Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Pure water is tasteless and similarly pure mind is thoughtless. The mind of a new-born child is pure and is thoughtless and does not reject or accept any ‘food' through the sense organs. The new born child is the nirguna Brahman and the ‘guna' is manifested by the saguna Brahman which include the parents, relatives and all others who come to contact with the child. The Brahman is sole master of this magical of transformation of the nirguna to saguna and this is His ‘mAyA.' Let us take the example of Ganges water. To get the purest water from Ganges, one has to go to the origin of Ganges, the Gangothri in the Himalayas. In fact, polluted water can be purified by the application of purification process . It is also true that a polluted mind can be purified using concentrated efforts ( sadhana) with discipline and determination. When water has its own identity - sweet water, salty water, red water, black water, etc., it necessarily implies that it is not pure. The purest water is colorless, odorless and tasteless. Pure mind has no thoughts and person with the purest mind will not have any identity (ego). It is the identity that brings the form and the gunas and consequently the mind of such a person is filled with ‘thoughts.' We should recognize that ‘purity' is a notion and the material object such as water helps us to intellectually understand several other notional attributes: ‘tasteless,' ‘odorless,' and ‘colorless.' But ‘mind' is not a materialistic object and a definition of the notion of ‘purity of mind' becomes more complicated and difficult. However ‘thoughtlessness' is attribute that can potentially explain the ‘purity of mind.' Finally, the intellect tries hard to get an appreciable understanding of notions that come to the mind. Notions bring more notions and more ‘thoughts' emerge. How to suppress the thoughts and to attain the ‘purity of mind' is the big question. We should recognize that thoughts become necessary to ultimately suppress all thoughts. What is that thought which has the high potential to achieve the goal of the purity of mind. During meditation, we focus our mind on just one thought to suppress all other thoughts. The Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita suggest that if we can focus our mind on Him and totally surrender to Him. This approach is guaranteed to work because when we surrender, we lose our ‘identity' and we can free all our thoughts! regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 namaste shri Ram Chandran, Thanks for a very nice post on purity of the mind. There are various ways in which the mind is viewed. One way, not too different from what you have said, is the following. I am not a full r to this concept, but I do have leanings towards it. Pure mind is, to some extent, a contradiction in terms. Mind arises only when there is a perturbation to the steady state. We may see this as a wave-form. Just like a wave arises only when there is a disturbance that is propogated, so also, mind arises only when there is a perturbation of the steady state of the citta. we can talk of the purity of the citta; purity of the mind is subordinate to it. When there is purity of the citta, nothing can perturb it and hence mind will not arise. Mind plays two roles in the spiritual development of the human. First, it gets behind the sense organs for perception of something 'external' to us. This role of the mind is under intellect's control. Mind is just a conduit for processing of the information by the intellect. Intellect discriminates and classifies the information brought to it by the mind. Purity of the citta is still the determining factor of how the intellect discriminates and the final processing of the information brought in via the mind. The other role of the mind is as an exhibitor of the citta to the 'outside'. As the citta becomes purer and purer, the level of activity of the mind becomes smaller and smaller. By that, it is not meant that the incisiveness of the intellect will be dulled, but the discriminating power of the intellect will come to its natural and right conclusion of what is real and what is unreal, thereby lessening the activity of the mind. This description is not different from what you have presented, but gives the importance to the citta rather than to the mind. Your and other List members' comments are most appreciated. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Namaste Murthygaru: Your points are well taken and I agree that there is potential for contradiction. Your framework is another way to understand and it may appeal to those who are familiar with that approach. I am also looking forward to comments from others who can bring new insights to this discussion. All notions including the notion of pure mind are subject to contradiction because these are attempts to explain the `Maya' of the Brahman using a framework and He is only qualified to understand without any contradiction. Any notion belongs to a specific framework and unfortunately someone can easily point out a contradiction using another framework. This clearly shows our limitation of our intellect and our understanding. Every religion uses a framework to understand the unknown and God provided our intellect the enormous power to contradict every statement from every framework and associated assumptions and interpretations. J. Krishnamurthy's statement, "Truth is a pathless land" just confirms that all frameworks have limitations and at some point we should be prepared to discard them. Those hang on to frameworks will be hanging for ever without any progress toward the Truth. The Upanishads and the Gita both recognize that we have to search for the Truth internally instead of externally. To search internally we need to discard all thoughts because thoughts always focus on the external objects! According to Gita, the only thought that has the potential to remove all external thoughts is keeping thought totally focusing on Him. The total surrender of Ego (External to Go) is only possible by the concentrated dosage of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana Yoga. As we have said in this list numerous times that these Yogas are inseparable and performing one necessarily implies the performance of the other two. This concentrated effort requires clear understanding and practice of `Meditation' as spelled out in Chapter 6. Finally, before closing, I want to caution that JK's statement is quite powerful and is also subject to misunderstanding and contradiction. If we say that "We like JK's statement, his ideas and framework of thoughts," we contradict JK! Truth is pathless land does not mean there is no path to the Truth. Truth does exist all the time and the path to the Truth also exists all the time but we don't know the path that leads to the Truth! Does it mean that we abandon our search even before making any attempt. Those who have read the biography of JK will realize that his vision, "Truth is a pathless land," came only after a long search! warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > This description is not different from what you have > presented, but gives the importance to the citta rather > than to the mind. > > Your and other List members' comments are most appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Namaste In fact the Vivekachudamani also mentions that a seeker after liberation should purify his/her mind (i.e. a saatvic mind). Here is the quote: Therefore purification of the mind should be undertaken with strong effort by him who seeks liberation; when the mind has been purified, liberation comes like fruit into his hand. - 181 > > Ram Chandran [sMTP:rchandran] > Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:37 AM > advaitin > Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! > > Namaste Murthygaru: > > Your points are well taken and I agree that there is potential for > contradiction. Your framework is another way to understand and it may > appeal to those who are familiar with that approach. I am also looking > forward to comments from others who can bring new insights to this > discussion. > > All notions including the notion of pure mind are subject to > contradiction because these are attempts to explain the `Maya' of the > Brahman using a framework and He is only qualified to understand > without any contradiction. Any notion belongs to a specific framework > and unfortunately someone can easily point out a contradiction using > another framework. This clearly shows our limitation of our intellect > and our understanding. Every religion uses a framework to understand > the unknown and God provided our intellect the enormous power to > contradict every statement from every framework and associated > assumptions and interpretations. > > J. Krishnamurthy's statement, "Truth is a pathless land" just confirms > that all frameworks have limitations and at some point we should be > prepared to discard them. Those hang on to frameworks will be hanging > for ever without any progress toward the Truth. The Upanishads and > the Gita both recognize that we have to search for the Truth > internally instead of externally. To search internally we need to > discard all thoughts because thoughts always focus on the external > objects! According to Gita, the only thought that has the potential to > remove all external thoughts is keeping thought totally focusing on > Him. The total surrender of Ego (External to Go) is only possible by > the concentrated dosage of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana Yoga. As we have > said in this list numerous times that these Yogas are inseparable and > performing one necessarily implies the performance of the other two. > This concentrated effort requires clear understanding and practice of > `Meditation' as spelled out in Chapter 6. > > Finally, before closing, I want to caution that JK's statement is > quite powerful and is also subject to misunderstanding and > contradiction. If we say that "We like JK's statement, his ideas and > framework of thoughts," we contradict JK! Truth is pathless land does > not mean there is no path to the Truth. Truth does exist all the time > and the path to the Truth also exists all the time but we don't know > the path that leads to the Truth! Does it mean that we abandon our > search even before making any attempt. Those who have read the > biography of JK will realize that his vision, "Truth is a pathless > land," came only after a long search! > > warmest regards, > > Ram Chandran > > > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > > > This description is not different from what you have > > presented, but gives the importance to the citta rather > > than to the mind. > > > > Your and other List members' comments are most appreciated. > > > > > Sponsor > Click Here! > <http://rd./M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700075991: > N/A=636985/?http://rd./O=1/I=season-mom01/smile/*http://shopping. > /promotions/momsday01/index.html> > < > <http://us.adserver./l?M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S= > 1700075991:N/A=636985/rand=394614466> > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > <http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/> > Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server > For details, visit: </local/news.html> > Post message: advaitin > Subscribe: advaitin- > Un: advaitin > URL to Advaitin: <advaitin> > File folder: <advaitin> > Link Folder: <advaitin/links> > Messages Folder: <advaitin/messages> > > > > Terms of Service > <>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Namaste, Is the pure mind different from the Self ? Anand > Therefore purification of the mind should be > undertaken with strong effort > by him who seeks liberation; when the mind has been > purified, liberation > comes like fruit into his hand. - 181 > > Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Namaste, This is an excellent question and the only way to avoid all contradiction is to agree that "pure mind" implies the realization of the Self. "peaceful mind," "fulfilled mind,happy mind," should also imply the same. The mind without the purity is restless with thoughts, unhappy and filled with desires. Most of the time, we put our efforts on intellectuall conceptualization without paying attention to mind purification. No external efforts can purify our mind and we have to turn internally. We have to turn internally just like the Tortoise draws in his limbs (into the shell). The intelligence of those who draw away the senses from the objects of sense on everyside is firmly set. This is what Lord Krishna says in Gita Chapter 2 (Verse 58) as the person with the "stable mind." Person with the stable mind is the perfect Yogi (Stithaprajna) or the one who is Self-realized. The purpose of all these adjectives is help us to focus and get a clear understanding of "Self-realization." The best answer that we can think to avoid all contradictions is to obey the Lord and "JUST DO IT." regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Anand Natarajan <harihara.geo> wrote: > > Namaste, > Is the pure mind different from the Self ? > > Anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 The posts so far imply something that I, too, once believed to be the case, namely that thinking is 'bad' per se and that our aim should be to try to rid the mind of thoughts. Whilst it is clearly true that the mind (manas) does frequently indulge in discursive thinking that can never 'lead' anywhere, it does not follow that stopping this will lead anywhere either. Yes, meditation such as japa can lead to a state of stillness wherein there are no thoughts. This is very pleasant, allowing a quality of awareness that is rarely achieved in ordinary living. Nevertheless, it is only a state of mind, merely qualitatively different and perhaps more desirable (from the seeker's point of view) than other states. The fact remains that it is part of the nature of mind to think. Thoughts, too, are nothing other than Brahman and seeing them can itself be a pointer to that truth. Why should we want this creation and the manifestations in it to be other than as they are? OM puurNamadaH puurNamidaM. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 I have been following this thread on Purity of Mind and especially the comment about a seeker should exert strong effort for Purification of mind. It is obvious that any spiritual sadhana results in purification of mind. When one performs Japa or Meditation or even Vedantic sravana they are considered tapas and tapas always results in chitta suddhi (purification of mind). What was not obvious to me is how do you purify your mind when you are doing your normal day to day activities - shopping, at work , dropping your kids off to school etc. Here is a quote that may answer that question: The Correct Way to Perform Actions When an act is performed in a spirit of dedication to God and one is not attached to the fruit of the act, the very act that normally binds serves to liberate, by producing mental purity, which is needed for liberation-conferring knowledge to dawn. Therefore, let us not long for the results of our actions. The Lord has given us the ability to be detached. "Our duty is to perform action but not to be attached to the fruit thereof" - if we engage in activity with this attitude, what we do will constitute Dharma (righteousness). quoted from "Pearls of Wisdom" http://www.jagadgurus.org My conclusions are as follows: If we can start any task as a dedication to God (Karma Yoga) it should result in purification. If that is not possible 'mentally commit the action to God' during the course of the task. If not make a habit of committing every hour or so. opinions or other interpretations welcome. Sundar Rajan advaitin, K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > Namaste > > In fact the Vivekachudamani also mentions that a seeker after liberation > should purify his/her mind (i.e. a saatvic mind). Here is the quote: > > Therefore purification of the mind should be undertaken with strong effort > by him who seeks liberation; when the mind has been purified, liberation > comes like fruit into his hand. - 181 > > > > > > Ram Chandran [sMTP:rchandran@c...] > > Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:37 AM > > advaitin > > Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! > > > > Namaste Murthygaru: > > > > Your points are well taken and I agree that there is potential for > > contradiction. Your framework is another way to understand and it may > > appeal to those who are familiar with that approach. I am also looking > > forward to comments from others who can bring new insights to this > > discussion. > > > > All notions including the notion of pure mind are subject to > > contradiction because these are attempts to explain the `Maya' of the > > Brahman using a framework and He is only qualified to understand > > without any contradiction. Any notion belongs to a specific framework > > and unfortunately someone can easily point out a contradiction using > > another framework. This clearly shows our limitation of our intellect > > and our understanding. Every religion uses a framework to understand > > the unknown and God provided our intellect the enormous power to > > contradict every statement from every framework and associated > > assumptions and interpretations. > > > > J. Krishnamurthy's statement, "Truth is a pathless land" just confirms > > that all frameworks have limitations and at some point we should be > > prepared to discard them. Those hang on to frameworks will be hanging > > for ever without any progress toward the Truth. The Upanishads and > > the Gita both recognize that we have to search for the Truth > > internally instead of externally. To search internally we need to > > discard all thoughts because thoughts always focus on the external > > objects! According to Gita, the only thought that has the potential to > > remove all external thoughts is keeping thought totally focusing on > > Him. The total surrender of Ego (External to Go) is only possible by > > the concentrated dosage of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana Yoga. As we have > > said in this list numerous times that these Yogas are inseparable and > > performing one necessarily implies the performance of the other two. > > This concentrated effort requires clear understanding and practice of > > `Meditation' as spelled out in Chapter 6. > > > > Finally, before closing, I want to caution that JK's statement is > > quite powerful and is also subject to misunderstanding and > > contradiction. If we say that "We like JK's statement, his ideas and > > framework of thoughts," we contradict JK! Truth is pathless land does > > not mean there is no path to the Truth. Truth does exist all the time > > and the path to the Truth also exists all the time but we don't know > > the path that leads to the Truth! Does it mean that we abandon our > > search even before making any attempt. Those who have read the > > biography of JK will realize that his vision, "Truth is a pathless > > land," came only after a long search! > > > > warmest regards, > > > > Ram Chandran > > > > > > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > > > > > This description is not different from what you have > > > presented, but gives the importance to the citta rather > > > than to the mind. > > > > > > Your and other List members' comments are most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > Click Here! > > <http://rd./M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700075 991: > > N/A=636985/?http://rd./O=1/I=season- mom01/smile/*http://shopping. > > /promotions/momsday01/index.html> > > < > > <http://us.adserver./l? M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S= > > 1700075991:N/A=636985/rand=394614466> > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > > Atman and Brahman. > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > > <http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/> > > Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server > > For details, visit: </local/news.html> > > Post message: advaitin > > Subscribe: advaitin- > > Un: advaitin- > > URL to Advaitin: <advaitin> > > File folder: <advaitin> > > Link Folder: <advaitin/links> > > Messages Folder: <advaitin/messages> > > > > > > > > Terms of Service > > <>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Dear Dennis: Good to see your thoughtful posting regarding thoughts! Gita once again can resolve all the questions that you have raised and Gitacharya's framework of 'stable mind' can appropriately resolve the apparant contradictions. The purified mind (or stable mind) will entertain only thoughts that are consistent to "True Human Nature." When thoughts become inconsistent to "True Human Nature," our mind becomes unstable (impure) and peace gets disturbed. Once again if we go back to Bhagavad Gita, Chapter I, we can recollect that Arjuna's mind got disturbed due to various thoughts regarding the outcome of the war. It seems that he had a moment of memory loss and he forgot his True Nature! Lord Krishna recognized that Arjuna's mind was disturbed and with great compassion, the Lord undertook the cleaning process which ultimately purified Arjuna's mind. The entire purpose of Gita can be considered as a manual to tune up our mind so that we can reestablish our "True Human Nature." As a human being, we have certain natural urges; for example when we feel hunger, we search for food and this is our inherent nature and this is called 'prakrti.' Sleeping is also part of human nature. But over eating and over sleeping are not part of prakrti but they are known as vikrti. As long as we act according to our True Nature, there will be no problems and all our thoughts will be stable and will not disturb our internal peace. But when our actions become inconsistent with our True Nature, prakrti disappears and vikrti emerges. Our desires (impulses) are the root cause of our conversion from prakrti to vikrti. Prakrti is the Dharma and vikrti is Adharma and the entire Gita is to eradicate Adharma and reestablish the Dharma. In conclusion, though I agree that it is part of the nature of mind is to think but all thoughts are necessarily to be consistent to our True Human Nature. The entire collection of verses on Stithaprajna (Chapter II Verses 54 to 72) describes the characteristics of the Perfect Yogi. Specifically verses 64 and 65 stresses the importance of the disciplined mind and the purity of the spirit. regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote: > The fact remains that it is part of the nature of mind to think. Thoughts, > too, are nothing other than Brahman and seeing them can itself be a pointer > to that truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Namaste, It seems somewhat awkward to me to say that the 'mind thinks'! My simplistic understanding of the four-fold division of 'antaH- karaNa' - aha~Nkaara [ego], chitta [memory/sub-conscious], manas [mind/attention], and buddhi [intellect] - leads me to say that it is the intellect that thinks, and not the mind. Mind is the great gateway which allows all sensations to enter the consciousness; it prefers what pleases the senses. It does not discriminate. It is the intellect which has to decide what is preyas [pleasurable] and what is shreyas [summum bonum]. Gita emphasises 'buddhi-yoga' on all occasions - 'buddhi yogam upaashritya machchitaH satataM bhava .'[18:57] sthita-praj~na refers to the steady intellect which alone can steady the mind, which is 'uncontrollable like the wind'. The memory/unconscious can get purified [vaasanaa-kshaya or chitta- shuddhi]] only if the summum bonum is pursued. The intuition blossoms only in such a soil of steady, pure, concentrated, 'antaH-karaNa'; 'samaadhau achalaa buddhiH' [2:53]. Thoughts are also brahman, but only certain ones can reflect the glory of the Divine. Regards, s. advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: > Dear Dennis: > > Good to see your thoughtful posting regarding thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda advaitin Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:03:33 >Ram Chandran >>Pure water is tasteless and similarly pure mind is thoughtless. The mind of a >new-born child is pure and is thoughtless and does not reject or accept any >‘food' through the sense organs. The new born child is the nirguna Brahman >and the ‘guna' is manifested by the saguna Brahman which include the >parents, relatives and all others who come to contact with the child. The >Brahman is sole master of this magical of transformation of the nirguna to >saguna and this is His ‘mAyA.' Little clarification, Mind is the throughts - Thoughtless is mind is no mind at all. Thoughtless mind is the mind which has no capacity to think. Pure mind is does not mean it is thoughtless mind. To think is the nature of the mind. People misunderstand that one should stop thinking to reach a state of liberation. The process itself becomes a strainful and thought suppression - Liberation is inspite of the mind not devoid of the mind. Hence the emphasis on the inquiry with the mind, of the mind. Manasantu kim margane kR^ite - say Ramana inquire what is the mind. In the proprocess of inquiry one transends the mind in the sense one sees one self in through the mind that he is beyond the mind. "I am not the mind' is the realization - They are in me - they meaning mind, body and intellect etc plus all the world are in me, but I am not in them - starting from I am not the mind, body and intellect. I am inclusive of them but they are not inclusive of me - It is like your open and closed sets you onces tried to describe the state - while it is beyond the states. >the purest mind will not have any identity (ego). It is the identity that >brings the form and the gunas and consequently the mind of such a person is >filled with ‘thoughts.' Thougts in the pure mind is the thoughts of the Lord himself - thoughts and the Lord still exist as long as the mind or the upaadhiis exist. What is realized is I am not the mind with the thoughts. I am beyond the mind that has the thoughts. Hence reinforce again pure mind is not a thoughtless mind. Hari OM! Sadananda _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 I agree, offering all activities to God. Also, to inquire what is God's will is important. I have a nice little pamphlet called, "Partnership" by Vincent P. Collins. He talks about turning our lives over to God. Part of this is turning the will over to God. How to do that? Ask God, "what do you want me to do now" and be honest with self. When I do this and begin a wrong activity, I really feel in my heart, "I should not do this". advaitin, sundar_rajan@h... wrote: > I have been following this thread on Purity of Mind and especially > the comment about a seeker should exert strong effort for > Purification of mind. > > It is obvious that any spiritual sadhana results in purification of > mind. When one performs Japa or Meditation or even Vedantic sravana > they are considered tapas and tapas always results in chitta suddhi > (purification of mind). What was not obvious to me is how do you > purify your mind when you are doing your normal day to day > activities - shopping, at work , dropping your kids off to school etc. > > Here is a quote that may answer that question: > > The Correct Way to Perform Actions > > When an act is performed in a spirit of dedication to God and one is > not attached to the fruit of the act, the very act that normally > binds serves to liberate, by producing mental purity, which is needed > for liberation-conferring knowledge to dawn. Therefore, let us not > long for the results of our actions. The Lord has given us the > ability to be detached. "Our duty is to perform action but not to be > attached to the fruit thereof" - if we engage in activity with this > attitude, what we do will constitute Dharma (righteousness). > > quoted from "Pearls of Wisdom" > http://www.jagadgurus.org > > My conclusions are as follows: > If we can start any task as a dedication to God (Karma Yoga) it > should result in purification. If that is not possible 'mentally > commit the action to God' during the course of the task. If not make > a habit of committing every hour or so. > > opinions or other interpretations welcome. > > Sundar Rajan > > > > > advaitin, K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > > Namaste > > > > In fact the Vivekachudamani also mentions that a seeker after > liberation > > should purify his/her mind (i.e. a saatvic mind). Here is the > quote: > > > > Therefore purification of the mind should be undertaken with strong > effort > > by him who seeks liberation; when the mind has been purified, > liberation > > comes like fruit into his hand. - 181 > > > > > > > > > > Ram Chandran [sMTP:rchandran@c...] > > > Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:37 AM > > > advaitin > > > Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! > > > > > > Namaste Murthygaru: > > > > > > Your points are well taken and I agree that there is potential > for > > > contradiction. Your framework is another way to understand and it > may > > > appeal to those who are familiar with that approach. I am also > looking > > > forward to comments from others who can bring new insights to > this > > > discussion. > > > > > > All notions including the notion of pure mind are subject to > > > contradiction because these are attempts to explain the `Maya' of > the > > > Brahman using a framework and He is only qualified to understand > > > without any contradiction. Any notion belongs to a specific > framework > > > and unfortunately someone can easily point out a contradiction > using > > > another framework. This clearly shows our limitation of our > intellect > > > and our understanding. Every religion uses a framework to > understand > > > the unknown and God provided our intellect the enormous power to > > > contradict every statement from every framework and associated > > > assumptions and interpretations. > > > > > > J. Krishnamurthy's statement, "Truth is a pathless land" just > confirms > > > that all frameworks have limitations and at some point we should > be > > > prepared to discard them. Those hang on to frameworks will be > hanging > > > for ever without any progress toward the Truth. The Upanishads > and > > > the Gita both recognize that we have to search for the Truth > > > internally instead of externally. To search internally we need to > > > discard all thoughts because thoughts always focus on the > external > > > objects! According to Gita, the only thought that has the > potential to > > > remove all external thoughts is keeping thought totally focusing > on > > > Him. The total surrender of Ego (External to Go) is only > possible by > > > the concentrated dosage of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana Yoga. As we > have > > > said in this list numerous times that these Yogas are inseparable > and > > > performing one necessarily implies the performance of the other > two. > > > This concentrated effort requires clear understanding and > practice of > > > `Meditation' as spelled out in Chapter 6. > > > > > > Finally, before closing, I want to caution that JK's statement is > > > quite powerful and is also subject to misunderstanding and > > > contradiction. If we say that "We like JK's statement, his > ideas and > > > framework of thoughts," we contradict JK! Truth is pathless land > does > > > not mean there is no path to the Truth. Truth does exist all the > time > > > and the path to the Truth also exists all the time but we don't > know > > > the path that leads to the Truth! Does it mean that we abandon > our > > > search even before making any attempt. Those who have read the > > > biography of JK will realize that his vision, "Truth is a > pathless > > > land," came only after a long search! > > > > > > warmest regards, > > > > > > Ram Chandran > > > > > > > > > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > This description is not different from what you have > > > > presented, but gives the importance to the citta rather > > > > than to the mind. > > > > > > > > Your and other List members' comments are most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > Click Here! > > > > <http://rd./M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700075 > 991: > > > N/A=636985/?http://rd./O=1/I=season- > mom01/smile/*http://shopping. > > > /promotions/momsday01/index.html> > > > < > > > <http://us.adserver./l? > M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S= > > > 1700075991:N/A=636985/rand=394614466> > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of > nonseparablity of > > > Atman and Brahman. > > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > > > <http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/> > > > Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server > > > For details, visit: </local/news.html> > > > Post message: advaitin > > > Subscribe: advaitin- > > > Un: advaitin- > > > URL to Advaitin: <advaitin> > > > File folder: <advaitin> > > > Link Folder: <advaitin/links> > > > Messages Folder: <advaitin/messages> > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service > > > <>. 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Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 What disturbs the peace.... Driving through Arkansas, there is so much Gospel on the AM Radio, it is really something.... I don't know if it is the less money in an area, the more God or what? But, I heard this lady who seems to be a very charismatic, spirit filled preacher say you tune into the heart and when the peace leaves, you go back a step and look at what you are doing... My Guru, Swami Chidvilasananda said.... Abraham Lincoln when asked what his religion was said. When I do what is right, I feel good, and when I don't do what is right, I feel bad... I believe that for many of us such as myself who are not such good listeners to the heart and need peace, we tend to be so far into the ego that it is hard to hear God's voice... Another thing I remember my Guru saying is that japa empowers the inner voice. So, I believe in order to do japa, a certain level of surrender and peace is necessary. It helps me to "tune in" to my honest self. or... "tune out" the noise... Paul advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: > Dear Dennis: > > Good to see your thoughtful posting regarding thoughts! > > Gita once again can resolve all the questions that you have raised and > Gitacharya's framework of 'stable mind' can appropriately resolve the > apparant contradictions. The purified mind (or stable mind) will > entertain only thoughts that are consistent to "True Human Nature." > When thoughts become inconsistent to "True Human Nature," our mind > becomes unstable (impure) and peace gets disturbed. Once again if we > go back to Bhagavad Gita, Chapter I, we can recollect that Arjuna's > mind got disturbed due to various thoughts regarding the outcome of > the war. It seems that he had a moment of memory loss and he forgot > his True Nature! Lord Krishna recognized that Arjuna's mind was > disturbed and with great compassion, the Lord undertook the cleaning > process which ultimately purified Arjuna's mind. The entire purpose > of Gita can be considered as a manual to tune up our mind so that we > can reestablish our "True Human Nature." > > As a human being, we have certain natural urges; for example when we > feel hunger, we search for food and this is our inherent nature and > this is called 'prakrti.' Sleeping is also part of human nature. But > over eating and over sleeping are not part of prakrti but they are > known as vikrti. As long as we act according to our True Nature, there > will be no problems and all our thoughts will be stable and will not > disturb our internal peace. But when our actions become inconsistent > with our True Nature, prakrti disappears and vikrti emerges. Our > desires (impulses) are the root cause of our conversion from prakrti > to vikrti. Prakrti is the Dharma and vikrti is Adharma and the entire > Gita is to eradicate Adharma and reestablish the Dharma. > > In conclusion, though I agree that it is part of the nature of mind is > to think but all thoughts are necessarily to be consistent to our True > Human Nature. The entire collection of verses on Stithaprajna (Chapter > II Verses 54 to 72) describes the characteristics of the Perfect Yogi. > Specifically verses 64 and 65 stresses the importance of the > disciplined mind and the purity of the spirit. > > regards, > > Ram Chandran > > > advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote: > > The fact remains that it is part of the nature of mind to think. > Thoughts, > > too, are nothing other than Brahman and seeing them can itself be a > pointer > > to that truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 Namaste Sunderji: Your point is well taken thanks for the additional explanation. One of the definition on "mind" that I rememember is : "Mind is a collection or accumulation of thoughts." The entire purpose of my original posting was to emphasize the importance of 'sadhana (efforts)' for self-purification. When thoughts are purified, mind the collection of thoughts are purified when the entire purification efforts become successful. An infinite number of frameworks are feasible with appropriate definitions and assumptions. Your additional supportive explanations will hopefully clarify and fill up the gaps in our understanding. Fundamentally, with the right attitude, we can derive an ocean of knowledge from the scriptures for our spiritual progress. The thought, that "Everything including all thoughts is Brahman" is noble but only with purity we can get that vision. Sri Ramana Maharishi has undertaken the sadhana of "self-purification" with great determination and dedication. Those who read his biography can understand how he proceeded and achieved the goal of self-realization. Another saint of recent times that we can remember is Kanchi Paramacharya Chandrasekandra Saraswati. Their thoughts are always the Brahman because they have the vision of Brahman in all their thoughts! regards Ram Chandran Important Note: A request to (new) members: When you reply any message, please do not include the entire message of the referred article. Just cut and paste the relevant portions. Thanks for your cooperation and understanding. advaitin, sunderh wrote: > > Thoughts are also brahman, but only certain > ones can reflect the glory of the Divine. > > Regards, > > s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 Namaste, This subject is of such perennial interest that it is hard to let go of an opportunity to reflect on the poetic descriptions from the Katha Upanishad [1:3:3-13; 2:3:7-11] and the Gita [3:40-43]: [Translations are by Sanderson Beck] aatmaana.N rathitaM viddhi shariira.N rathameva tu . buddhiM tu saarathiM viddhi manaH pragrahameva cha .. 3.. indriyaaNi hayaanaahurvishhayaa.N steshhu gocharaan.h . aatmendriyamanoyuktaM bhoktetyaahurmaniishhiNaH .. 4.. yastvaviGYaanavaanbhavatyayuktena manasaa sadaa . tasyendriyaaNyavashyaani dushhTaashvaa iva saaratheH .. 5.. yastu viGYaanavaanbhavati yuktena manasaa sadaa . tasyendriyaaNi vashyaani sadashvaa iva saaratheH .. 6.. yastvaviGYaanavaanbhavatyamanaskaH sadaa.ashuchiH . na sa tatpadamaapnoti sa.nsaaraM chaadhigachchhati .. 7.. yastu viGYaanavaanbhavati samanaskaH sadaa shuchiH . sa tu tatpadamaapnoti yasmaad.hbhuuyo na jaayate .. 8.. viGYaanasaarathiryastu manaH pragrahavaannaraH . so.adhvanaH paaramaapnoti tadvishhNoH paramaM padam.h .. 9.. indriyebhyaH paraa hyarthaa arthebhyashcha paraM manaH . manasastu paraa buddhirbuddheraatmaa mahaanparaH .. 10.. mahataH paramavyaktamavyaktaatpurushhaH paraH . purushhaanna paraM ki.nchitsaa kaashhThaa saa paraa gatiH .. 11.. eshha sarveshhu bhuuteshhu guuDho.a.atmaa na prakaashate . dR^ishyate tvagryayaa buddhyaa suukshmayaa suukshmadarshibhiH .. 12.. yachchhedvaaN^manasii praaGYastadyachchhejGYaana aatmani . GYaanamaatmani mahati niyachchhettadyachchhechchhaanta aatmani .. 13.. "Know the soul as lord of a chariot, the body as the chariot. Know the intuition as the chariot driver, and the mind as the reins. The senses, they say, are the horses; the objects of sense the paths. This associated with the body, the senses and the mind, the wise call 'the enjoyer.' "Those who do not have understanding, whose minds are always undisciplined, their senses are out of control, like the wild horses of a chariot driver. "Those, however, who have understanding, whose minds are always disciplined, their senses are under control, like the good horses of a chariot driver. "Those, however, who have no understanding, who are unmindful and always impure, do not reach the goal but go on to reincarnation. "Those, however, who have understanding, who are mindful and always pure, reach the goal from which they are not born again. Those who have the understanding of a chariot driver, controlling the reins of the mind, they reach the end of the journey, the supreme home of Vishnu. "Beyond the senses are the objects of sense. Beyond the objects of sense is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intuition. Beyond the intuition is the great soul. Beyond the great is the unmanifest. Beyond the unmanifest is Spirit. Beyond the Spirit there is nothing at all. That is the end; that is the final goal. "Though hidden in all beings the soul is invisible. It is seen by the subtle seers through their sharp and subtle intelligence. An intelligent person should restrain speech in mind, and mind should be restrained in the knowing soul. The knowing soul should be restrained in the intuitive soul. That should be restrained in the peaceful soul. ___________________ indriyebhyaH paraM mano manasaH sattvamuttamam.h . sattvaadadhi mahaanaatmaa mahato.avyaktamuttamam.h .. 7.. avyaktaattu paraH purushho vyaapako.aliN^ga eva cha . yaM GYaatvaa muchyate janturamR^itatvaM cha gachchhati .. 8.. na sa.ndR^ishe tishhThati ruupamasya na chakshushhaa pashyati kashchanainam.h . hR^idaa maniishhaa manasaa.abhiklR^ipto ya etadviduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 9.. yadaa paJNchaavatishhThante GYaanaani manasaa saha . buddhishcha na vicheshhTate taamaahuH paramaaM gatim.h .. 10.. taaM yogamiti manyante sthiraamindriyadhaaraNaam.h . apramattastadaa bhavati yogo hi prabhavaapyayau .. 11.. "Recognizing the separate nature of the senses and their rising and setting apart, the wise does not grieve. Beyond the senses is the mind; above the mind is true being; over true being is the great soul; above the great is the unmanifest. Higher than the unmanifest is Spirit, all-pervading and without any mark whatever. Knowing this a mortal is liberated and reaches immortality. "This form is not to be observed. No one ever sees it with the eye. It is apprehended by the heart, by the thought, by the mind. They who know that become immortal. "When the five sense perceptions together with the mind cease, and the intuition does not stir, that, they say, is the highest state. This they consider to be uniting, the steady control of the senses. Then one becomes undistracted, for uniting is the arising and the passing away. "Not by speech, not by mind, not by sight, can this be apprehended. How can this be comprehended except by the one who says, 'It is.' It can be comprehended only as existent and by the real nature in both ways. When it is comprehended as existent, its real nature becomes clear. "When every desire found in the human heart is liberated, then a mortal becomes immortal and here one attains to God. When all the knots of the heart here on earth are cut, then a mortal becomes immortal. So far is the teaching. ===================================================================== indriyaaNi mano buddhirasyaadhishhThaanamuchyate . etairvimohayatyeshha GYaanamaavR^itya dehinam.h .. 3\.40.. tasmaattvamindriyaaNyaadau niyamya bharatarshhabha . paapmaanaM prajahi hyenaM GYaanaviGYaananaashanam.h .. 3\.41.. indriyaaNi paraaNyaahurindriyebhyaH paraM manaH . manasastu paraa buddhiryo buddheH paratastu saH .. 3\.42.. evaM buddheH paraM buddhvaa sa.nstabhyaatmaanamaatmanaa . jahi shatruM mahaabaaho kaamaruupaM duraasadam.h .. 3\.43.. "'The senses, they say, are high. Higher than the senses is the mind, but higher than the mind is the intuition, but higher than the intuition is this. Thus intuiting what is higher than the intuition, sustaining the soul with the soul, kill the adversary, great-armed one, the desire-form difficult to approach.' Regards, s. advaitin, Ram Chandran <ramvchandran> wrote: > Fundamentally, with the right attitude, we can derive > an ocean of knowledge from the scriptures for our > spiritual progress. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 Upadesha Saaram of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi says "Maanasam tu kim Margane Krithe Naiva Maanasam Marga Aarjavaath". "What is the mind, if you enquire There is no mind, you shall find." To my understanding this means that if a concentrated and devoted search is made for the mind, then we reach a thought free state, which means that the mind as a separate entity does not exist. This is not a "thoughtless" state. A thoughtless state is a state of sleep, a blank. This is a Vritti as stated in the Patanjali Yoga Sutra. Therefore being thoughtless does not mean that we have purity of mind, rather we need to be thought free. This is not a play with words. Being thought free indicates that we no longer choose, we no longer consider ourselves to be an agent. Therefore another Shloka of Upadesha Saaram says "Vrithayasthvaham Vrithimashritha. Vrithayomano Vidhyahammanaha" "The I thought is a Vrithi, It is the domain of other Vrittis, The mind is nothing but these Vrittis, therefore the I thought and the mind are the same". Therefore mind purification and eradication of Vrittis are one and the same. Yoga is "Chittha Vritti Nirodaha" Yoga is "Cessation of the Vrittis". Therefore Purification of the mind leads to Yoga. Anand Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 Namaste Ramji, >> Sri Ramana Maharishi has undertaken the sadhana of "self- purification" with great determination and dedication. Those who read his biography can understand how he proceeded and achieved the goal of self-realization. >> I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement above. There are no indications from the extensive literature on Sri Ramana Maharishi that He performed any sadhana at all in this birth towards Realization. After the 'sudden death' experience in his teens, Realization 'dawned' on Him and He remained in that ever since. The following information from 'The Mountain Path' (Journal from Ramana Ashram) of this years Jayanthi issue may help clarify the issue. ================== Mountain Path ================================ There was a young man studying Sanskrit and sacred lore at Chidambaram. After finishing his course of studies there he went to Sringeri to hear Vedanta explained by the famous HH Narasimha Bharati Swami[1879-1912, 33rd Pontiff of Sringeri]. The Swami condescended to teach him though he had just then intended to stop teaching and retire into solitude for meditation. Once, at the end of the day's lesson, the Swami remarked, "We study scriptures and commentaries on them. They no doubt clarify one's understanding and help one spiritually; but they are only secondary.The main thing is one's spiritual ripeness. One who is already spiritually evolved need not go through the scriptures and commentaries on them. Such a one gets illuminated in a flash without these aids.The Bala Yogi of Tiruvannamalai is an instance here." The student had heard of the Brahmana Swami (Sri Bhagvan as he was then known) while at Chidambaram, but had thought it was all a hoax. And so he was stunned to hear such profound appreciation of Bhagvan from the lips of his venerable master and resolved to go and have darshan of Bhagvan before long. ================== Mountain Path ================================ Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2001 Report Share Posted April 25, 2001 Namaste Sundarji: I fully respect your right to disagree with one or many of my statements. Let me clarify my statement, "Sri Ramana Maharishi has undertaken the sadhana of "self-purification." I have never stated (or implied) that 'sadhana' stands for reading all Hindu scriptures thoroughly. If you belive that I have implied that, then your disagreement is fully justified. My reference is specifically with respect to Sri Ramana's total surrender to Arunachaleswarar of Tiruvannamali. When he was 17 years old, Sri Ramana left Madurai and went to the sanctum sanctorum of the Arunachala temple and totally surrendered to the Lord. For few months he remained immersed totally in the steady bliss of the Heart at Virupaksha Cave in Arunachala Hill. My reference to his "sadhana" only refers to this incident. Brief life sketch of Sri Ramana are stated in the book, "Sayings of Sri Raman Maharishi", published by Ramana Maharishi Center. Finally in this list every member should feel free to express disgreements. Such disagreement can clarify (and also purify) our thoughts. This is a great opportunity for us to express our disagreements with courtesy and kindness with the focus on the subject matter instead of the personality. This experience will greatly help us to be better citizens and more importantly, a better human being. regard, Ram Chandran advaitin, sundar_rajan@h... wrote: > Namaste Ramji, > > >> > Sri Ramana Maharishi has undertaken the sadhana of "self- > purification" with great determination and dedication. Those who read > his biography can understand how he proceeded and achieved the goal > of self-realization. > >> > I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement above. > There are no indications from the extensive literature on Sri Ramana > Maharishi that He performed any sadhana at all in this birth towards > Realization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 OM GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH OM NAMAH SIVAYA OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA Blessed self, Mind—Its Mysteries and Control By Sri Swami SIVANANDA http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm Mind And Its Activity By Sri Swami Chidanandaji http://www.dlshq.org/download/rajayogalectures.htm#_VPID_4 THE MIND AND ITS FUNCTIONS By Sri Swami Krishnanandaji http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/univ/univ_03.html ON MIND-CONTROL By Sri Swami Krishnananda http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/sadh/sadh_02.html Pranam OM > > "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda > advaitin > Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:03:33 > > >Ram Chandran > >>Pure water is tasteless and similarly pure mind is thoughtless. > The mind of a > >new-born child is pure and is thoughtless and does not reject or accept any > >‘food' through the sense organs. The new born child is the nirguna Brahman > >and the ‘guna' is manifested by the saguna Brahman which include the > >parents, relatives and all others who come to contact with the child. The > >Brahman is sole master of this magical of transformation of the nirguna to > >saguna and this is His ‘mAyA.' > > Little clarification, > Mind is the throughts - Thoughtless is mind is no mind at all. Thoughtless > mind is the mind which has no capacity to think. Pure mind is does not mean > it is thoughtless mind. To think is the nature of the mind. People > misunderstand that one should stop thinking to reach a state of liberation. > The process itself becomes a strainful and thought suppression - Liberation > is inspite of the mind not devoid of the mind. Hence the emphasis on the > inquiry with the mind, of the mind. Manasantu kim margane kR^ite - say > Ramana inquire what is the mind. In the proprocess of inquiry one transends > the mind in the sense one sees one self in through the mind that he is > beyond the mind. "I am not the mind' is the realization - They are in me - > they meaning mind, body and intellect etc plus all the world are in me, but > I am not in them - starting from I am not the mind, body and intellect. I > am inclusive of them but they are not inclusive of me - It is like your open > and closed sets you onces tried to describe the state - while it is beyond > the states. > > >the purest mind will not have any identity (ego). It is the identity that > >brings the form and the gunas and consequently the mind of such a person is > >filled with ‘thoughts.' > > Thougts in the pure mind is the thoughts of the Lord himself - thoughts and > the Lord still exist as long as the mind or the upaadhiis exist. What is > realized is I am not the mind with the thoughts. I am beyond the mind that > has the thoughts. Hence reinforce again pure mind is not a thoughtless > mind. > > > Hari OM! > Sadananda > __________ _____ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server > For details, visit: /local/news.html > Post message: advaitin > Subscribe: advaitin- > Un: advaitin > URL to Advaitin: advaitin > File folder: advaitin > Link Folder: advaitin/links > Messages Folder: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > ------------ Get FREE E-Mail http://www.valuemail.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 Ram - you said "As a human being, we have certain natural urges; for example when we feel hunger, we search for food and this is our inherent nature and this is called 'prakrti.' Sleeping is also part of human nature. But over eating and over sleeping are not part of prakrti but they are known as vikrti." I haven't heard of vikR^iti before but surely the first part of the last quoted sentence cannot be true? The gita says that *everything* is made up of the three gunas doesn't it? And these together constitute prakR^iti? Things like over sleeping would indicate a predominance of tamas. I would certainly agree that the aim of traditional saadhanaa is to maximise sattva and I am happy to equate this with purifying the mind in the sense of making it more sattvic. Obviously as one progresses from the most tamasic to the most sattvic, the quality of the thoughts will 'improve' in that sense but none of that denies the fact that ALL thoughts are brahman. The dictionary indicates that vikR^iti means things like agitation and perturbation - I don't see what this has to do with prakR^iti. Describing a state of mind, why does it not simply indicate a predominance of rajas? Sunder - you said "My simplistic understanding of the four-fold division of 'antaH-karaNa' - aha~Nkaara [ego], chitta [memory/sub-conscious], manas [mind/attention], and buddhi [intellect] - leads me to say that it is the intellect that thinks, and not the mind." The school I attended was very keen on this particular topic and my belief is that it is manas that indulges in discursive thought as well as its primary function of transmitting data from the senses. (If working correctly, it *only* does this, without adding anything else, but usually has to add its two penny worth.) Buddhi is responsible for discriminating, not thinking. More significantly, you also said "Thoughts are also brahman, but only certain ones can reflect the glory of the Divine." I would have to differ here. Since *all* thoughts are brahman, how can only those that we, aha~Nkaara, choose to think important, reflect the glory? Surely, all manifestations, from the most sublime to the most degrading (to the sincere seeker) are equally nothing other than Brahman. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 OM GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH OM NAMAH SIVAYA OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA Blessed self, ON MIND-CONTROL http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/sadh/sadh_02.html The "mind" is a name given to the policy of affirming one's finitude. The assertion of individuality is known as "mind." It is a pressure exerted upon the limitedness of our personality, and there is no such thing as mind independently existing, as we may imagine it to be. Childlike considerations may form the opinion that the mind is something moving inside the body, like a ball of mercury changing its position frequently, within the body only. No such thing is the mind. It cannot be located as "something." It is, to explain it precisely, the body asserting itself: "I am." This body feels "it is." That vehement feeling of physical existence is termed the "mind" for purpose of easy comprehension. Fickleness is the nature of the mind. It will never occupy a particular position because the physical affirmation spoken of is a tantalizing phenomenon, not sure of itself. The body does not finally know what it wants; that is to say, the mind, so-called, does not know what it wants. This is so because there is a contradiction between the affirmation of individuality through the physical body, and the infinite longings that seem to be there, lying at the back of the personality. The infinite longing contradicts the finite affirmation and, therefore, life is before us as a great contradiction. Everywhere we see problems, and no problem is finally capable of solution. Kings and ministers, statesmen, work hard throughout their lives to solve the problems of life. But they go, and the problems remain, because life is constituted of an insoluble contradiction. Inasmuch as the very basis of our existence is contradiction, no one can find a solution to it. But, is there not a way? The very longing within us is a pointer to the problem capable of solution. Our longings are so firm, so convincing, so irrefutable, so unrelenting that we seem to be enshrining within our own selves a non-finite impulse simultaneously with the finite impulse of bodily affirmation. The control of the mind is, therefore, equal to the finding of the relation between the finite and the Infinite. Great persistence, great understanding and capacity to discriminate is here called for. Ancient masters and seekers of truth, to one of whom I made reference yesterday, had their own way of solution. Sometimes the solutions seem to be very humorous, but very practical. The mind has to be handled in an intelligent manner, but persistently. When we drive a nail continuously on the wall, without changing the spot, with the determination to drive the nail into the wall, it will go inside and yield to our pressure. But, if we strike at one place and find a brick, at another place a stone, in a third place something else, we will not succeed in driving the nail at all. In a similar manner, several methods have to be adopted in a continuous determination to achieve a purpose. This determination takes various phases of expression. It is not that everyone can manifest this determination in the same way. There is a world under every hat, they say, and there is a different type of solution within every individual. My solution is not yours, and yours is not somebody else's. Peculiarity, novelty, and a kaleidoscopic character of the method to be adopted, -- all these are some of the features of spiritual determination. There are some stories of humorous instances adopted by great saints and sages. We will be inclined to laugh at these analogies, but they are very practical and prove very useful. There was a great saint called Swami Narayana. His followers are very large in the area of Gujarat, though he hailed from Uttar Pradesh. One day he observed some villagers struggling with a cow. They were unable to milk it because it was giving a kick the moment anybody approached it. They could not go near the cow. Whenever it felt that somebody was coming near it, it would kick with its foot. Swami Narayana was not only a saint but also a seeker in himself. He told these villagers, "I shall find a way of stopping this kicking." He took a long stick and, sitting a little away from the cow, slowly touched the cow's leg with that stick; it gave a kick immediately. After a few seconds he again touched it; it gave another kick. He sat there for the whole day, without taking food from morning to evening, doing only one work, -- touching the leg of the cow with the stick. To the surprise of all the people who were witnessing this phenomenon, for a continuous twelve hours, this touching went on. How long will the cow give a kick? It is also a living being. It got fed up, tired, and stopped kicking. Then he told them to milk the cow; it never kicked afterwards. The mind is turbulent in some way of this kind. It has to be treated in the same way as the swami treated the cow. Whatever we say, the mind will not agree. It has its own voice and something else to say, quite different from what we are wanting it to do. If we say, "Do this," it will say, "No, I will do another thing." There was a couple, husband and wife. The wife always did the opposite of what the husband said. If he said, "Today will you prepare some good meal with coconut?" she would say, "No, I will not use coconut." She would make a thin, watery dal and give him. Then, he would say, "Today I am not feeling well, so don't make any dish. I want only a little thin watery dal.No, I will make a good dish for you," she said, and she made a sumptuous meal, and he took it. "Today some venerable guests are coming," he said; "Will you cook some good meal for them?" She said, "No, I will not. I will give only water to the guests." Then, after some days, when the visitors were actually expected, he told the wife, "Today I am not expecting anybody and I don't think any special meal is necessary." "No, I will make a very good meal for twenty people," she said, and she cooked twenty people's food; the visitors came and they were fed. This is what the mind is telling us: "I will not listen to you. You may say anything, but I have some other way." How will you deal with it? Use the same way as the husband or Swami Narayana handled the situation. Sometimes, we may have failure when offering a frontal attack to the mind. A direct attack is not always going to be a success even in military operations. Great wisdom is to be exercised. We have to retreat, we have to move forward, we have to become invisible for some time, if necessary. There was a fierce bull. If it saw any human being from a distance, it would make a hissing noise through its nose. There was a gentleman who decided to control that bull. How will he control it, if he cannot go near it? What he did was that he built a fence around that fierce bull. Now, one step for success has been taken, -- the bull cannot go outside the limit of the fence. Previously, it could roam anywhere and attack anyone on the road; now it cannot go, because a fence is there. Likewise, do to the mind. It goes everywhere, roaming throughout the world, wanting anything and rejecting anything. Put a fence over it: within this limit only it must operate. Give it whatever it wants within the limitation; do not deny everything. The bull was within the fence. The next step was that the gentleman took a bundle of green grass, thrust his hand through the wire fence and showed the bull the grass. The bull slowly came near. The man knew very well the ferocity of the bull, -- he could not touch it. But, because of the grass, it forgot the man outside and was thinking only of the grass. He fed it every day; daily feeding it with grass was his only work, so that the bull became acquainted with the personality of this individual. Every day it was seeing the same person. Then, with or without the grass he could gently touch the bull's forehead, and it would just look up. Then he lessened the circle of the fence and made it more restricted, so that it was not more than a few square yards; he could go on patting the bull with his hand continuously, and feeding it with green grass. The acquaintance became so intense that the bull started slowly licking the hand of the gentleman. It developed an affection for him. Previously, fierce it was; animosity was its nature. It became friendly because of this affectionate treatment; it yielded to his touch. Then he removed the fence and went near it with the grass. Without the fencing he went near it, touched it, gave the grass, patted it on the head, and even sat on its back. Can you imagine the success, to the surprise of all people? The ways of saints, the methods adopted by masters and seekers of yore, are very interesting. They are not always logically rigid, but a beautifully construed methodology of handling the mind. I have told you many years back, perhaps, a Sufi saint's story. There was a great mystic called Jalaluddin Rumi in the Middle Ages. He had many followers. He recited an instance of how a person can change himself by changing his circumstances. There was a Sufi guru who had several followers and disciples, many of whom were poor Arabs, but very devoted to their master. One of them came in the early morning to pay homage to his master. The master asked, "How are you, my dear boy?" "Master, I am living in hell." "What is the trouble with you?" "I have one room only, which is a small area where I have my family, my wife and two children. There inside I cook my food. I have a camel which brays continuously, and there is a dog barking all night. We cannot sleep. You can imagine our condition. Don't you think, Master, that this is veritable hell?" The master said, "There is no problem; I can solve this difficulty." The obedience of disciples to the master was so amazing, especially in ancient times, that they would not argue with the guru. Though his suggestions may look funny, irrational, and sometimes unusual, the devotion and submission to the guru supersedes rationality. The guru told the disciple, "Tonight you tie the dog inside your house when you go to bed." The man could not understand what kind of solution this was, but obedience is obedience. The dog made matters worse. It went on barking inside the room and howled throughout the night. Nobody slept even for a minute. The disciple went to the guru the next morning. The guru said, "Hello, how are you?" The man said, "I cannot say anything. It is worse than hell. The dog did not allow us to sleep." "There is a solution for it. You have got a camel? Tie it inside." He thought, "What is this? Am I going to be alive?" But the guru is guru, and he did not say a word against him. He tied the camel inside the room. There was no space to sit. The camel occupied the entire area, making kicks and jumps, and the dog was barking also, the fireplace was giving sparks, the children were crying, the wife was standing only, and he was also sitting. The next morning he went to the guru and said, "I cannot speak, Master. I am dying today. I think it is the last day for me. I thought it was hell; this is worse than hell." "I will find a solution for it, the guru said. Tie the camel out; put the dog also out." He slept very well that night,<197>no noise, no disturbance of any kind. The next morning he went to the guru. The guru asked, "How are you?" "Heaven, heaven!" he said. "Heaven? Hey! You came to me in the beginning, saying it is hell. Now how has it become heaven?" he asked. "Do not complain." The mind is a great mystery. It can deceive you every moment and tell you everything is wrong, -- nothing is good anywhere, everybody is foolish, the world is a devil's abode and it is better to be rid of it. It will go on telling all kinds of things; yet, till the last moment of your breath, the desire to live long will not leave you. You may be a patient with incurable disease, utterly poverty stricken, but you would like to continue the existence in this body as much as possible. Nobody would like to abolish the personality, destroy one's individuality, negate one's existence. Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 Namaste Dennis-ji, The only thoughts 'mind' has are desires. The buddhi is the instrument that can be used to discriminate but generally is not! Operationally, mind is the attention given to an object. All thoughts are brahman only after one achieves that ideal, else they are only potentially so. Cloth and mirror are both objects that reflect light, but the mirror reflects it better than a cloth; similarly, when one gains mastery over the mind [desires] the reflection of the soul is more genuine. Regards, s. advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote: > > The school I attended was very keen on this particular topic and my belief > is that it is manas that indulges in discursive thought as well as its > primary function of transmitting data from the senses. (If working > correctly, it *only* does this, without adding anything else, but usually > has to add its two penny worth.) Buddhi is responsible for discriminating, > not thinking. > > More significantly, you also said "Thoughts are also brahman, but only > certain ones can reflect the glory of the Divine." > > I would have to differ here. Since *all* thoughts are brahman, how can only > those that we, aha~Nkaara, choose to think important, reflect the glory? > Surely, all manifestations, from the most sublime to the most degrading (to > the sincere seeker) are equally nothing other than Brahman. > > Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 Chiming in here with Sadananda-ji, In spite of very prevalent misunderstandings, the goal of purity can't possibly be an empty mind. Because the mind is not a container like a pot. It is nothing other than thoughts - try to find or even define a totally empty mind, absent of thought. Or, try doing these things without the use of thoughts!! :-) In _Self-Unfoldment_, Swami Chinmayananda gives some tips on purifying the mind. A purified mind is still a mind, it's not empty, and it is accomplished through karma, bhakti and raja yoga, among other things. Swamiji makes it clear that these are expedient means, to facilitate the deep insight that I am not the mind, and that I am not an empty mind, but beyond the mind, intellect, beyond all the sheaths and all the gunas. In purifying the mind, we : -reduce the quantity of thoughts (but not to a permanent zero) -improving the quality of thoughts (think about the Lord, texts, etc.) -change the direction of thoughts (Inward instead of outward) Hari OM! --Greg At 04:10 AM 4/25/01, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote: > >"Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda >advaitin >Re: Some thoughts on Purity of Mind! >Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:03:33 > >>Ram Chandran >>>Pure water is tasteless and similarly pure mind is thoughtless. >The mind of a >>new-born child is pure and is thoughtless and does not reject or accept any >>‘food' through the sense organs. The new born child is the nirguna Brahman >>and the ‘guna' is manifested by the saguna Brahman which include the >>parents, relatives and all others who come to contact with the child. The >>Brahman is sole master of this magical of transformation of the nirguna to >>saguna and this is His ‘mAyA.' > >Little clarification, >Mind is the throughts - Thoughtless is mind is no mind at all. Thoughtless >mind is the mind which has no capacity to think. Pure mind is does not mean >it is thoughtless mind. To think is the nature of the mind. People >misunderstand that one should stop thinking to reach a state of liberation. >The process itself becomes a strainful and thought suppression - Liberation >is inspite of the mind not devoid of the mind. Hence the emphasis on the >inquiry with the mind, of the mind. Manasantu kim margane kR^ite - say >Ramana inquire what is the mind. In the proprocess of inquiry one transends >the mind in the sense one sees one self in through the mind that he is >beyond the mind. "I am not the mind' is the realization - They are in me - >they meaning mind, body and intellect etc plus all the world are in me, but >I am not in them - starting from I am not the mind, body and intellect. I >am inclusive of them but they are not inclusive of me - It is like your open >and closed sets you onces tried to describe the state - while it is beyond >the states. > >>the purest mind will not have any identity (ego). It is the identity that >>brings the form and the gunas and consequently the mind of such a person is >>filled with ‘thoughts.' > >Thougts in the pure mind is the thoughts of the Lord himself - thoughts and >the Lord still exist as long as the mind or the upaadhiis exist. What is >realized is I am not the mind with the thoughts. I am beyond the mind that >has the thoughts. Hence reinforce again pure mind is not a thoughtless >mind. > > >Hari OM! >Sadananda >_______________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >Please Note the New Changes at the Mail Server >For details, visit: /local/news.html >Post message: advaitin >Subscribe: advaitin- >Un: advaitin >URL to Advaitin: advaitin >File folder: advaitin >Link Folder: advaitin/links >Messages Folder: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2001 Report Share Posted April 26, 2001 Namaste Gregji: First, the goal of purity is not just empty mind or no thoughts but the goal is Self-realization or human liberation. The goal of purity is the transformation of Jiva into the Brahman! Brahman has neither the mind nor any thoughts! With the purity, mind and thoughts both simultaneously disappear. Every thought is an `illusion' and self-realized person should necessarily free from illusions! Does it not imply that Brahman will have neither the mind nor the thought? Actually what Brahman has only the Brahman knows. We can speculate any number of frameworks, assumptions, definitions, illustrations, examples, etc. It seems that we all want to be the Brahman; we also want to `think' and we do not want to dispose of our mind! It seems that we want to have the cake and ate it too! One thing that I agree wholeheartedly. Our creative mind starts with the Brahman and then to explain the Brahman, we invented many frameworks, definitions, assumptions knowing fully well that it is beyond the human intellect to conceptualize the Brahman! At the end we also understand that we have to dismantle all the illusionary creations to realize the same Brahman that we originally started with. The sages of the Upanishads correctly said: "The more we know, the more we don't know!" The final answer to this puzzle is also answered by the sages: "Brahman only knows the Brahman." Note: Finally I want to admit that it is impossible for me or any one to resolve the various puzzles that we entertained during these discussions intellectually to the full satisfaction of everyone. This is my last post and I want just listen and stop all intellectual debates from my side. advaitin, Greg Goode <goode@D...> wrote: > Chiming in here with Sadananda-ji, > > In spite of very prevalent misunderstandings, the goal of purity can't > possibly be an empty mind. Because the mind is not a container like a pot. > It is nothing other than thoughts - try to find or even define a totally > empty mind, absent of thought. Or, try doing these things without the use > of thoughts!! :-) > > In _Self-Unfoldment_, Swami Chinmayananda gives some tips on purifying the > mind. A purified mind is still a mind, it's not empty, and it is > accomplished through karma, bhakti and raja yoga, among other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2001 Report Share Posted April 27, 2001 Ram Chandran [rchandran] Note: Finally I want to admit that it is impossible for me or any one to resolve the various puzzles that we entertained during these discussions intellectually to the full satisfaction of everyone. This is my last post and I want just listen and stop all intellectual debates from my side. ____ Beginning of wisdom! :-). Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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