Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 >This discussion is getting more and more interesting. It started somewhere >and going somewhere else. However, it is quite interesting. > > >Sadananda said: >>>A personal guru who will lead us by >>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or >>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work. Ravi -By the by the above statement is not mine - I was responding to comment I think by Vaidya Sundaram- Nevertheless I do not disagree with the first statement. There is no mule guru-s who can carry the disciple - the nature of the problem is ignorance. The guru may teach - He provides the pointers - the student has to do his homework in order to own that knowledge. Hence shravanam, mananam, nidhidhyaasana are emphasized - after the saadhana chatushhTayam. My comments are only related to going after a Guru. The scriptures tell us - tat vij~naartham sa gurumevaabhi gachchhet samit paaNiH shotriyam brahma nishhTam|| The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam - These two words are pregnant with meaning. It implies that teacher must be one who has realized -(otherwise it will be like blind leading the blind as KaTa. Up. says) - he has realized that He is Brahman - That means- he has realized that - sarvabhuutasta maatmaanam sarvabhuutanicha aatmani - all beings are in me and I am in all beings - he is akartha and abhokta - For there is neither a teacher nor a disciple to teach from his reference. So teacher exists only from the point of the student. Since now the brahman himself is teaching - essentially it is the Lord or Iswara himself using the equipments of the teacher (body, mind and intellect), Teacher is nothing other than manifestation brahman himself. The pryer we do that - guru brahma guru vishNu etc is a factual statement. The second qualification is he must be shrotriyaH - This has several implications - first he must be knowledgable of the shrutiies - meaning upanishads here that deal with j~nanakaanDa. shruti means that which he has heard - it also means he must have heard from his teacher - obviously his teacher from his teacher - thus he must belong to a guruparamapara or a sampradaaya teacher who has not only learned shruti-s but also learned how to teach from his teacher. Another implication is not only he knows what to teach being himself brahmanishhTa, he should be able to communicate that knowledge to the student. Lot of people know the subject but cannot teach. A teacher has to comedown the level of the student and be able to communicate to him so that he can be helped. A teacher like Bhagavaan Ramana maharshi can teach only those that are able to tune to that level. He was teaching in silence. A techer like Swami Chinmayananda is for those who are eager to listen to the Giita and upanishads in the language they can understand. Hence I said a proper teacher will come for the suitable student. That is the law of nature. One more aspect involved in the above sloka - How does one know a teacher is brhamanishhTa or not? - A student will never be able to test - there are no litmus tests to know for others that one is brahmanishhTa. All the indications given in scriptures is only meant for self-test, including the Stitapraj~na lakshaNa in Giita. Then what is the use of asking to approach the teacher who is brahmainishhTa? A student after long association with a teacher feels in his own heart that he is my teacher and he is brahmanishhTa. Narendra had lot of questions before he took RamakrishNa paramahamsa as his Teacher. In olden times, when the student approaches a gurukula - teacher just keeps him for several years -it is meant for mutual observation - teacher will be observing the student whether he is really qualified student or not and student also will be observing whether the particular teacher lives the values he teaches. - jaDabharata story in upanishads is very good example. Since it is almost impossible to judge whether a teacher is brahmanishhTa or not - it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student is directed to a particular teacher. The teacher after observing knows the student and guides to proper teacher where he learn. Paul Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti. Shankara says in VivekachuuDaamani - durlabham trayamevaitad devanugraha hetukam manushyatvam mumukshatvama mahaapurushha samprayaH|| These three things are difficult to get - birth as a human being, and even after human birth, the intese desire for liberation and finally the acquiantence with the teacher or great soul - these are indeed only due the blessings of the Lord. Shankara also indicates the order here - being man as Shree Ananda Hudli - pointed out that one is human only because of the blessings of the intellect - ahaara nidra bhayamaitunancha saamaanaya metat pashhubiH naraanaam| bhuddhirhi tesham adhiko visheshhaH buddhyaavihiinaaH pashhubhiH samaanaaH|| Eating, sleeping and producing are common for animals and man. It is only the buddhi or intellect that makes man different from animals and if he does not use it, he is as good as an animal. It is blessing indeed to be born as human since it is said that there are 85,000 of varieties of living entities and one could have been any one of those. But after acquiring this rare birth - only a very few percent are interested in the Vedanata - and that too adviata vedanta - Bhagavaan Dattatraya says in his very first sloka of Avadhuuta Giita - to have adviata vaasana among all is indeed a blessing from the Lord. Then the association with the great soul who can teach is - due to merits of many lives. That is what every student of Vedanta feels when he approaches the right teacher. To answer your question - a Student cannot know if the teacher is established in Brahman or not. One westerner asked Swami Chinmayanandaji - Sir there are so many guru-s comming to US. How do we know who is the right teacher and who is the wrong teacher? Why cannot India send only those who are really qualified rather than confusing the public here since many are claiming that they are perfect teachers. He just laughed aloud and said - when you go to grocery store, you go to buy things you need. you cannot complain to the store manager why is he selling all these others things you do not need. People come for buying different things and we cannot complain that manager should not be selling all these. Lord has to make sure everyone gets the right teacher he deserves. When we go in search of things we know what we want to buy - and by mistake we buy something (without seeing the ingredients) - just because we bought we do not use it - we may return back to the store - but in the process we learned at least one thing we need to learn - The product may be intrinsically great but that is not what we want at that time - At least now we have learned a very important lesson from that experience - that is we should look carefully for the ingredient whether that is conducive for our taste or need or not. Hence one has to use ones intellect until one discovers the teacher and the intellect is completely surrendered - since shraddha is important for learning - shaastrasya guruvaakyasya satyabudhyaavadhaaranaa - is the shradda -faith in the words of the teacher and shaastra that the teaching is the truth. That comes slowly with close association with the teacher. >How do we know who is the right Guru for us? Paul Brunton, as you all may >know, had done a lot of travel and search for a true guru (Source:A search >in Secret India). He finally met Ramana Maharishi and his search was over. >Does that mean that he was not ready for years before he got his guru? He >did not settle for someone easily. > >My concept is that a Guru is one who is a realized soul already or who is >pursuing the path to realization vigorously, in terms of Sadhana and >preaching. He/she should have sound knowledge of what he is talking about. >He is the one who gives us hope about finding the Truth. I think that it is >true for me and anyone else who is interested in Jnana and liberation. > >Sometimes we find that some of the Gurus pursue realization and do not >achieve it. This could happen because they themselves do not practise >seriously what they preach and they become fallen gurus (sometimes in >character too!!!). What happens if we end up with one of such Gurus? Our >devotion to that person could be really sincere and very true from our >hearts, but our Karma did not help. I think I have answered already most of the questions. Look at this way - there is no wrong guru - only wrong student. This is because if the student did not use his god-given gift - intellect - we cannot blame the teacher for that - even if the teacher is not proper and the student learns later that fact - implies that he had the right teacher to teach that student that he did not use intellect properly - also now the student is now better educated in selecting the right teacher - in that sense that particular teacher was indeed the right teacher for that student since he needed to learn that fact fist. What one can do is follow Shankara's advice in Bhajagovindam sat sanghatve nissangatvam nissangatve nirmohatvam nirmohatve nischala tatvam nischalatatve jiivanmuktaH Have the company of good - that includes books, study of scriptures, following sadhana in terms of karma , bhakti and j~naan yoga-s and use your intellect in selecting your company - shama and dama, titiiksha etc. Meet mahatmaas and listen to their good words - One need not accept them as our guru-s but satsangha is always important. Slowly one discovers the teacher he needs. There is no quality tests for a teacher - there are self tests for the students - Am getting benefited from the teachings or not - Am I following the teachings with full heart and soul. How far I have progressed. Does the company of the teacher helps my mind to quieten or does it agitate - One cannot judge the motives and actions of others correctly - but one can judge ones own motives and the actions - that is the litmus test. Am I getting the benefit from the company of this person - this book this environment - all this include satsangh- Hari OM! Sadanadna >Do we have to really do some quality tests to follow someone? If so, how >long or do we we wait indefinitely to find the right one? How do I qualify >myself for the right guru - do I read scriptures enough? To summarize, what >is that we should do to find the right guru? > >God bless, >Ravi > >>"K. Sadananda" <sada >>List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara >><ADVAITA-L >>ADVAITA-L >>Re: Advaita in 20th Century >>Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500 >> >>> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the >>>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by >>>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by >>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or >>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work. >>>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in". >> >>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a >>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his >>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a >>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have >>experienced this in my own life. >> >> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall >>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The >>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature. >>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification >>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books >>whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come >>when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the >>form of the teacher if he is ready . >> >>No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can >>forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom >>he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart >>communication at that level. >> >>Hari Om! >>Sadananda >>-- >>K. Sadananda >>Code 6323 >>Naval Research Laboratory >>Washington D.C. 20375 >>Voice (202)767-2117 >>Fax:(202)767-2623 > >_______________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 OM Pranam An exposition of PRACTICAL 20'th century Advaita in vivid, daily life, experiences is given by Sri Swami Venkatesanandaji in his " LIVING AT THE FEET OF GURUDEV IN THE ASHRAM" available at: http://www.dlsmd.org/teachings/venkatesananda/liveingfeetgur u.htm This is always refreshing to read, and shows many facets of Practical Vedanta. I recommend everyone to read it COMPLETELY. Pranam OM > >This discussion is getting more and more interesting. It started somewhere > >and going somewhere else. However, it is quite interesting. > > > > > >Sadananda said: > >>>A personal guru who will lead us by > >>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or > >>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work. > > Ravi -By the by the above statement is not mine - I was responding to > comment I think by Vaidya Sundaram- > Nevertheless I do not disagree with the first statement. There is no > mule guru-s who can carry the disciple - the nature of the problem is > ignorance. The guru may teach - He provides the pointers - the > student has to do his homework in order to own that knowledge. Hence > shravanam, mananam, nidhidhyaasana are emphasized - after the > saadhana chatushhTayam. My comments are only related to going after > a Guru. The scriptures tell us - > tat vij~naartham sa gurumevaabhi gachchhet > samit paaNiH shotriyam brahma nishhTam|| > The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB > related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully > estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam - > These two words are pregnant with meaning. It implies that teacher > must be one who has realized -(otherwise it will be like blind > leading the blind as KaTa. Up. says) - he has realized that He is > Brahman - That means- he has realized that - sarvabhuutasta > maatmaanam sarvabhuutanicha aatmani - all beings are in me and I am > in all beings - he is akartha and abhokta - For there is neither a > teacher nor a disciple to teach from his reference. So teacher > exists only from the point of the student. Since now the brahman > himself is teaching - essentially it is the Lord or Iswara himself > using the equipments of the teacher (body, mind and intellect), > Teacher is nothing other than manifestation brahman himself. The > pryer we do that - guru brahma guru vishNu etc is a factual statement. > The second qualification is he must be shrotriyaH - This has several > implications - first he must be knowledgable of the shrutiies - > meaning upanishads here that deal with j~nanakaanDa. shruti means > that which he has heard - it also means he must have heard from his > teacher - obviously his teacher from his teacher - thus he must > belong to a guruparamapara or a sampradaaya teacher who has not only > learned shruti-s but also learned how to teach from his teacher. > Another implication is not only he knows what to teach being himself > brahmanishhTa, he should be able to communicate that knowledge to the > student. Lot of people know the subject but cannot teach. A teacher > has to comedown the level of the student and be able to communicate > to him so that he can be helped. A teacher like Bhagavaan Ramana > maharshi can teach only those that are able to tune to that level. > He was teaching in silence. A techer like Swami Chinmayananda is for > those who are eager to listen to the Giita and upanishads in the > language they can understand. Hence I said a proper teacher will > come for the suitable student. That is the law of nature. > > One more aspect involved in the above sloka - How does one know a > teacher is brhamanishhTa or not? - A student will never be able to > test - there are no litmus tests to know for others that one is > brahmanishhTa. All the indications given in scriptures is only meant > for self-test, including the Stitapraj~na lakshaNa in Giita. Then > what is the use of asking to approach the teacher who is > brahmainishhTa? A student after long association with a teacher > feels in his own heart that he is my teacher and he is brahmanishhTa. > Narendra had lot of questions before he took RamakrishNa paramahamsa > as his Teacher. In olden times, when the student approaches a > gurukula - teacher just keeps him for several years -it is meant for > mutual observation - teacher will be observing the student whether he > is really qualified student or not and student also will be > observing whether the particular teacher lives the values he teaches. > - jaDabharata story in upanishads is very good example. Since it is > almost impossible to judge whether a teacher is brahmanishhTa or not > - it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student > is directed to a particular teacher. The teacher after observing > knows the student and guides to proper teacher where he learn. Paul > Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti. > Shankara says in VivekachuuDaamani - > durlabham trayamevaitad devanugraha hetukam > manushyatvam mumukshatvama mahaapurushha samprayaH|| > > These three things are difficult to get - birth as a human being, and > even after human birth, the intese desire for liberation and finally > the acquiantence with the teacher or great soul - these are indeed > only due the blessings of the Lord. Shankara also indicates the > order here - being man as Shree Ananda Hudli - pointed out that one > is human only because of the blessings of the intellect - > ahaara nidra bhayamaitunancha saamaanaya metat pashhubiH naraanaam| > bhuddhirhi tesham adhiko visheshhaH buddhyaavihiinaaH pashhubhiH > samaanaaH|| > > Eating, sleeping and producing are common for animals and man. It is > only the buddhi or intellect that makes man different from animals > and if he does not use it, he is as good as an animal. > It is blessing indeed to be born as human since it is said that there > are 85,000 of varieties of living entities and one could have been > any one of those. But after acquiring this rare birth - only a very > few percent are interested in the Vedanata - and that too adviata > vedanta - Bhagavaan Dattatraya says in his very first sloka of > Avadhuuta Giita - to have adviata vaasana among all is indeed a > blessing from the Lord. Then the association with the great soul who > can teach is - due to merits of many lives. That is what every > student of Vedanta feels when he approaches the right teacher. > > To answer your question - a Student cannot know if the teacher is > established in Brahman or not. > > One westerner asked Swami Chinmayanandaji - Sir there are so many > guru-s comming to US. How do we know who is the right teacher and > who is the wrong teacher? Why cannot India send only those who are > really qualified rather than confusing the public here since many are > claiming that they are perfect teachers. > > He just laughed aloud and said - when you go to grocery store, you go > to buy things you need. you cannot complain to the store manager why > is he selling all these others things you do not need. People come > for buying different things and we cannot complain that manager > should not be selling all these. Lord has to make sure everyone gets > the right teacher he deserves. When we go in search of things we > know what we want to buy - and by mistake we buy something (without > seeing the ingredients) - just because we bought we do not use it - > we may return back to the store - but in the process we learned at > least one thing we need to learn - The product may be intrinsically > great but that is not what we want at that time - At least now we > have learned a very important lesson from that experience - that is > we should look carefully for the ingredient whether that is conducive > for our taste or need or not. Hence one has to use ones intellect > until one discovers the teacher and the intellect is completely > surrendered - since shraddha is important for learning - shaastrasya > guruvaakyasya satyabudhyaavadhaaranaa - is the shradda - faith in the > words of the teacher and shaastra that the teaching is the truth. > That comes slowly with close association with the teacher. > > > >How do we know who is the right Guru for us? Paul Brunton, as you all may > >know, had done a lot of travel and search for a true guru (Source:A search > >in Secret India). He finally met Ramana Maharishi and his search was over. > >Does that mean that he was not ready for years before he got his guru? He > >did not settle for someone easily. > > > >My concept is that a Guru is one who is a realized soul already or who is > >pursuing the path to realization vigorously, in terms of Sadhana and > >preaching. He/she should have sound knowledge of what he is talking about. > >He is the one who gives us hope about finding the Truth. I think that it is > >true for me and anyone else who is interested in Jnana and liberation. > > > >Sometimes we find that some of the Gurus pursue realization and do not > >achieve it. This could happen because they themselves do not practise > >seriously what they preach and they become fallen gurus (sometimes in > >character too!!!). What happens if we end up with one of such Gurus? Our > >devotion to that person could be really sincere and very true from our > >hearts, but our Karma did not help. > > I think I have answered already most of the questions. Look at this > way - there is no wrong guru - only wrong student. This is because > if the student did not use his god-given gift - intellect - we cannot > blame the teacher for that - even if the teacher is not proper and > the student learns later that fact - implies that he had the right > teacher to teach that student that he did not use intellect properly > - also now the student is now better educated in selecting the right > teacher - in that sense that particular teacher was indeed the right > teacher for that student since he needed to learn that fact fist. > What one can do is follow Shankara's advice in Bhajagovindam > sat sanghatve nissangatvam > nissangatve nirmohatvam > nirmohatve nischala tatvam > nischalatatve jiivanmuktaH > Have the company of good - that includes books, study of scriptures, > following sadhana in terms of karma , bhakti and j~naan yoga-s and > use your intellect in selecting your company - shama and dama, > titiiksha etc. Meet mahatmaas and listen to their good words - One > need not accept them as our guru-s but satsangha is always important. > Slowly one discovers the teacher he needs. > > There is no quality tests for a teacher - there are self tests for > the students - Am getting benefited from the teachings or not - Am I > following the teachings with full heart and soul. How far I have > progressed. Does the company of the teacher helps my mind to quieten > or does it agitate - One cannot judge the motives and actions of > others correctly - but one can judge ones own motives and the actions > - that is the litmus test. Am I getting the benefit from the company > of this person - this book this environment - all this include > satsangh- > > Hari OM! > Sadanadna > > > >Do we have to really do some quality tests to follow someone? If so, how > >long or do we we wait indefinitely to find the right one? How do I qualify > >myself for the right guru - do I read scriptures enough? To summarize, what > >is that we should do to find the right guru? > > > >God bless, > >Ravi > > > >>"K. Sadananda" <sada > >>List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara > >><ADVAITA-L > >>ADVAITA-L > >>Re: Advaita in 20th Century > >>Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500 > >> > >>> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the > >>>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by > >>>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by > >>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or > >>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work. > >>>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in". > >> > >>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a > >>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his > >>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a > >>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have > >>experienced this in my own life. > >> > >> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall > >>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The > >>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature. > >>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification > >>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books > >>whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come > >>when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the > >>form of the teacher if he is ready . > >> > >>No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can > >>forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom > >>he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart > >>communication at that level. > >> > >>Hari Om! > >>Sadananda > >>-- > >>K. Sadananda > >>Code 6323 > >>Naval Research Laboratory > >>Washington D.C. 20375 > >>Voice (202)767-2117 > >>Fax:(202)767-2623 > > > >_________ ______ > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > -- > K. Sadananda > Code 6323 > Naval Research Laboratory > Washington D.C. 20375 > Voice (202)767-2117 > Fax:(202)767-2623 > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server > For details, visit: /local/news.html > Post message: advaitin > Subscribe: advaitin- > Un: advaitin > URL to Advaitin: advaitin > File folder: advaitin > Link Folder: advaitin/links > Messages Folder: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > ------------ Get FREE E-Mail http://www.valuemail.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Namaste, Notice of: "Vedanta in the Third Millenium" A 3-Day Conference with Swamis of Ramakrishna Mission June 22-24, 2001 at Vivekananda Monastery & Retreat, 6723 122nd Ave., Ganges, MI 49408 Tel. [616]543-4545 TO REGISTER: Contact Vivekananda Vedanta Society. 5423 S. Hyde Park Blvd. Chicago, IL 60615 'Phone [773] 363-0027 Regards, s. advaitin, "K. Sadananda" <sada@a...> wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 SAD-GURU MAHIMAA dR^ishhtanto naiva dR^ishhtas-tribhuvana jaTHare sadguror-jnaana-daatuH sparshhas-cet tatra kalpyaH sa nayati yadaho svarNataam ashma-saaraM | na sparshatvam tathaapi shR^ita-caraNa-yuge sadguruH sviiya-shishhye sviiyam saamyam vidhatte bhavati nirupamastena va'laukiko'pi || In all the three worlds (tribhuvana jaTHare), there is nothing at all comparable (dR^ishtanto naiva dR^ishhtaH) to a real guru (sadguruH), who imparts spiritual knowledge (jnaana dataa ). A sadguru does not just teach. He transforms his disciple from an ignorant person into a jnaani. This is a miracle by itself. A philosopher's stone (sparshaH) also miraculously converts a piece of iron into gold (yadaho! ashma-saaram svarNataam nayati). But the comparison stops there. The sparsha stone does not convert the piece of iron into another piece of sparsha (na sparshatvam nayati), capable of converting other pieces of iron into gold. Whereas the sad-guru not only transforms his disciple, but also bestows (vidhatte) on his disciple (sviiye shishhye) the power to be equal to the guru himself (sviiyam saamyam) -- i.e. fitness to become a guru in his turn and transform other ignorant persons. This is why a sadguru is incomparable (nirupamaH) and unique (alaukikaH) Thus is a guru parmparaa established. V.M.Sundaram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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