Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Peace to You Namaste - All unfolds as it will in perfect harmony... the balance is always maintained... ours is not to question why.... but only to know that it is so.... The spirit of Truth conquers ALL in the end.... Thankyou for all the words shared online... am leaving the line to the scholars which enjoy endless debate... there is only one plea left please take as much time for solitude and self-introspection to dispell the illusions of truth as you do for debating scripture... for the truth is ultimately found within.... resting in the silence and Anand, where there is no within/without.... (any may write my personal address or visit the site listed below) Love and Blessings Sat*Chit*Anand Shanti-Shanti-Shanti Om crystalkundalini god-realized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 Namaste, Gita X:32 - sargaaNaam aadiH antaH cha madhya.n cha eva aham arjuna . adhyaatma-vidyaa vidyaanaa.n vaadaH pravadataam aham.h .. "Of creations I am the beginning and the middle and also the end; of all knowledges I am the knowledge of the Self, and Vada of disputants." "Vada is that way of arguing, of which the object is to arrive at Truth regarding a certain question. Jalpa is an argument in which a disputant tries to assert one's own opinion and to refute that of one's adversary by an overbearing reply or a wrangling rejoinder. Vitanda consists in idly carping at the arguments or assertions of another without attempting to establish the opposite side of the question." Regards, s. advaitin, crystalkundalini@h... wrote: > Peace to You > .... am leaving the line to > the scholars which enjoy endless debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 In addition to vaada, jalpa and vitanDa, we also have samvaada - a discussion between a teacher and a tought like shree krishNa-arjuna samvaada - here the discussion is not to establish the truth but to transmit the truth from higher (teacher) to the taught. The student is allowed to ask questions - but he is not questioning the teacher but questioning his understanding so that teacher can clarify. Vaada is between two equals - to establish the truth. Jalpa is each one comes to table of discussion with the notion that he is right and the other fellow is worng and the purpose of the discussion is only to conver the other fellow to one's own camp. The problem is the other fellow also comes with the same notion. (this what happens when Jahoha witness kids come to my house to convert to their camp!) Here one will not accept defeat only he comes back later with some more orguments to supports his theory. There will be lot of noise but the bystanders can learn who is more correct or who is more stupid as the case may be. VitanDa, neither one has any conviction. Opponent is wrong only because that statement is made by him. The same statement by some other may be right. This is done to establish lack of credability of the opponent. In conducting Vedanta Vaada, lot of rules have been put forward to make sure the discussion takes place in a well established format. Judges are appointed who is impartial and ground rules for discussion are set - particularly what is the pramaaNa to establish the truth. For Vedantic discussions Veda-s are considered as ultimate pramaaNa. Hari Om! Sadananda >sunderh > >sargaaNaam aadiH antaH cha madhya.n cha eva aham arjuna . >adhyaatma-vidyaa vidyaanaa.n vaadaH pravadataam aham.h .. > >"Of creations I am the beginning and the middle and also the end; of >all knowledges I am the knowledge of the Self, and Vada of >disputants." > >"Vada is that way of arguing, of which the object is to arrive at >Truth regarding a certain question. >Jalpa is an argument in which a disputant tries to assert one's own >opinion and to refute that of one's adversary by an overbearing reply >or a wrangling rejoinder. >Vitanda consists in idly carping at the arguments or assertions of >another without attempting to establish the opposite side of the >question." > > >Regards, > >s. > > >advaitin, crystalkundalini@h... wrote: > > Peace to You > > >... am leaving the line to > > the scholars which enjoy endless debate... > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote: > In addition to vaada, jalpa and vitanDa, we also have samvaada - a > discussion between a teacher and a tought like shree krishNa-arjuna samvaada > - here the discussion is not to establish the truth but to transmit the > truth from higher (teacher) to the taught. The student is allowed to ask > questions - but he is not questioning the teacher but questioning his > understanding so that teacher can clarify. > > Vaada is between two equals - to establish the truth. > > Jalpa is each one comes to table of discussion with the notion that he is > right and the other fellow is worng and the purpose of the discussion is > only to conver the other fellow to one's own camp. The problem is the other > fellow also comes with the same notion. (this what happens when Jahoha > witness kids come to my house to convert to their camp!) Here one will not > accept defeat only he comes back later with some more orguments to supports > his theory. There will be lot of noise but the bystanders can learn who is > more correct or who is more stupid as the case may be. > > VitanDa, neither one has any conviction. Opponent is wrong only because > that statement is made by him. The same statement by some other may be > right. This is done to establish lack of credability of the opponent. > > In conducting Vedanta Vaada, lot of rules have been put forward to make sure > the discussion takes place in a well established format. Judges are > appointed who is impartial and ground rules for discussion are set - > particularly what is the pramaaNa to establish the truth. For Vedantic > discussions Veda-s are considered as ultimate pramaaNa. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > namaste. Thanks to shri Sunder and shri Sadananda for explaining the various types of vAdA-s (discussions). Quite often we see (may be in the modern day debates), the discussion is quickly converted from the message to the messenger. That is, quite often, one of the discussants attacks the eligibility of the messenger to deliver the message. The message is no longer debated, only the eligibility of the messenger becomes the topic of debate (this is probably by design). In the classification of the vAdA-s, where do you put this technique? I assume this is probably vitanDa. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Namaste Sadaji, Thanks for the elaboration. One question: Is sa.nvaada category a later 'addition'? It does not occur in Gautama's Nyaya-sutras. Regards, s. advaitin, "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda@h...> wrote: > In addition to vaada, jalpa and vitanDa, we also have samvaada - a > discussion between a teacher and a tought like shree krishNa-arjuna samvaada > - here the discussion is not to establish the truth but to transmit the > truth from higher (teacher) to the taught. .com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 >Namaste Sadaji, > > Thanks for the elaboration. > > One question: Is sa.nvaada category a later 'addition'? It >does not occur in Gautama's Nyaya-sutras. > >Regards, > >s. Sunder - I am not sure if it is part of original classification. I learned this from my teacher. There was some discussion on different aspects of katha-s or vaada-s in terms of how the discussions should be conducted - may have been established by tarkika-s. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 > >Quite often we see (may be in the modern day debates), the discussion >is quickly converted from the message to the messenger. That is, quite >often, one of the discussants attacks the eligibility of the messenger >to deliver the message. The message is no longer debated, only the >eligibility of the messenger becomes the topic of debate (this is >probably by design). > >In the classification of the vAdA-s, where do you put this technique? >I assume this is probably vitanDa. Messenger is as important sometimes as the message particularly if the message has instructions to follow. There is a credibility problem if a notorious liar makes statements based on which one has to act. Hence discussion sometime shifts to the credibility of the discusser and VitanDa is used effectively to dismiss the opponent. As you may note in Shree Anand Hudli's discussion of Adviata Siddhi, there were many puurvapaksha arguments particularly from dwaitins, where the advaita statements were distorted and then argued using navya naaya that the so-called statements are wrong. This may also come under vitanDa since object is more to discredit the philosophy to win a point than to establish the truth. But in the long run it is bound to fail since truth is different, but meanwhile the damage has been done at least temporarily and those who don't have the scholarship to see the truth correctly can get carried away by this. This is being used effectively by Christian missionaries - see particularly the latest episode of Southern Baptists brochures on Indian Diipavali. A distorted version is presented to win over the ignorant. These are all vitanDa vaada-s. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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