shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

March 25, 2001

praNAms to all.

After a prolonged thought to this matter, I have decided

to change the membership privileges of shri Sandeep

Chatterjee to "This member cannot post". In coming to

this decision, I have taken into account the members'

views, have consulted with the co-moderators and am

following what I think is the right course. If shri

Sandeep wishes to continue posting on this List, I would

request him to communicate with me so that a suitable

arrangement can be made. It is a pity, really, that any

Truth he wishes to communicate is garbled up in so much

noise.

I realize there are some members who are very enthusiastic

of what shri Sandeep has to offer. I have to weigh it

against maintaining the serenity of the List and the

considerable stormy environment his postings can cause

and have caused on the List.

If I were just a member of the List, I would have walked

out of a List which uses such language (as what shri Sandeep

uses). As a moderator, it is my responsibility to see

that the List is a proper environment for the 350 members

of the List. Hence, I have to take this action. Certainly,

advaitin List cannot endorse usage of such loose language

(as shri Sandeep uses) towards the sages and gurus.

This particular episode (the whirlwind presentations of

shri Sandeep) is a valuable lesson for all, particularly

for this list, to tighten the entry requirement and,

may be, the need for some moderation of new members'

postings.

I am most grateful for all the members who have provided

feedback for me both on the List and in private e-mails.

I apologize for the few days of noise that was created

on the List.

I thank you for your understanding.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

Chief Moderator

----------------------------

March 25, 2001

Namaste,

Sincere appreciation for a bold and necessary decision.

Gita [the farmers' song?] will bless you:

ida.n te na atapaskaaya na abhaktaaya kadaachana .

na cha ashushruushhave vaacya.n na cha maa.n yaH abhyasuuyati ..

18:67..

This [which has been taught] to thee is never to be taught to one who

is devoid of austerities, nor to one who is not devoted, nor to one

who does not do service, nor to one who speaks ill of Me.

anudvegakara.n vaakya.n satyaM priya-hita.n cha yat.h .

svaadhyaaya abhyasana.n cha eva vaa~Nmaya.n tapaH uchyate .. 17.15..

The speech which causes no excitement and is true, as also pleasant

and beneficial, and also the practice of sacred recitation, are said

to form the austerity of speech.

The profound [or abysmal may be more accurate] knowledge expressed by

this "Song of the Aquarian Avadhuta", which can equate the highest

thought with the epithet of 'farmers' song, and tapas with tap-dancing

deserves to be shunned for our own sanity.

Regards,

s.

advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote:

>

> praNAms to all.

>

> After a prolonged thought to this matter, I have decided

> to change the membership privileges of shri Sandeep

> Chatterjee to "This member cannot post". In coming to

> this decision,

March 25, 2001

Namaste,

I fully agree with Sri Sunderji on his remarks regarding the

corrective action undertaken by the Chief Moderator. This action

became necessary because Sri Sandeep refused to obey the list

policies and guidelines inspite of repeated appeal by Sri Gummuluru.

This is the time for all of us to show our appreciation to Sri

Gummuluruji, the Chief Moderator of the List for reestablishing

serenity and peace. The best way that we can show our support to him

by taking necessary extra time while posting messages to the list. We

the members of this list want to learn from each other on how to

become better human beings. We are fully aware that we should remove

negative tendencies and develop positive attitude in our daily life.

Positive mental attitude is a necessary ingredient for Spiritual

growth. Mind serves as an agent of the sense organs and it registers,

stores and releases the messages of the sense organs. Corrupt

messages will contaminate the mind. Spiritual growth requires purity

of mind and we can preserve its purity by avoiding pollutants. Why

not we start from today to divert our attention toward focusing on

ideas that can enrich our life and soul. To realize our True Human

Nature, we need purity of mind. How can we maintain peace if

everyone other than us in this universe is not at peace?.

Let me share with you the wisdom of Thiruvalluvar, a Tamil Saint who

wrote TiruKural which describes the various aspects of human virtue.

The first ten verses presented below describes the importance of

using pleasant words in daily communication. The second ten verses

explain the advantages of avoiding pointless discussions. The seers

and sages of Vedic Period always displayed love, kindness, and

tolerance toward their fellow citizens. People who lived during the

Vedic Period were able to enjoy their life by sharing and bearing.

The Vedic spirit of sharing and bearing was wide spread from the

northern foothills of Himalayas to the southern ocean beaches of

Kanyakumari. Thiruvalluvar presents the Vedic Spirit through Kural in

the following verses. Kural represents the moral Tamil replica of

Bhagavad Gita using short verses of two lines.

====================================

Importance of writing pleasant words

Holy Kural: chapter 10

====================================

Pleasant words fall from the lips of virtuous men,

Full of tenderness and free from deceit.

Better than a gift given with a joyous heart

Are sweet words spoken with a cheerful smile.

A kindly countenance and sweet words

Spoken from the heart are virtue's way.

Poverty-provoking sorrow will not pursue

Those who speak joy-producing words to all they meet.

Humility and pleasant words are the jewels

That adorn a man; there are none other.

If a man seeks good works while speaking sweet words,

His virtues will wax and his vices wane.

Words yield spiritual rewards and moral excellence

When they do not wander far from usefulness and agreeableness.

Sweet speech which is stranger to pettiness

Imparts pleasure not only in this life, but in the next.

Why would anyone speak cruel words,

Having observed the happiness that kind words confer?

To utter harsh words when sweet ones would serve

Is like eating unripe fruits when ripe ones are at hand.

=====================================

Significance of Avoiding Pointless Writings

Holy Kural: Chapter 20

=====================================

Everyone is disgusted by a man

Who offends one and all with meaningless chatter.

Uttering useless words to crowds is worse

Than committing unkindnesses toward companions.

A long and pointless discourse itself declares

To all the speaker's lack of worth.

Worthless words are doubly unprofitable: the listeners'

Enjoyment is lost, and the speaker's own virtues vanish.

Prestige and popularity flee the best of men

The moment they speak inane and useless words.

Do not call him a man who enjoys displaying

His own empty words. Call him rather the chaff of men.

Let the wise, if they deem it necessary, speak even unpleasant words,

But it is good if they always refrain from pointless speech.

In search of extraordinary gains, the wise

Will never speak trivial or ungainful words.

The wise, faultless and free from ignorance,

Never utter pointless words, even forgetfully.

In your speaking, say only that which is purposeful.

Never utter words which lack purpose.

The Holy Kural was written by Thiruvalluvar, a weaver who lived with

his wife, Vasuki, in what is today a part of Madras in South India

during first century B.C. This was Tiruvalluvar's only work, and

though it is relatively short, it was sufficient to bring renown to a

humble weaver, making him a venerated sage and lawgiver of the Tamil

People. In the Tamil language "Tiru" means "holy" or "sacred," and

"Kural" means anything that is brief or short. In this case it

describes the very difficult and disciplined venpa meter in which the

verses were written. Each verse is extremely short, containing only

two lines of fourteen syllables. In fact, it is the shortest form of

stanza in the Tamil language. In many ways these couplets are similar

to the Sanskrit sloka. The entire scripture consists of 133 chapters

with each chapter describes a different aspect of human virtue or

human fault. To properly understand his perspective on a subject, each

of the ten couplets must be read, for they are like facets of a gem -

all reflecting the light of his understanding slightly differently and

adding to the richness of his comprehension. (This summary

introduction also comes from the Web page referenced below).

Reference: Kural a Tamil literary work on Human Ethics is available in

the Internet at: http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/kural/

The information contained in this document may not be published for

commercial purposes without the prior written authority of Himalayan

Academy. (The publisher's request is that the material not be used in

magazines or newspapers that are for sale without their permission.

Redistribution electronically (for free), photocopying to give to

classes or friends, all that is okay.) This copyright notice may not

be removed, or the text edited or changed without the prior written

authority of Himalayan Academy.

warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, sunderh wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> Sincere appreciation for a bold and necessary decision.

March 25, 2001

Dear Sir,

If we find a bad apple in a pile of apples we throw it out immediately. We

do not hesitate. It is the right thing to do. Those who do not follow the

basic tenets of this group should be chucked out very quickly, just like a

bad apple. No hesitation needed. This confirms that the qualifications as an

intellect, a graduate, a student of Advaita or Vedanta, or writer of words

is not a sufficient condition to be part of this group. There has to be a

desire to learn and teach and NO DESIRE to argue for one-up manship.

Thanks for your action.

-- Vis

--

Original Message -----

"Gummuluru Murthy" <gmurthy

Sunday, March 25, 2001 3:40 PM

shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

>

> praNAms to all.

>

> After a prolonged thought to this matter, I have decided

> to change the membership privileges of shri Sandeep

> Chatterjee to "This member cannot post". In coming to

> this decision, I have taken into account the members'

> views, have consulted with the co-moderators and am

> following what I think is the right course. If shri

> Sandeep wishes to continue posting on this List, I would

> request him to communicate with me so that a suitable

> arrangement can be made. It is a pity, really, that any

> Truth he wishes to communicate is garbled up in so much

> noise.

>

> I realize there are some members who are very enthusiastic

> of what shri Sandeep has to offer. I have to weigh it

> against maintaining the serenity of the List and the

> considerable stormy environment his postings can cause

> and have caused on the List.

>

> If I were just a member of the List, I would have walked

> out of a List which uses such language (as what shri Sandeep

> uses). As a moderator, it is my responsibility to see

> that the List is a proper environment for the 350 members

> of the List. Hence, I have to take this action. Certainly,

> advaitin List cannot endorse usage of such loose language

> (as shri Sandeep uses) towards the sages and gurus.

>

> This particular episode (the whirlwind presentations of

> shri Sandeep) is a valuable lesson for all, particularly

> for this list, to tighten the entry requirement and,

> may be, the need for some moderation of new members'

> postings.

>

> I am most grateful for all the members who have provided

> feedback for me both on the List and in private e-mails.

> I apologize for the few days of noise that was created

> on the List.

>

> I thank you for your understanding.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> Chief Moderator

> ----------------------------

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

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>

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>

March 26, 2001

namaste to all.

The following correspondence is attached.

1. SC's letter to GM

2. GM's response to SC

3. SC's further response to GM

This matter is now closed unless SC agrees for the moderation

suggested in the letters. The moderation suggested is not in

diluting the Truth which he wants to convey but presenting the

material in a more dignified way suitable for the List.

Anyone wishing to correspond with SC may do so in private e-mails.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[ 1. SC's letter to GM]

Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:55:26 +0530

Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc

gmurthy

Re: shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

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Hi GM.

Perfectly appropriate.

Action seemingly taken by you is also the action taken by that same

Impersonal functioning.

So "I" have no problem with "your" decision.

However there will be no posting through you on the Adviatin List,

originating through Sandeep.

And if there is a genuine fire in the seekers out on the List, there will

be an understanding on why this method of filter does not work.

Coming to your post, few comments.....

-

Gummuluru Murthy

advaitin

Monday, March 26, 2001 05:10 AM

shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

praNAms to all.

After a prolonged thought to this matter, I have decided

to change the membership privileges of shri Sandeep

Chatterjee to "This member cannot post". In coming to

this decision, I have taken into account the members'

views, have consulted with the co-moderators and am

following what I think is the right course. If shri

Sandeep wishes to continue posting on this List, I would

request him to communicate with me so that a suitable

arrangement can be made. It is a pity, really, that any

Truth he wishes to communicate is garbled up in so much

noise.

San:

Noise to whom?

To you?

I have received so many messages where the same noise seems to have

invoked tears of gratitude.

I realize there are some members who are very enthusiastic

of what shri Sandeep has to offer. I have to weigh it

against maintaining the serenity of the List and the

considerable stormy environment his postings can cause

and have caused on the List.

San:

Is the List about serenity or Truth?

Serenity is a consequence of apperception, not the other way around.

The village idiot also appears similar a serene sage.

If I were just a member of the List, I would have walked

out of a List which uses such language (as what shri Sandeep

uses).

As I was sharing with somebody privately..........

What tone?

And what is the significance of tone?

As I said to somebody on the List, tone, "palatable language" are all

significant, if I wanted to stand for elections on the Advaitin List.

There is no "other" , in which case, whose respect, whose acceptance can

I seek, do I need?

Yes, the pattern of the conditioning of this body-mind-complex is to be

blunt and direct.

Do you know that would be the highest compassion displayed?

Let's come to offense, hurt, upset.

I have yet to see a message that says "Sandeep you said such and such

and I don't accept it and your statement hurt me"

Baloney of "members being hurt", does not impress me.

One joker is offended by my calling the Upanashidic Rishis, singing

farmers.

First of all that's what they were, in terms of occupation, in terms of

making a living.

And thinking that "singing farmers" is a derogatory term, displays your

conditioning and intolera

nce to this class of people and this occupation.

Hilarious, if not pathetic.

Now the more important aspect.

So called Advaitins (or at least claiming to be) getting hurt, offended,

upset!!!!!!!

This is most hilarious.

Who is a Advaitin?

One who has apperceived that there is no "other", the essence of

not-Two.

In such an apperception, who is left to get hurt, who is there to hurt,

either?

It did not occur to these jokers that the true seeking would be to

investigate just "who" in that particular body-mind complex is getting

hurt, offended, upset and what is the source of that hurt, upset?

If somebody slaps me, physically or orally, and anger arises in me, I

must truly be grateful to the other person, who has acted as an instrument

in my learning something about myself, hereto hidden.

That is being on path of seeking.

Not the shit of parroting dead verses from politically edited dead books

As a moderator, it is my responsibility to see

that the List is a proper environment for the 350 members

of the List. Hence, I have to take this action. Certainly,

advaitin List cannot endorse usage of such loose language

(as shri Sandeep uses) towards the sages and gurus.

This particular episode (the whirlwind presentations of

shri Sandeep) is a valuable lesson for all, particularly

for this list, to tighten the entry requirement and,

may be, the need for some moderation of new members'

postings.

I am most grateful for all the members who have provided

feedback for me both on the List and in private e-mails.

I apologize for the few days of noise that was created

on the List.

I thank you for your understanding.

San:

You know GM despite it all, I actually like you.

In your first post, you showed an openeness.

Then you got derailed.

But all appropriate.

In your deepest anguish, in your deepest misery, if you feel

appropriate, I would be available to walk with you, off course

if you feel appropriate, the need to do so.

Have a great life

Cheers

Sandeep

-

[2. GM's response to SC's letter]

Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:07:06 -0330 (NST)

Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc

Re: shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

namaste shri Sandeepji,

I thank you for your letter and for the openness. I do not agree

with some of the comments, but that will be open for discussion.

Now, regarding the subject at hand: Please do not get me wrong.

The List is interested in hearing from you. However, I think that

your putting down of the ancient sages and their works need to be

toned down considerably before the Truth which you are presenting

(I have no doubt that there is semblance of Truth there) can be

grasped and debated. I firmly believe that the Truth which you

wish to present can be presented in much fewer words and most

important in a more gentle fashion. There is no need to use

ROFMLAO while the Truth can be conveyed in a more respectful

fashion.

Gentle words and Truth are not antagonistic to each other.

I do not see why saying of Truth has to be associated with

rough english usage. I earnestly request you to change your

tone of presentation and be an active participant in the List

deliberations. All, on the List, are for knowing the Truth.

It is a pity that discussion of Truth is lost in the discussion

of the symbolism.

You are calling the people on the List as conditioned minds.

You also said in one of your posts that you need not learn

anything from the List. If you want to be a real teacher on the

List, you should know how to teach what you call 'conditioned minds'.

In any case, I would welcome your posts on the List with the

following procedure. I would request shri Ram Chandran, one of

our senior members, to monitor your presentations. He would be

willing to spend time softening the language so that what you

call 'conditioned minds' can appreciate your teachings. I hope

that is acceptable to you.

If you are indeed interested in the presentation of the Truth,

and the discussion of the Truth, and knowing firmly that

presentation of Truth need not be associated with rough

language, I cannot see how you can refuse such an arrangement.

If you permit me, I will present your letter to me and my

response, to the List.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

---

--------

[3. SC's further response to GM]

Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:54:36 +0530

Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc

Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

Re: shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

[The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]

[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]

[some characters may be displayed incorrectly]

Hi GM,

-

"Gummuluru Murthy" <gmurthy

"Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepc

Monday, March 26, 2001 07:07 PM

Re: shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

>

> namaste shri Sandeepji,

>

> I thank you for your letter and for the openness. I do not agree

> with some of the comments, but that will be open for discussion.

>

> Now, regarding the subject at hand: Please do not get me wrong.

> The List is interested in hearing from you. However, I think that

> your putting down of the ancient sages and their works need to be

> toned down considerably

LOL.

Can you tell me which ancient sage have I put down?

before the Truth which you are presenting

> (I have no doubt that there is semblance of Truth there) can be

> grasped and debated. I firmly believe that the Truth which you

> wish to present can be presented in much fewer words and most

> important in a more gentle fashion. There is no need to use

> ROFMLAO while the Truth can be conveyed in a more respectful

> fashion.

>

> Gentle words and Truth are not antagonistic to each other.

> I do not see why saying of Truth has to be associated with

> rough english usage.

There is no need whatsoever.

The only problem is what you term rough, is blunt and straight, for

another. Who decides? And, what arises in Sandeep, in whichever manner

it arises, Sandeep has no say in it's expression.

That such an expression doea not appear on the Advatin List, as I said if

that is to happen, that will happen, iirespective of GM or Sandeep.

Secondly, as I shared with you earlier, words are just sound and in this

age of Web signs on your PC.

It is the recepient's mind which adds the meaning to the sound/sight.

Rough or polite are issues for the receipient to see, as his/her additions

of what is a neutral event.

>From this the bigger thruth can be apperceived.

Events in Life occur and are perfectly neutral.

To these neutral occurring events, we add our judgements and label it good

or bad, polite or rough.

Can you now see, what you suggest, is the perpetuation of the same

"cocoon" behind which we hide and then assume we are seekers of Truth?

> I earnestly request you to change your

> tone of presentation and be an active participant in the List

> deliberations.

Yes, but it cannot be through a filter, you or anybody else.

For the simple reason, that any member of the List has a del key to just

tap, if a particular post from Sandeep or for that matter any body does

not fit in.

> All, on the List, are for knowing the Truth.

> It is a pity that discussion of Truth is lost in the discussion

> of the symbolism.

>

> You are calling the people on the List as conditioned minds.

> You also said in one of your posts that you need not learn

> anything from the List. If you want to be a real teacher on the

> List, you should know how to teach what you call 'conditioned minds'.

How by letting a conditioning, further condition, my response?

GM, my friend, it does not work.

> In any case, I would welcome your posts on the List with the

> following procedure. I would request shri Ram Chandran, one of

> our senior members, to monitor your presentations. He would be

> willing to spend time softening the language so that what you

> call 'conditioned minds' can appreciate your teachings. I hope

> that is acceptable to you.

>

> If you are indeed interested in the presentation of the Truth,

> and the discussion of the Truth, and knowing firmly that

> presentation of Truth need not be associated with rough

> language, I cannot see how you can refuse such an arrangement.

I regret this is not possible.

I will continue to be available to those who are communicating privately.

As I said to you GM, I have no problem with anybody saying "How do you say

such and such, It should be such and such.

Then a dialogue is possible, a walk of togetherness is possible and after

the walk, one can go one's way firm in one's original convictions or seen

the flasity of dearly held "masks".

Whatever, will be perfectly appropriate.

What you are saying is if you want to walk with me, you must get a crutch,

because I use one.

> If you permit me, I will present your letter to me and my

> response, to the List.

That is perfectly fine with me, provided I have your word my reply to you

appears as it was sent to you.

Somehow, I have faith in you GM.<s>

You have possibilities, if you can get out of the inessentials.

What do you do in Life, GM?

Cheers

Sandeep

--\

---

March 27, 2001

Gummuluru Murthy gaaru

My pranams - I concur the decision you made in filtering unfriendly language

of posters. We have maitined the dignity the communications across and

should not compromise these at any cost.

It is unfortunate the Shree Chatterjee's words of truth are packaged using

unparlamentarian language - even if the contents are right, the external

package is bad - it is difficult to enjoy the contents.

I think we should all remember that one can communicate the essense in a

language without hurting others. adviata does not mean anything in dwaita

is O.K since as it is not the final truth. The whole of communication and

the purpose of the list is in the realm of dwiata and whole of sadhana

involves dwaita and one opering with in vyavahaara. If I do not like anyone

call me names, it is my dharma not to call others the names that I myself do

not appreciate. This is simple commonsense or ethics or dharma that is

fundamental - even though the truth is beyond all these. adviata is an

understanding but operating involves dwaita and this list advacates that one

should do vyavahaara in civilized manner while relaization of the truth of

adviata is non-duality that we experience and operate with. This is the

methodology followed by our ancient teachers. Shankara taught advaita the

thuth of non-duality while repecting his teachers and teacher's teachers etc

and with love for his students who surrendered to him for knowledge. These

are practical examples of how to live with the understanding of advaita in

the duality of vyavahaara.

I strongly endore the stand taken by Shree Murthy gaaru and the moderators

in this episode. It is not the concepts that we are curtailing, which we

may and may not agree but the language in which these concpets are packaged.

I do hope all memebers participate freely but with civilian attitude with

the memebers without insulting the tradition of teachers the memebrs

respect.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

camp: Cirencester, U.K.

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>advaitin

>Re: shri Sandeep Chatterjee's postings

>Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:14:57 -0330 (NST)

>

>namaste to all.

>

>The following correspondence is attached.

>

>1. SC's letter to GM

>2. GM's response to SC

>3. SC's further response to GM

>

>This matter is now closed unless SC agrees for the moderation

>suggested in the letters. The moderation suggested is not in

>diluting the Truth which he wants to convey but presenting the

>material in a more dignified way suitable for the List.

>

>Anyone wishing to correspond with SC may do so in private e-mails.

>

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

>------

>

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

March 27, 2001

Sri Sadananda, Sri Gummuluru Murthy and others,

Namaste,

I concur with Sadananda's concurrence of the policy. :-) Sadananda makes

the interesting and always useful point that one can communicate without

hurting others. Another thing to remember, in terms of Chatterjee's

concepts, is that

(i) just because one speaks in an iconoclastic manner does not mean

that this body/mind has no sense of "doership" present.

and

(ii) just because one speaks in a polite manner and enourages others

to do so does not mean that this body/mind is mired in the illusions

of a sense of personal doership.

Sometimes (ot necessarily here) I have seen people adopt unpleasant manners

as a way to demonstrate to others that the sense of doership has

disappeared. Consider the great ironies in this!

Hari Om!

--Greg

At 10:30 AM 3/27/01, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote:

>>>>