Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 : Elephant

February 9, 2001

Harsha wrote:

>

> Bhagavata Purana: XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita Press,

> Gorakhpur].

>

> Teacher #13. - Elephant

>

> pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

> spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

>

> A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

> figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

> like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

>

> Dear Sunderji,

>

> I am not a scholar in the scriptures but it seems as if on the face of

it

> that these verses are insulting to women. Women are our mothers, sisters,

> daughters, and wives. Yes, even ascetics have mothers I suspect.

Dear Harshaji / BTA SAgarji,

I do not see anything in this verse which is insulting to women. Nor does this

verse advocate misogyny.

Here is the advice given to a bhikshu - a renunciate . He has to become a

baahya-sparsheshhu - asakta - aatma --- and insulate his mind totally from

external sense objects. The indriya-s are so powerful that they can lead the

mind

astray, vaayur naavam iva ambhasi - as a rudderless ship on the waters is tossed

about hither and thither by the wind. It is therefore necessary to take the

tightest

precautions to prevent desire, particularly sex desire, from sprouting in the

mind.

That is why a bhikshhu, a renunciate, has to avoid all contact with the opposite

sex,

untill he has gained mastery over his indriya-s. This is no degradation of

women !

This injunction would apply mutatis mutandis to a woman who wants to be a

renunciate.

She will have to avoid all contact with men till she attains mastery over the

indriya-s.

Can that be interpreted as degrading all men ?

It may also be noted that such abhorance of worldly pleasures is prescribed only

for

renunciates and students. A grihastha is enjoined to lead a family life, with a

saha-dharma-carii - a woman partner who will lead a life of dharma along with

him. Together

they have a duty to raise

progeny (dharma prajaa , not kaama prajaa) and repay a debt to their

progenitors.

There is no insult , degradation, or hatred of womankind prescribed.

If you go back a few verses in the same chapter, to verse 8.7, a woman is

described as

deva-maayaa , the creative power of God. It is the a-jitendriyaH ( one who has

not gained

mastery over his indriya-s) who falls a victim to his desires and perishes like

a moth

in the flame of a lamp. The lamp is not to be blamed

>

Regards

V.M.Sundaram

>

February 10, 2001

Namaste,

Bhagavata Purana: XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita Press,

Gorakhpur].

Teacher #13. - Elephant

pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

__________________-

na adhigachchhet striyaM praaj~naH karhichit mR^ityum aatmanaH .

bala adhikaiH sa hanyeta gajaiH anyaiH gajaH yathaa .. 14..

A wise man should never seek a woman, who is his death [as it were];

[for] he might be killed by other more powerful persons [after her]

just as an elephant is killed by stronger tuskers. 15 .

Regards,

s.

February 10, 2001

sunderh [sunderh]

Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:54 AM

advaitin

Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 : Elephant

Namaste,

Bhagavata Purana: XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita Press,

Gorakhpur].

Teacher #13. - Elephant

pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

______________

_________________-

na adhigachchhet striyaM praaj~naH karhichit mR^ityum aatmanaH .

bala adhikaiH sa hanyeta gajaiH anyaiH gajaH yathaa .. 14..

A wise man should never seek a woman, who is his death [as it were];

[for] he might be killed by other more powerful persons [after her]

just as an elephant is killed by stronger tuskers. 15 .

Regards,

s.

Dear Sunderji,

I am not a scholar in the scriptures but it seems as if on the face of it

that these verses are insulting to women. Women are our mothers, sisters,

daughters, and wives. Yes, even ascetics have mothers I suspect.

Every year we hear the most heart wrenching and heart breaking stories of

the way some Indian women are treated by their husbands and their in-laws.

They are even physically abused and sometimes much worse. Some of these

situations are associated with the dowry system even in the modern age and

some are just examples of how cruel human beings can be to each other. Well

I need not say more. We have all heard of the gruesome tales.

Sorry if I upset anyone, but I hope there is a place for acknowledging

modern realities and being honest in the context of scriptural study.

Love to all

Harsha

February 10, 2001

hariH OM! harshaji-

yes, this is a vital point!

it depends on the ascetic's *attitude* and potential for

true insight into the nature of the female manifestation

of the human being [of which i firmly believe we *all*

cyclically incarnate, usually alternating between both

genders]..

i literally worship my wife as an incarnation of kali.

her sanskrit name is leeladurga.

this is not original. countless many have done so,

including of course ramakrishna paramahamsa.

peace in love,

frank

Harsha wrote:

>

> sunderh [sunderh]

> Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:54 AM

> advaitin

> Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 : Elephant

>

> Namaste,

>

> Bhagavata Purana: XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita Press,

> Gorakhpur].

>

> Teacher #13. - Elephant

>

> pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

> spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

>

> A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

> figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

> like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

> ______________

> _________________-

>

> na adhigachchhet striyaM praaj~naH karhichit mR^ityum aatmanaH .

> bala adhikaiH sa hanyeta gajaiH anyaiH gajaH yathaa .. 14..

>

> A wise man should never seek a woman, who is his death [as it were];

> [for] he might be killed by other more powerful persons [after her]

> just as an elephant is killed by stronger tuskers. 15 .

>

> Regards,

>

> s.

>

> Dear Sunderji,

>

> I am not a scholar in the scriptures but it seems as if on the face of

it

> that these verses are insulting to women. Women are our mothers, sisters,

> daughters, and wives. Yes, even ascetics have mothers I suspect.

>

> Every year we hear the most heart wrenching and heart breaking stories

of

> the way some Indian women are treated by their husbands and their in-laws.

> They are even physically abused and sometimes much worse. Some of these

> situations are associated with the dowry system even in the modern age and

> some are just examples of how cruel human beings can be to each other. Well

> I need not say more. We have all heard of the gruesome tales.

>

> Sorry if I upset anyone, but I hope there is a place for acknowledging

> modern realities and being honest in the context of scriptural study.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

> Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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February 10, 2001

Dear Harshji,

It would certainly be useful to have the views of some female members.

Since you started this discussion with specific reference to a particular verse,

can you

precisely pin point what you found offensive in that particular verse. This

will help us

understand

the" female point of view" better.

I do not deny that many societal distortions have crept in over

the ages. I look forward to clarification of what you have in mind when you

suggest that

interpretations of scriptures should be done honestly and in keeping with modern

realities.

For example, can you suggest how this very verse should be interpreted .

Thank you.

Regards.

V.M.Sundaram

"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" wrote:

> Thank you Sundaramji. I appreciate your perspective as that of our other

> esteemed brothers and colleagues. Perhaps it would be helpful to have the

> point of view of our female members now and then on such issues. It seems

> that the majority who post to the list are males. My suggestion to the list

> moderators would be to consider at some point inviting a female moderator or

> two to join them.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

February 10, 2001

Bhagawan Sri Ramakrishna realized and worshipped

his wife Srimathi Sarada Devi as

Goddess(God)personified.It is the ignorance lurking in

the dark mind that needs to be conquered or feared,not

Stree who is none other than Lord Vishnu,who took

beautiful Mohini avataram to tell us that when we

revere Stree who is Goddess personified,as our

Mother,or Sister,or as Dharmapatni as appropriate,she

bestows all Blessings or Amritha (Ambrosia) and not

when one looks at her like asuras did.

In Sanskrit scriptures sometimes Stree is used to

indicate Streebhavam--looking at her with

inappropriate gender bhavam in one's mind.Many

commentators often forget this peculiarity of

Sanskrit..

Ananda Sagar

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February 10, 2001

Dear Harsha,

I fully agree with your sentiments.India is in bad

shape in many aspects because the Hindu

scriptures in Sanskrit were not correctly interpreted

or understood..One cannot use modern Sanskrit grammar

and dictionary developed by pundits only in the recent

decades to interpret ancient scriptures.Such

misinterpretation even now is causing confusion with

Srimad Bhagawad Geetha. and Srimad Bhagawatam.The

fault also sometimes lies with pseudomonks who hated

this wonderful God's Creation and hated the joyful

responsibilities it bestows on us.In Reality Stree

(Woman) is none other than Lord Vishnu's most

beautiful Mohini incarnation,which is celebrated even

in most sacred temples of India every year.

Ananda Sagar

Harsha

<harsha-hkl> wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff solid 2px;

MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:

5px"><HTML><BODY><TT>-----Original

Message----- sunderh

[sunderh] Saturday,

February 10, 2001 7:54 AM To:

advaitin Shri

Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 :

Elephant Namaste, Bhagavata Purana:

XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita

Press, Gorakhpur]. Teacher #13. -

Elephant pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na

spR^ishet daaraviim api . spR^ishan kariiva

badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13.. A

begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot

even the wooden figure of a youthful woman; if he

touched it, he would be chained like the elephant

brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13

.. ______________ _______________________\

__________- na

adhigachchhet striyaM praaj~naH karhichit mR^ityum

aatmanaH . bala adhikaiH sa hanyeta gajaiH anyaiH

gajaH yathaa .. 14.. A wise man should never

seek a woman, who is his death [as it were]; [for]

he might be killed by other more powerful persons

[after her] just as an elephant is killed by

stronger tuskers. 15

.. Regards, s. Dear

Sunderji, I am

not a scholar in the scriptures but it seems as if on

the face of it that these verses are insulting to

women. Women are our mothers, sisters, daughters,

and wives. Yes, even ascetics have mothers I

suspect. Every

year we hear the most heart wrenching and heart

breaking stories of the way some Indian women are

treated by their husbands and their in-laws. They

are even physically abused and sometimes much worse.

Some of these situations are associated with the

dowry system even in the modern age and some are

just examples of how cruel human beings can be to each

other. Well I need not say more. We have all heard

of the gruesome

tales. Sorry if

I upset anyone, but I hope there is a place for

acknowledging modern realities and being honest in

the context of scriptural study. Love to

all Harsha </TT> <!-- |**|begin egp html

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February 10, 2001

Namaste,

Neither the culprits of social evils nor the observers have

EVER been able to justify such perpetration on scriptural grounds, no

matter how interpreted.

It is a travesty of scriptures even to imply or search for such

justification.

The context of the teachings is solely to know the Reality, and

remove the obstacles that hinder that knowledge. The seeker follows

those instructions that are applicable to one's chosen path, and not

judge those that seem inapplicable.

To make others happy is the only true religion and

spirituality, to inflict unhappiness on others is the only sin, is

the constant refrain of every 'dharma'.

Regards,

s.

advaitin, BTA SAGAR <btasagar> wrote:

>

> Dear Harsha,

> I fully agree with your sentiments

February 10, 2001

In my opinion, women may be by and large spiritually more advanced

than men. I offer proof:-

Some of the attributes of manifested God are 'ananda', 'beauty'. From

a very tender age, women look at the world more beautifully than men -

this is evident from the variety of dresses in malls for men and

women. There will be a couple of designs for men and a vast variety

of designs and color-combinations for women.

Hence, when beauty is dominant in the mind, and manifested God

is 'beauty', therefore, those who have more beauty in their minds are

that much closer to God.

Shree Sundar's quotations are still valid - it is the point of

reference with which one sees God's creation.

With Love,

Raghava

February 10, 2001

These statements should be understood properly in the proper context. The

teaching is aadhyaatma vidya and not social aspects. It is not about the

vyavaahaara aspect but paramaarthika aspect. Our sages which adore the

PrakR^iti along with all the rivers and all beautiful places with feminine

forms including bharat maata, obviously will no way insult women. There is

no god worshiped without his consort - it is prakR^iti and purusha together

as ardhanaariiswara. Lord Vishnu who adores his wife Lakshmi to the degree

that he carries her all the time on his chest as symbolic.

The sloka are contemplative. Here woman and the action described are to

take the mind away from sensuous objects. Hence woman stands for locus of

raaga. Woman is not just intended as sensuous object. Lord resides in her

too. Hence the one who takes not just woman - but tries to destroy the

prakR^iti for his self-aggrandizement, that is what is condemned. He has to

takes mind away from these sensuous thoughts. Once the child is born, She

should be treated as mother. In Hindi they used to address the wife not any

more by name but as bachonki ma - mother of my child etc. Because mother

comes first - matR^i devo bhava - mother is the first recognized god, then

father and guru etc.

Here we are not solving a social problem but aadhyaatmika problem - problem

related to once own ignorance. Unless we pull out our mind from the

sensuous attractions our mind will not be free to contemplate. You can not

serve two masters. That which belongs to Caesar is Caesar’s and that which

belongs to God is god's - something like that if I remember.

Hence shankara says in bhajagovindam

baalastaavat kriiDaasaktaH

tarunastaavat taruniisaktaH

vR^iddataavat chintaa saktaH

parame brahmani kopina saktaH||

When one is child, his mind is play, when one is adult his mind is on woman

and when one is old his mind is all in worries. When or who is one going to

think of parama Brahman?

These are reminders to turn our attention from avenues that dissipate energy

and conserve the energy and divert to the higher.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

>"Harsha" <harsha-hkl

>advaitin

><advaitin>

>RE: Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 : Elephant

>Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:30:42 -0500

>

>sunderh [sunderh]

>Saturday, February 10, 2001 7:54 AM

>advaitin

> Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 : Elephant

>

>Namaste,

>

>Bhagavata Purana: XI:viii: 13, 14 [tr. C.L.Goswamy; Gita Press,

>Gorakhpur].

>

>Teacher #13. - Elephant

>

>pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

>spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

>

>A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

>figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

>like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

>______________

>_________________-

>

_______________

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February 11, 2001

I had the good fortune of visiting many countries as a

consulting engineer for World Bank and ADB projects

especially to Indonesia several times a year..I can

never forget one incident which made a deep impression

on me.The majority of Indonesians are converted

muslims who at one time were all Hindus and adored

India and Indian culture.These Muslims even today know

Ramayana and Mahabharata equally if not more than

us.An elderly Indonesian couple who own a shop in

Semerang (Samara Rangam) went to India the land of

their culture they adore.After usual greetings,they

suddenly asked me "What is wrong with

India?"They clarified the question by saying that

they were pained to see the utter poverty of many

people in India and insanitation,as well as

adulteration of foods and even medicines and

disrespect for women.."What happened to the Hindu

religion which teaches lofty ideals?"I had to

apolozise and explain to them that due to centuries of

foreign domination,the majority of Hindus were

deprived access to their religion.Every muslim reads

Koran and every Christian reads Bible,but every Hindu

does not even know Bhagawad Geetha,let alone other

scriptures.Schools and colleges do not teach Hindu

religion either.India thus paradoxically is a land

where the majority do not have or know any religion!

Even after Independence,the Government never bothered

to teach Hindu religion in schools ,which is

prerequisite to raise cultured citizens.

BTA SAGAR

<btasagar> wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff solid 2px;

MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:

5px"><HTML><BODY><TT> Dear

Harsha, I fully agree with your

sentiments.India is in bad shape in many aspects

because the  Hindu scriptures in Sanskrit

were not correctly interpreted or understood..One

cannot use modern Sanskrit grammar and dictionary

developed by pundits only in the recent decades to

interpret ancient scriptures.Such misinterpretation

even now is causing confusion with Srimad Bhagawad

Geetha. and Srimad Bhagawatam.The fault also

sometimes lies with pseudomonks who hated this

wonderful God's Creation and hated the

joyful responsibilities it bestows on us.In Reality

Stree (Woman) is none other than Lord Vishnu's

most beautiful Mohini incarnation,which is

celebrated even in most sacred temples of India

every year. Ananda

Sagar </TT></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

February 11, 2001

Namaste,

This same soil continues to produce the choicest of Divine

flowers - Ramakrishna and all his disciples, Tagore, Aurobindo,

Ramana, Nisargadatta, Krishnamurty, Sai Baba, Narayana Guru,

Chandrashekahrendra Sarasvati[Kanchi] and Bharati[sringeri],

Yogananda, Ram Tirtha, Anandamayi Ma, Ammachi, and the list goes on.

So the surface appearances do not necessarily reflect the

quality of the soil.

There is no need for apologies, or blame on foreign

invasions. The story unfolds just according to the Divine Plan, and

like Arjuna our role is to play the part that is aasigned to us

wherever we are placed!

When Ramana was asked the same question, he quoted Ram

Tirtha: "Wanted Reformers, who want to reform themselves first!!"

Regards,

s.

advaitin, BTA SAGAR <btasagar> wrote:

;What is wrong with

> India?"They clarified the question by saying that

> they were pained to see the utter poverty of many

> people in India and insanitation,as well as

> adulteration of foods and even medicines and

> disrespect for women.."What happened to the Hindu

> religion which teaches lofty ideals?"I had to

> apolozise and explain to them that due to centuries of

> foreign domination,the majority of Hindus were

> deprived access to their religion.

February 11, 2001

Sadaji, I understand what you are saying. The purest teaching given in the

scriptures certainly relates to the Highest Truth. However, it seems that

although the teaching is about paramaarthika aspect (The Absolute), the

teaching itself is in the vyavaahaara context (on the relative plane).

Therefore, some one could plausibly and logically conclude that the

spiritual teaching indeed has a social context which cannot be divorced from

it.

Sunderji has beautifully pointed out that Indian Spiritual soil has always

been rich and fertile. Sunderji states, " This same soil continues to

produce the choicest of Divine flowers - Ramakrishna and all his disciples,

Tagore, Aurobindo,

Ramana, Nisargadatta, Krishnamurty, Sai Baba, Narayana Guru,

Chandrashekahrendra Sarasvati[Kanchi] and Bharati[sringeri], Yogananda, Ram

Tirtha, Anandamayi Ma, Ammachi, and the list goes on. So the surface

appearances do not necessarily reflect the quality of the soil. "

I am indeed in complete agreement with Sunderji. Carl Jung when speaking of

the Sage of Arunachala, Ramana Maharshi said that, "He is the whitest

(purest) spot on a white land." We know that and need no convincing.

It seems to me that the existence of one truth on the relative plane does

not necessarily contradict another truth and both can exist simultaneously.

When I saw the verses posted (given below again) my feeling was that they

had been written from a male perspective. Again, I am not a scholar of

scriptures but most of the authors appear to be males. This may be the

reason why certain verses tend to depict women in a negative light and

suggest that they are the cause of keeping the male aspirant from the goal

of Moksha. I wonder why the authors do not make the same point on a frequent

basis about Men, that they keep female aspirants from reaching Moksha by

binding them in various ways!

While I respect the intent and spirit of the verses, some of them at least

do appear to me to have a social context and an implicit bias embedded

within them against women. Given the actual history of the treatment of

Indian women, it does give one some pause.

Here are the verses that brought forth my comments.

pada api yuvatiiM bhikshuH na spR^ishet daaraviim api .

spR^ishan kariiva badhyeta kariNyaa a~Ngasa~NgataH .. 13..

A begging ascetic should not touch even with his foot even the wooden

figure of a youthful woman; if he touched it, he would be chained

like the elephant brought in contact with a she-elephant. 13 .

______________

_________________-

na adhigachchhet striyaM praaj~naH karhichit mR^ityum aatmanaH .

bala adhikaiH sa hanyeta gajaiH anyaiH gajaH yathaa .. 14..

A wise man should never seek a woman, who is his death [as it were];

[for] he might be killed by other more powerful persons [after her]

just as an elephant is killed by stronger tuskers. 15 .

Kuntimaddi Sadananda [k_sadananda]

Saturday, February 10, 2001 6:30 PM

advaitin

RE: Shri Dattatreya's Teachers - Teacher #13 :

Elephant