A Jnani dreams

[Guest guest]

Part-1:

In Brihad-Aranyaka Upanishad, Ajatasatru explains to Gargya,

"When the soul is in the land of dreams, then all the worlds belong

to the soul. A person can be great or live in conditions high or low.

And even as a great king of this earth takes his attendants with him

and goes about his dominions wherever he desires, so the soul of man

takes the powers of life with him and wanders in the land of dreams

according to his desires".

 

Part-2:

Gita Chapter 2 points out effective way to move among objects of

senses without getting attached, this nullifying desire.

 

A Sage such as above achieves tranquility, peace, wisdom, divine

state and the bliss of God (as per Gita ch.2).

 

If we corelate parts 1&2, the question now is, does such a Sage have

dreams at all ? My guess is, probably not.

 

Comments and clarifications are welcome.

 

With Love,

Raghava

[Guest guest]

--- raghavakaluri wrote:

> Part-1:

> In Brihad-Aranyaka Upanishad, Ajatasatru explains to

> Gargya,

> "When the soul is in the land of dreams, then all

> the worlds belong

> to the soul. A person can be great or live in

> conditions high or low.

> And even as a great king of this earth takes his

> attendants with him

> and goes about his dominions wherever he desires, so

> the soul of man

> takes the powers of life with him and wanders in the

> land of dreams

> according to his desires".

>

 

 

1. When people asked Sri Ramana Maharshi whether a

Jnani has dreams, his answer was yes, but the jnani

knows that it is a dream just like he knows his waking

state is also a dream. The jnani remains as Himself

unconcerned about the three states that pass on.

 

2. I am a bit mystified about your Brihad-Aranyaka

Upanishad quotation regarding two points,

a) If he roams about in a land of dreams seeking

his desires , then he is not a Jnani.

b) The quote seems to imply that you do as you like

in dreams which is not the case with a regular person.

You do not in general have control over a dream.

Therefore this neither refers to a Jnani nor a

Sadhaka.

How do you explain this quote ?

 

Anand

 

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

--- Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo wrote:

>

> 1. When people asked Sri Ramana Maharshi whether a

> Jnani has dreams, his answer was yes, but the jnani

> knows that it is a dream just like he knows his

> waking

> state is also a dream. The jnani remains as Himself

> unconcerned about the three states that pass on.

>

This is interesting. When one knows that he/she is

dreaming, thru what does he/she know ? Becasue, mind

is already busy dreaming. Intellect cannot know such.

The witness is beyond mind,body,intellect. Could it be

the same mind that dreams also knows that it is

dreaming. Then, by definition, it is not a dream;

because dream is an out-of-control flow.

 

Please do not mistake what I said ; I am trying to

understand.

> 2. I am a bit mystified about your Brihad-Aranyaka

> Upanishad quotation regarding two points,

> a) If he roams about in a land of dreams seeking

> his desires , then he is not a Jnani.

 

Yes, this was my observation too.

Dreams are produced by desires.

Jnani has no desires.

Therefore, Jnani has no dreams.

> b) The quote seems to imply that you do as you

> like

> in dreams which is not the case with a regular

> person.

> You do not in general have control over a dream.

> Therefore this neither refers to a Jnani nor a

> Sadhaka.

> How do you explain this quote ?

By as you like, it means the same as 'manisfested form

of desires, manifested randomly without corelation

between two events'. I think it is only semantics,

but, the intent of quote is same as what you stated.

 

With Love,

Raghava

 

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

> Question on who is it that says I am dreaming while

> a dream is in progress

It occurred to me after I posted my previous entry

that in addition to mind and intelligence, we may have

to consider more faculties in trying to find out who

is dreaming:

- Manas

- Buddhi

- Ahamkaram

- Chitta

It is probably not just mind and intelligence alone

which are in play which constitute a karmic entity.

> There is a book called 'svapna-chintaamaNi',

> detailing the significance of the dreamed objects.

SunderJi, Thanks for the information.

> A spiritual can get appropriate directions

> even in dreams.

>

We have in the Old Testament the prophetic dreams of a

king which were interpreted accurately by Joseph, if I

remember it right.

If one can interpret one's own dreams (prophetic,

spiritual guidance, mirror-of-internal-desires,

mirror-of-external-influences, etc), SunderJi also

stated above that one may get appropriate guidance

from dreams.

 

With Love,

Raghava

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Hi everybody,

 

They call this gentleman of leisure- Sandeep and my two bits...........

 

-

Raghavarao Kaluri

advaitin

Tuesday, March 20, 2001 03:07 AM

Re: A Jnani dreams

 

 

--- Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo wrote:

>

> 1. When people asked Sri Ramana Maharshi whether a

> Jnani has dreams, his answer was yes, but the jnani

> knows that it is a dream just like he knows his

> waking

> state is also a dream. The jnani remains as Himself

> unconcerned about the three states that pass on.

>

This is interesting. When one knows that he/she is

dreaming, thru what does he/she know ?

 

 

 

San:

Through a dis-indetification with the body-mind complex and the hoopla it gets

into either in sleep dream or in waking-dream (No difference between the two)

 

 

Becasue, mind

is already busy dreaming. Intellect cannot know such.

The witness is beyond mind,body,intellect. Could it be

the same mind that dreams also knows that it is

dreaming.

 

 

 

San:

 

No.

The moment, the mind knows it is dreaming the sleep-dream it "awakens" into

the awake-dreaming.

The moment, when it awakens to the awake-dreaming, Aaaaahaaaa.

 

 

Then, by definition, it is not a dream;

because dream is an out-of-control flow.

 

Please do not mistake what I said ; I am trying to

understand.

> 2. I am a bit mystified about your Brihad-Aranyaka

> Upanishad quotation regarding two points,

> a) If he roams about in a land of dreams seeking

> his desires , then he is not a Jnani.

 

Yes, this was my observation too.

Dreams are produced by desires.

Jnani has no desires.

Therefore, Jnani has no dreams.

 

 

 

San:

A Jnani, a sage, continues to have a body-mind complex which as per it's

innate conditioning, "wiring", continues to desire, dream, i.e live out the

alloted role of the particular body-mind complex in which awakeing or

apperception has occurred.

 

In that respect there is not a whit of difference between a circus clown and a

sage.

 

The essential difference between the two lies in the apperception that it is

the Impersonal functioning carrying on functioning using the body-mind complex

as an instrument whereas the clown feel it is his/her doing/dreaming and hence

it is his success or failure and hence it is his joy or suffering.

 

Ramana may have given up Chicken Biryani (or whatever) but continued to eat

bananas to assuage the desire of hunger of the body-mind compelx which Society

labelled Ramana.

 

 

> b) The quote seems to imply that you do as you

> like

> in dreams which is not the case with a regular

> person.

 

There is an apparent non-volitionality in the sleep-dream, but really it is

the sleeping dreamer who has created these apparent non-volitional characters in

his/her sleep-dream.

 

The same is the situation in the awake-dream.

"You" and the "multititude others" with whom you relate during waking hours

are exactly like the same dreamer characters of the night-dream.

 

Who is the dreamer of this awake-dream?

 

Aaaaahhhhhhhha

 

 

> You do not in general have control over a dream.

> Therefore this neither refers to a Jnani nor a

> Sadhaka.

> How do you explain this quote ?

 

A clown or a sage, both have body-mind complexes with alloted roles, to be

fructified through the mechansim of conditioning.

 

In one, there is nobody to be bother about what is happening, which is seen as

an Impersonal functioning, in other there is an entity seeking an explanation of

why it happens what happens<LOL>

 

Mis conceptual dos centavos

 

 

Cheers

 

Sandeep

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We can look at these states of illusion as two fold.

with awareness and without awareness. The former we

call either waking or dream but in reality it is just

the play of impressions on consciousness. The latter

is consciousness remaining subdued due to inertia.

In the play of impressions, we are asked to catch hold

of the awareness and not the impression. This is

enquiry. It is like the Shruti note of music which

blends all the other notes and remains as the

underling theme. If the awareness is caught, one

remains in that state, the impressions may vanish or

may not vanish. If they vanish, it is a state of

samadhi. That is, it is Jagrat-Sushupti. There is

awareness but no impressions on the surface. The

impressions may still persist.

There are various planes of consciousness at which a

manifestation of impressions can occur. So long as the

awareness (Nitya) is held on, the impressions (the

Leela) do not harm one.

I guess this is what Sri Ramakrishna meant when He

said, "Tie the non-dual knowledge to a corner of your

cloth and do what you want in the world".

The state of abidance in the Self and enjoying the

play of maya, be it waking or dream is termed as

Vijnana by Sri Ramakrishna and as Sahaja Samadhi by

Sri Ramana Maharshi.That is my understanding.

 

Anand

 

 

 

--- Raghavarao Kaluri <raghavakaluri wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> > Question on who is it that says I am dreaming

> while

> > a dream is in progress

> It occurred to me after I posted my previous entry

> that in addition to mind and intelligence, we may

> have

> to consider more faculties in trying to find out who

> is dreaming:

> - Manas

> - Buddhi

> - Ahamkaram

> - Chitta

> It is probably not just mind and intelligence alone

> which are in play which constitute a karmic entity.

>

> > There is a book called

> 'svapna-chintaamaNi',

> > detailing the significance of the dreamed objects.

> SunderJi, Thanks for the information.

>

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

namaste. My humble observations on this topic.

 

It is important we distinguish the two perspectives here:

(i) from the perspective of the embodiment of jnAnam,

(ii) from the perspective of the mortals who see that embodiment

of jnAnam.

 

I think usage of the word 'jnAni' is a contradiction in terms.

It is we the mortals who coin the word 'jnAni', for e.g. we

say 'RamaNa maharShi is a jnAni' referring to entity what we

call RamaNa maharShi. From the perspective of that so-called

'entity', there is no RamaNa maharShi, and there is no embodiment.

I prefer to use 'embodiment of jnAnam' rather than the word 'jnAni'.

>From the mortals' perspective: Just like the embodiment of jnAnam

eats, showers, attends to daily activities, the embodiment (of

jnAnam) also sleeps, dreams etc. Depending on our level of ignorance

(avidyA), we ascribe various motives to those activities. These

motives we attribute range from saying he/she is crazy, to saying

he/she is going through those activities due to his/her prArabdha.

 

In reality, as that jIvanmukta sees it, one cannot ascribe a

kartA to those activities. Those activities simply go on. It

is immaterial what the mortals think of these activities.

Jivanmukta is in bliss all the time. Just like there is no kartA

for the eating, showering etc, there is no kartA for the dream.

Thus the activities go on, without an individual doer for the

activities.

 

So, in answer to the question"Does a jnAni dream?", my answer

would be "yes, from the mortal's perspective just like we say

he eats, etc.". But from the jIvanmukta's reality perspective,

there are no states (wake-up, dream, deep-sleep) *for* jIvanmukta.

He/she is in turIyA.

 

Finally, a comment on shri Srinivas' query "...Also what

difference does it make if a Jnani dreams or not!

He/She is a Jnani upon waking up! I don't mean to criticise

the topic but, sincerely attempting to fathom its utility for

a spiritual seeker. How am I gonna be benefited spiritually

by knowing this info about whether a Jnani dreams or not!..."

 

 

I beg to differ from that conclusion. There is a lot to learn from

such analyses. What do we seek? We seek moksha. Moksha is jnAnam,

to know what is real and what is unreal. The analyses attempted

in this thread are, in my view, part of that process.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--

[Guest guest]

Namaste. My humble observations on this topic.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

 

What Shree Murthy gaaru wrote is from my understanding too is the

correct perspective. Who is a j~naani - akartaaham abhoktaaham

-neither doer and nor enjoyer. That is true even for aj~naani too -

but j~naani knows that and aj~naani does not know that. That is all

the difference.

 

The plurality propelled by vaasanaa-s which for dream are

suppressions and oppressions of the waking world - is there as long

as upaadhiis are there - body, mind and intellect. The equipments

belong to prakR^iti. Hence world of plurality in the waking and

dream goes on as long as the equipments are there. But j~naani does

not dream neither aj~naani dreams- but j~naani knows that he does not

dream and aj~naani thinks that he is one who is dreaming. But waking

words and dream worlds are independent of j~naanam - in a way - It

actually Lends its support to them as mayaa adhyakshena prak^iti

suuyate sa charaa charam - under my governer-ship the world of

plurality is projected by the upaadhiis - This is true at micro level

or macro level as Madhava pointed out.

 

From the point of upaadhiis the world of pluralites goes on -

aj~naani thinks he is the upaadhiies and feels he is undergoing the

changing states. j~naani sees himself or as the witness and does not

identify the modifications of the upaadhiis as his modifications.

That is what j~naanam implies.

How does this help - it is helps us to know what j~naanam really

means or involves - It is adhyaasa does not involve a real

trasformation - but understanding of ones true nature.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623