Gita Satsang - cogitations-Ranade on Antinomies-Part3

[Guest guest]

namaste shri sunder,

 

Thanks very much for the series on antinomies. They are

very illuminating. I have a question.

 

Is there antinomy at all in the context of our discussions

of bhagavadgItA? I like to put forward the following arguments

to show that there is no antinomy at all.

 

1. We know bhakti is jnAna. Also, we know karma done without

phalApeksha (nivr^itti karma) is part of jnAna. Thus, all

are one and the same. [Karma with phalApeksha is not

advocated anywhere except in mImAMsa, and that would not

lead anywhere according to vedAnta. Also, karma with

phalApeksha is not jnAna].

 

2. When Arjuna asks in BG 5.1 which procedure (karma sannyAsa

or karma yoga) is better, he is asking as if he has a choice

between the two procedures. Lord Krishna says very clearly

in BG5.2 that karma without phalApeksha is a better procedure.

He (Lord Krishna) did not say that is better for Arjuna

specifically, but that is implied in the answer. I am

following the argument here from GUDhArtha-dIpika of

Madhusudana Saraswati.

 

Generally sAdhakA-s are at different levels. If cittashuddhi

is already attained, then karma-sannyAsa is the route to go

by. This is the recommended route for sAdhakA-s who have

taken sannyAsa right from brahmacarya. For a sAdhaka still

with an impure mind, nivr^itti karma is required for cittashuddhi.

Arjuna is in that catgory. Arjuna does not have the option of

karma-sannyAsa. He has to do nivr^itti karma.

 

For the same sAdhaka, at different stages of spiritual

evolution, the so-called other 'option' is available, namely

karma-sannyAsa. In summary, then, for a sAdhaka at a given

moment (or at a given stage of spiritual evolution), only one

route is possible, all being sequential steps to the same end.

Thus, there is no antinomy at all.

 

I would be grateful for your and other List-members' comments.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote:

 

Namaste Murthy-garu,

 

Is there antinomy at all in the context of our discussions

of bhagavadgItA? I like to put forward the following arguments

to show that there is no antinomy at all.

 

1. We know bhakti is jnAna.

 

*****This holds true only in the ultimate stage. For example,

 

Gita VII:16 chaturvidhaa bhajante maa.n janaaH sukR^itinaH arjuna.....

 

& 17....teshha.n j~naanii nitya-yukta eka-bhaktiH

vishishhyate ..

 

Ranade has specifically excluded Bhakti at this stage of the

discussion [Pl. ref. Part II, message #7628 of 1/19/01].

____________________

 

Also, we know karma done without

phalApeksha (nivr^itti karma) is part of jnAna.

 

*****This is the antinomy! j~naana is 'naishhkarmya'. There is not

even a trace of karma when j~naana dawns. For eaxample,

 

Gita IV:37 j~naanaagniH sarva-karmaaNi bhasmasaat kurute tathaa ..

 

 

____________________

______

 

 

 

2. When Arjuna asks in BG 5.1 which procedure (karma sannyAsa

or karma yoga) is better, he is asking as if he has a choice

between the two procedures. Lord Krishna says very clearly

in BG5.2 that karma without phalApeksha is a better procedure.

He (Lord Krishna) did not say that is better for Arjuna

specifically, but that is implied in the answer. I am

following the argument here from GUDhArtha-dIpika of

Madhusudana Saraswati.

 

*****This is a re-phrasing of the question in Gita III:1, "If you say

j~naana is superior to karma, then why are you advocating this

terrible karma [war] for me?"

 

So, at the stage of Arjuna's understanding, 'pravR^itti-karma' [karma

without phala-apekshaa] was the better choice. For example,

 

Gita VI:3 - aarurukshoH muneH yoga.n karma kaaraNam uchyate .

yoga-aaruuDhasya tasya eva shamaH kaaraNam uchyate ..

 

____________________

____

 

 

Generally sAdhakA-s are at different levels. If cittashuddhi

is already attained, then karma-sannyAsa is the route to go

by. This is the recommended route for sAdhakA-s who have

taken sannyAsa right from brahmacarya.

 

For a sAdhaka still with an impure mind, nivr^itti karma is required

for

cittashuddhi. Arjuna is in that catgory. Arjuna does not have the

option of

karma-sannyAsa. He has to do nivr^itti karma.

 

*****This is what would be termed a figure of speech - oxymoron, a

self-contradictory phrase, like 'cruel kindness'. Karma denotes

pravR^itti only;

karma without phala-apekshaa is still pravR^itti, not nivR^itti.

____________________

______

 

For the same sAdhaka, at different stages of spiritual

evolution, the so-called other 'option' is available, namely

karma-sannyAsa. In summary, then, for a sAdhaka at a given

moment (or at a given stage of spiritual evolution), only one

route is possible, all being sequential steps to the same end.

Thus, there is no antinomy at all.

 

***Krishna has offered a recipe even transcending the options, in

XVIII:66 -

 

sarva-dharmaan parityajya maam eka.n sharaNa.n vraja ......

____________________

_____

 

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your argument. Ranade has

given verses from the Gita itself which can be construed as

contradictory, and your argument has not addressed these particular

verses.

[Guest guest]

We have to distinguish between karmaphala-tyaaga (aka karma yoga) and

karma-tyaaga (aka karma

sannyaasa). Similarly we should distinguish between jnaana praapti (getting the

knowledge)

and jnaana nishhtha ( being firmly established in jnaana.

In his bhashhya (B.G. V.12) shankara clearly indicates the sequential stages of

saadhanaa by

which one attains the mokshaakhyaa naishhthikii shaantiH (peace born of strict

discipline

called mokshha). He specifically uses the word krameNa to indicate that they

are all sequential

 

Initially, one is an ayuktaH ( a non-yogin ) . He performs karma with the

avowed object of

enjoying their phala. Because he is attached to the desire for phala, he remains

a

baddha(bound to samsaara).

 

The first step in the saadhanaa to get over this shackle of samsaara is

karmaphala tyaaga.

The saadhaka becomes a yuktaH- a karmayogin, performing karma but renouncing

the fruits of

that karma .In the words of Shankara, the saadhaka does all karma with the

attitude

" iishvaraaya karmaaNi karomi, na mama phalaaya " - I work for iisvara and not

for enjoying

the fruits myself.

According to Shankara, in this verse (V.12) KrishNa tells Arjuna "yukto bhava"

- become such

a yogin.

Shankara elucidates that this will lead to the peace of nishhtha

(aka moksha) in the following sequential steps:

sattva-shuddhi --> jnaana-praapti --> sarva- karma- sannyaasa -->

jnaana-nishhtha

krameNa ( in that order)

 

Karmayoga (note that this is renunciation of the fruits of karma only and not

renunciation of

karma itself) leads to sattva shuddhi (mental purification).

 

When the mind has become pure, Knowledge of the Truth arises

( this is called jnaana praapti). It is only then,i.e. after jnaana praapti,

that karma sannyaasa - renunciation of all

karma itself - can be practised.

 

Karma sannyaasa then leads to jnaana nishhtha - being firmly established in

jnaana.

 

KrishhNa (verse V.12) when advising Arjuna to become a yuktaH, says that a

karmayogin, by

renouncing karmaphala, attains "naishhthikii shaanti" . The word naishhthikii

is explained

by Shankara as nishhthayaam bhavaa - which is born of strict discipline. The

sequence in

which such discipline is developed is explained by Shankara as detailed above.

 

This is my understanding of Shankara's bhashhya. Comments, corrections,

criticisms are as

welcome as concurrence.

Regards.

VMS.

 

Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

> For the same sAdhaka, at different stages of spiritual

> evolution, the so-called other 'option' is available, namely

> karma-sannyAsa. In summary, then, for a sAdhaka at a given

> moment (or at a given stage of spiritual evolution), only one

> route is possible, all being sequential steps to the same end.

> Thus, there is no antinomy at all.

>

> I would be grateful for your and other List-members' comments.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> ------

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Thank you for the explication.

For cross references to the key word yukta, please check these verses:

 

IV:18; V:23; VI:8, 18, 47; and XII:2.

 

[i need your advice re: posting the next series of verses; would you

like them posted every Monday, or hold off if a discussion thread has

started like this one and is not complete? Thank you.]

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

advaitin, "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman@p...> wrote:

> We have to distinguish between karmaphala-tyaaga (aka karma yoga)

and karma-tyaaga (aka karma

> sannyaasa). Similarly we should distinguish between jnaana praapti

(getting the knowledge)

> and jnaana nishhtha ( being firmly established in jnaana.

> In his bhashhya (B.G. V.12) shankara clearly indicates the

sequential stages of saadhanaa by

> which one attains the mokshaakhyaa naishhthikii shaantiH (peace

born of strict discipline

> called mokshha). He specifically uses the word krameNa to indicate

that they are all sequential

>

> Initially, one is an ayuktaH ( a non-yogin ) . He performs

karma with the avowed object of

> enjoying their phala. Because he is attached to the desire for

phala, he remains a

> baddha(bound to samsaara).

>

> The first step in the saadhanaa to get over this shackle of

samsaara is karmaphala tyaaga.

> The saadhaka becomes a yuktaH- a karmayogin, performing karma but

renouncing the fruits of

> that karma .In the words of Shankara, the saadhaka does all karma

with the attitude

> " iishvaraaya karmaaNi karomi, na mama phalaaya " - I work for

iisvara and not for enjoying

> the fruits myself.

> According to Shankara, in this verse (V.12) KrishNa tells

Arjuna "yukto bhava" - become such

> a yogin.

> Shankara elucidates that this will lead to the peace of nishhtha

> (aka moksha) in the following sequential steps:

> sattva-shuddhi --> jnaana-praapti --> sarva- karma- sannyaasa -->

jnaana-nishhtha

> krameNa ( in that order)

>

> Karmayoga (note that this is renunciation of the fruits of karma

only and not renunciation of

> karma itself) leads to sattva shuddhi (mental purification).

>

> When the mind has become pure, Knowledge of the Truth arises

> ( this is called jnaana praapti). It is only then,i.e. after

jnaana praapti, that karma sannyaasa - renunciation of all

> karma itself - can be practised.

>

> Karma sannyaasa then leads to jnaana nishhtha - being firmly

established in jnaana.

>

> KrishhNa (verse V.12) when advising Arjuna to become a yuktaH,

says that a karmayogin, by

> renouncing karmaphala, attains "naishhthikii shaanti" . The word

naishhthikii is explained

> by Shankara as nishhthayaam bhavaa - which is born of strict

discipline. The sequence in

> which such discipline is developed is explained by Shankara as

detailed above.

>

> This is my understanding of Shankara's bhashhya. Comments,

corrections, criticisms are as

> welcome as concurrence.

> Regards.

> VMS.

[Guest guest]

sunderh wrote

> I need your advice re: posting the next series of verses; would you

> like them posted every Monday, or hold off if a discussion thread has

> started like this one and is not complete?

>

> Is it possible to know when a discussion thread is complete ?

>

> vms.

>

> advaitin, "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman@p...> wrote:

> > We have to distinguish between karmaphala-tyaaga (aka karma yoga)

> and karma-tyaaga (aka karma

> > sannyaasa). Similarly we should distinguish between jnaana praapti

> (getting the knowledge)

> > and jnaana nishhtha ( being firmly established in jnaana.

> > In his bhashhya (B.G. V.12) shankara clearly indicates the

> sequential stages of saadhanaa by

> > which one attains the mokshaakhyaa naishhthikii shaantiH (peace

> born of strict discipline

> > called mokshha). He specifically uses the word krameNa to indicate

> that they are all sequential

> >

> > Initially, one is an ayuktaH ( a non-yogin ) . He performs

> karma with the avowed object of

> > enjoying their phala. Because he is attached to the desire for

> phala, he remains a

> > baddha(bound to samsaara).

> >

> > The first step in the saadhanaa to get over this shackle of

> samsaara is karmaphala tyaaga.

> > The saadhaka becomes a yuktaH- a karmayogin, performing karma but

> renouncing the fruits of

> > that karma .In the words of Shankara, the saadhaka does all karma

> with the attitude

> > " iishvaraaya karmaaNi karomi, na mama phalaaya " - I work for

> iisvara and not for enjoying

> > the fruits myself.

> > According to Shankara, in this verse (V.12) KrishNa tells

> Arjuna "yukto bhava" - become such

> > a yogin.

> > Shankara elucidates that this will lead to the peace of nishhtha

> > (aka moksha) in the following sequential steps:

> > sattva-shuddhi --> jnaana-praapti --> sarva- karma- sannyaasa -->

> jnaana-nishhtha

> > krameNa ( in that order)

> >

> > Karmayoga (note that this is renunciation of the fruits of karma

> only and not renunciation of

> > karma itself) leads to sattva shuddhi (mental purification).

> >

> > When the mind has become pure, Knowledge of the Truth arises

> > ( this is called jnaana praapti). It is only then,i.e. after

> jnaana praapti, that karma sannyaasa - renunciation of all

> > karma itself - can be practised.

> >

> > Karma sannyaasa then leads to jnaana nishhtha - being firmly

> established in jnaana.

> >

> > KrishhNa (verse V.12) when advising Arjuna to become a yuktaH,

> says that a karmayogin, by

> > renouncing karmaphala, attains "naishhthikii shaanti" . The word

> naishhthikii is explained

> > by Shankara as nishhthayaam bhavaa - which is born of strict

> discipline. The sequence in

> > which such discipline is developed is explained by Shankara as

> detailed above.

> >

> > This is my understanding of Shankara's bhashhya. Comments,

> corrections, criticisms are as

> > welcome as concurrence.

> > Regards.

> > VMS.

>

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server

> For details, visit: /local/news.html

> Post message: advaitin

> Subscribe: advaitin-

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[Guest guest]

Namste Sunder-ji,

 

(1) How do you determine when a discussion thread is complete?

(2) Will it be better to post a new set of verses on say every thursday

instead of every monday ? Will some people find it more convenient

to digest the fresh dose of verses over the weekend and be able to

give their

inputs to the discussion by monday or tuesday?

 

Regards.

vms.

 

 

sunderh wrote:

> I need your advice re: posting the next series of verses; would you

> like them posted every Monday, or hold off if a discussion thread has

> started like this one and is not complete?

>

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I would go on the assumption that if a thread started with a

question, the questioner can determine if the responses have gone far

enough to answer the question and thus indicate a wish to end the

thread, or if there is no response to the question or theme for a week

then a new start can be made. [ I am suggesting this ONLY for Gita

Satsang threads, and NOT for any others. For example, if the Gita

verses/themes go without a response for a week, I shall post a new

series. ]

 

I see no problem in posting a new series any day of the week,

every other week, or at whatever intervals readers feel comfortable

and satisfied, etc. A message to my e-mail address to proceed would

also be welcome.

 

I do not see the postings as any additional work for me; it is

just a part of my own ongoing study.

 

Thanks to all readers.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman@p...> wrote:

> Namste Sunder-ji,

>

> (1) How do you determine when a discussion thread is complete?

> (2) Will it be better to post a new set of verses on say every

thursday

> instead of every monday ? Will some people find it more

convenient

> to digest the fresh dose of verses over the weekend and

be able to give their

> inputs to the discussion by monday or tuesday?

>

> Regards.

> vms.

>

>

> sunderh@h... wrote:

>

> > I need your advice re: posting the next series of verses; would

you

> > like them posted every Monday, or hold off if a discussion thread

has

> > started like this one and is not complete?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -