laugh Dennis when you asked that? You succeeded! Since you asked me my opinion, I will add one thing. With apologies to Greg who is a friend of Wayne, Wayne's poetry is pretty awful and appears forced and contrived in attempting to copy the Indian poets of the 15th and 16th century like Kabir and Tulsidas. I grew up reading Kabir and the other poet saints of his time in India in the original 16th, 17th century Hindi as a child. I am just guessing but probably most Indians who have read the original poetry of these saints of middle ages would find Wayne's attempt to copy that style not only childish but also reflecting a certain level of spiritual immaturity. Interestingly, the same point was also captured by Ivan, an informed scholar and contributor to HarshaSastangha from South Africa, who wrote an extremely funny and brilliant satire on one of Wayne's poems which is quite remarkable in its play of words and worth reading. Not to belabor the point Dennis, but I consider all my equal whether they are swamis, yogis, K-mart workers, professors, doctors, pundits, scientists, realized masters, super enlightened beings, seekers, non-seekers, firmly established in truth of nonduality, etc. This certainly includes Wayne and Tony along with everyone else. Of course, I do not mind meeting people as friends in fellowship and enjoy that very much. In fact, we had a retreat last summer at the Providence Zen Center where many people from and NDS came. The pictures of this delightful group are in the HS files. Love to all (Wayne and Tony included!) Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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