Question - Gita Satsang - Chapter 6 : Verses 21-25

April 30, 2001

Beautifully put Sundarji! I had missed the earlier posts on this.

One thing to keep in mind is that the overwhelming number of the Swamis (no

matter how well known or well established) who speak about Nirvikalpa

Samadhi do not have the actual experience or the fundamental Self-Knowledge

that is needed to speak authoritatively or meaningfully on the topic. With

such people one sees half truths which are given their own unique twist.

These things cannot be picked up from scriptures haphazardly or from

commentaries written by scholars.

In the old days, people stayed with the Guru for 12 years and engaged in

serious spiritual practices and inquiry for prolonged periods of times. Even

then, they stayed silent for years deepening their knowledge. Still, there

is no guarantee that a person has Truly Known the Self. To understand all

these things and to speak meaningfully one needs actual practical direct

experience. One needs to eat the mango ice cream to truly appreciate its

taste. It is not enough have the title of Swami.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi usually takes place after already having gone through

many types of Savikalpa Samadhis. Even then, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is due to

Grace only of the Lord of the Heart. At that point, no effort can be made.

Total surrender and absence of will must be there. This only happens by

Grace. It is only through Grace that the mind simply stops, drops, and

consciously merges with the Lord of Heart, One's Own Self.

For discussion and information on Nirvikalpa and Sahaj Samadhi the words of

Ramana Maharshi are authoritative.

Love to all

Harsha

_________________

Sundar Rajan had written.

When the Self is realized whatever has to be accomplished stands

accomplished, and whatever has to be acquired stands acquired. Hence

there is nothing higher than the relization of the Self

(Apastamba Dharma Sutras, 1.22.2)

=== Quote from Gudharta Deepika ends ==================

So here are my questions:

(1) When a spiritual aspirant acheives Nirvikapla Samadhi

(a) he experiences INFINITE BLISS and even the scriptures eulogise

the state as 'where words fail to describe' etc

(b) Coming down from that state he will even feel that the most

pleasurable of worldly activities is nothing but sheer torture

Given these how can he NOT BE a totally trasformed person by that

hugely uplifting experience?

(2) Long before the sadhaka achieves any time of Samadhi let alone

Nirvikalpa, he would have gone through phases in meditation like these

Deep meditation with very few distracting thoughts,

One pointed concentration,

loss of awareness of sound,

loss of awareness of body and surroundings,

Savikalpa Samadhi

In each stage, he would have experienced increasing Bliss or Joy and

would have the ability to sit in meditaion for hours.

AND even in the beginning stages the effects of meditation

(pleasantness,joy, inner tranquility) spill over well into the daily

activities long after meditation.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is an experience that is BEYOND WORDS. So I doubt

such a advanced sadhaka would 'come down' by the sound of a vacuum

cleaner. And even if he did, the stunning experience will reverberate

for a long, long time.

If a aspirant can get Nirvikapla Samadhi I have read that he is so

advanced, all he has to do is steady that experience (make

it 'sahaja') and he becomes a fully realized person.

So I am not sure I agree with the commentary relegating Nirvikalpa

Samadhi to an 'experience that ends'.

Sundar Rajan

April 30, 2001

namaste shri sundarrajanji and thanks for those very thoughtful

comments. And also, welcome to the List.

Although your observation is quite correct, from my understanding,

the following point still need to be made.

The state where you are in constant and continuous knowledge

that you are the Atman, and moving through the jagat as the

personification of that Knowledge is the highest state.

Nirvikalpa samAdhi, as shri swami Dayanandaji has said, is a

state where the knower and the knowledge are one and the same.

But we will be out of samAdhi at some stage or other, if not

by the disturbance of the vacuum cleaner but by our own mental

vr^itti. When one comes out of nirvikalpa samAdhi, what then?

If a person is rattled by the sound of a vacuum cleaner, then

he/she has still the seed of ajnAna. Irrespective of the samAdhi,

if the seed of ajnAna is completely annihilated, then is the state

of sukhamAtyantikam.

While agreeing with shri Harshaji about shri RamaNa maharShi's

teachings, I do not see a difference in this context of what

swami Dayanandaji is saying and what shri RamaNa maharShi was

saying. Please see in this context shri RamaNa's sayings,

for e.g. at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/crumbs.htm

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

April 30, 2001

Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy]

While agreeing with shri Harshaji about shri RamaNa maharShi's

teachings, I do not see a difference in this context of what

swami Dayanandaji is saying and what shri RamaNa maharShi was

saying. Please see in this context shri RamaNa's sayings,

for e.g. at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/crumbs.htm

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

Sri Murthyji, we are reading from different perspectives. With all due

respect, Swami Dayanandaji's words do not capture the essence of Nirvikalpa

Samadhi.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not like being in a coma or in deep sleep as Swami

Dayanandaji appears to suggest and the impact of Nirvikalpa is not like that

of waking up from deep sleep or a coma.

Here is the difference. A person who goes to sleep communes with the Self

unconsciously. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi the communion is fully *conscious*.

It is clearly recognized in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that there is no break in

continuity of consciousness. There is Only Fullness of Consciousness. Due to

this, the person who opens his eyes from Nirvikalpa has realized the

continuity of the essential principle of consciousness from the waking state

to the deep sleep state and back again to the waking state.

He has gone through the complete cycle *Consciously* and Knows without

thought or doubt the True Self-Nature. Such a person Knows, "It Is Just Me

in every state! It is Me (as Pure Consciousness) even in the total absence

of the mind! I am Truly Sat-Chit-Ananda! I AM ETERNAL AND WHOLE AND EXIST

WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!" These are not words but actual experiences

which words barely can express.

In Mano Laya, the mind lies absorbed in the Self but due to latent

tendencies tends to rise up again. However, when the mind *consciously*

comes out of the Self, it is literally completely saturated with the

Self-Light, and realizes it has always been infused with the Light of

Awareness, the Light of the Heart, which is never absent! Consciousness

cannot become forgetful of itself. I don't know how to explain it any

better, but it does not become ignorant again in the same way. The

conviction, knowledge, and the perpetual vital recognition of one who has

communed with the Self *consciously* has a different quality altogether.

Only total mukti has not been obtained due to remaining vasanas. Ramana

Maharshi has stated that deep enquiry (self-awareness) must continue in

order to uproot all these tendencies. That is not meant to downplay the

significance of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but to only point at the importance of

steadying the experience in all states.

Here are Ramana Maharshi's words that you gave the reference to. By the way,

Sri Ramana had many more conversations on the topic which can shed more

light. I will address a second point after that.

Devotee: What is samadhi?

Bhagavan: When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is

called nidra (sleep) i.e. the involution of the mind in ignorance.

Involution in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi. Samadhi is

continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or sleep is also

inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In sahaja samadhi the

communion is continuous.

_________________-

Now Murthyji, we come to the second point. That of the distinction between

Nirvikalpa and Sahaj Samadhi. Nirvikalpa in most cases is a step towards the

Sahaj state, sometimes immediate, but generally followed by continued

Self-Awareness.

_____________________

Again, Ramana Maharshi describes it as follows:

Bhagavan: The involution of the mind in the Self, but without its

destruction, is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. There are four obstacles in this,

namely, vacillation of:

i. mind

ii. life breath or prana

iii. body,

iv. drishti.

In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi one is not free from vasanas and does not,

therefore, attain mukti. Only after the samskaras have been destroyed can

one attain salvation.

____________

So we see Ramana Maharshi saying that all the latent tendencies must be

destroyed before attaining mukti by continuous Self-Awareness. However,

Nirvikalpa Samadhi, being a *conscious communion* with the Self, reveals

fully the nature of Self-Awareness and shows the way to mukti.

One notable incident that comes to mind is that of Kunju Swami meeting Sri

Ramana and obtaining the experience of Self many times in Sri Ramana's

presence and then going home. Later he came back and asked the Sage, why the

experience was intermittent. Ramana Maharshi then read to him from Kaivalya

Navneeta and explained how continuous practice was necessary to steady the

experience.

Again Sri Ramana's words on Sahaj Samadhi.

_________________________________

D: When can one practice sahaja samadhi?

B: Even from the beginning. Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa

samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas, he will

not attain salvation.

_________________________________

What does Sri Ramana mean when he says from the beginning? He means that our

state is truly Sahaj! So we should not think of ourselves as ignorant and

that we should practice the Sahaj state (of Self-Awareness) from the very

beginning until it becomes recognized as truly Sahaj! We should have that

firm conviction with devoted Self-Awareness, that regardless of any

experiences we have had, and regardless of any latent tendencies, our True

Nature is Pure, Stainless, and Self-Evident as Pure Consciousness. This is

the path of uprooting the latent tendencies.

Love to all

Harsha

-

May 1, 2001

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Harsha wrote:

> Sri Murthyji, we are reading from different perspectives. With all due

> respect, Swami Dayanandaji's words do not capture the essence of Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi.

>

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not like being in a coma or in deep sleep as Swami

> Dayanandaji appears to suggest and the impact of Nirvikalpa is not like that

> of waking up from deep sleep or a coma.

>

namaste shri Harshaji,

This is my understanding.

I agree with you to the extent that swami Dayanandaji (in this

context) may be a bit harsh on nirvikalpa samAdhi, but I think

it is to be read in context.

I also agree with you to the extent that one coming out of

nirvikalpa samAdhi is in a 'more advanced' state of realization

than one without that experience.

However, you seem to be saying that nirvikalpa samAdhi is very

close to mukti and seem to be taking support for that view from

shri RamaNa maharShi's sayings.

I like to present my understanding in two aspects: one is the

context of shri swami Dayanandaji's comments, i.e, the

bhagavadgItA 6.21 and specifically sukhamAtyantikam, the

infinite, unending (continuous) bliss. The second aspect of

my discussion is shri RamaNa maharShi's comments themselves

on nirvikalpa and sahaja samAdhi.

BhagavadgItA 6.21 deals with sukhamAtyantikam, i.e. the

infinite bliss. While in nirvikalpa samAdhi, yes, there is

*experience* of infinite bliss. It is continuous while in

samAdhi, but ends when person comes out of samAdhi. After

coming out of samAdhi, the person is a transformed person,

being much more sAttvic compared to before this experience,

but still with not continuous infinite bliss. Further,

although while in samAdhi, the experience and the experiencer

merge, after coming out of samAdhi, the experience and the

experiencer become separate and the experiencer is there to

try to put in words what that experience is. That is not

sukhamAtyantikam.

In the second part, shri RamaNa Himself made a distinction

between nirvikalpa and sahaja samAdhi-s. I give below an

excerpt from TALKS WITH SHRI RAMANA MAHARSHI, p154.

MaharShi says:

"... [in kevala nirvikalpa samAdhi], the mind lies immersed

in the Light of the Self (whereas the same lies in the darkness

of ignorance in deep sleep). The subject discriminates one from

the other, -samAdhi, stirring up from samAdhi, and activity

thereafter, unrest of the body, of the sight, of the vital

force and of the mind, the cognizance of objects and activity,

are all obstructions for him."

" In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self

and has been lost. Differences and obstructions mentioned above

do not therefore exist here. The activities of such a being are

like the feeding of a somnolent boy, perceptible to the onlooker

(but not to the subject). The driver sleeping on a moving cart

is not aware of the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk

in darkness. Similarly the sahaja jnAni remains unaware of his

bodily activities because his mind is dead - having been resolved

in the ecstasy of chid Ananda (Self)."

"..."

" Sleep

1. mind alive

2. sunk in oblivion

kevala [nirvikalpa samAdhi]

1. mind alive

2. sunk in Light

3. like a bucket with the rope, left lying in the water

in a well

4. to be drawn out by the other end of the rope

sahaja [samAdhi]

1. mind dead

2. resolved into the Self

3. like a river discharged into the ocean and its

identity lost

4. a river cannot be redirected from the ocean "

Thus, from shri RamaNa maharShi also, there is difference between

kevala nirvikalpa and sahaja samAdhi-s and the difference is

considerable, taking the activity of the mind. I am sure you

agree with this as you have also stated in your post, quoting

shri ramaNa, fairly similar differences between nirvikalpa and

sahaja samAdhi-s.

I would interpret shri swami Dayanandaji's comment on BG6.21 as

context-sensitive, highlighting the *infinite, unending, continuous

bliss, sukhamAtyantikam* and in that highlighting of the infinite

nature of the bliss, it may be necessary to accentuate the

difference between the nature of samAdhi-s.

> [...]

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--

May 1, 2001

Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy]

namaste shri Harshaji,

This is my understanding.

I agree with you to the extent that swami Dayanandaji (in this

context) may be a bit harsh on nirvikalpa samAdhi, but I think

it is to be read in context.

_________

*****Thank you Sri Murthyji for your response. I am not concerned about

Swamiji's statements being harsh. Respectfully Murthyji and with due

respect to Swamiji, my essential point was that the statements are

confusing and inconsistent with the scriptures and the practical

experience of sages.

For example, Swami Dayanandaji states, "

"There are those who will tell you that once you experience

> nirvikalpa-samadhi and you come out of that experience, the world

> will be different. They also say that you experience the atma in

> nirvikalpa-samadhi. How can this be? All that happened was that the

> knower-known-knowledge difference coalesced. All differences

> disappeared — a desirable experience, no doubt."

*********Swamiji here appears to be questioning whether in Nirvikalpa

Samadhi the Atma (Self) is experienced (known directly) or not. Perhaps

Murthyji, you or one of the learned members here can comment on this and

clarify what Swamiji means.

Murthyji, you go on to state:

"I also agree with you to the extent that one coming out of

nirvikalpa samAdhi is in a 'more advanced' state of realization

than one without that experience.

However, you seem to be saying that nirvikalpa samAdhi is very

close to mukti and seem to be taking support for that view from

shri RamaNa maharShi's sayings."

************Thank you for making an excellent presentation on the

difference between Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Sahaj Samadhi, citing Sri

Ramana's words. I am in agreement with you Murthyji and see no major

differences in our understanding of Sri Ramana's words. Our perspectives

may differ slightly due to our backgrounds. Ramana Maharshi had many

conversations on these topics and they are of immense benefit to

practitioners.

Here are some of Sri Ramana's words on I believe page 141 of the

"Talks",

" Jnana once revealed takes time to steady itself. The Self is certainly

within the direct experience of everyone but not as one imagines it to

be. It is only as it is. The experience is Samadhi. Owing to

fluctuations in vasanas, Jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady

Jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side

by side with vasansa.........."

Love to all

Harsha

May 1, 2001

Hi. I am presuming that this nirvikalpa samadhi must be what Buddhists

call shunyata (or sunya)? Sometimes I wonder what the meaning is of

these words.

Regards,

Col

> >

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> --

May 1, 2001

Nirvikalpaka and Savikalpaka

Vikalpa means distinction between `me,' the Brahman and the world.

Nirvikalpaka means without distinctions.

Savikalpaka means the persistence of the distinction between `me,' and

`Brahman' and the world.

Samadhi

The total absorption in the object of concentration. In Vedanta the

object is the unity of Atman with Brahman. Samadhi is of two kinds:

savikalpaka and nirvikalpaka. In the savikalpaka samadhi the

consciousness of one's own personality as distinct from Brahman,

persists, however declined it may be. In the nirvikalpaka state,

however, all awareness of multiplicity including that of oneself as

distinct from Brahman is completely dissolved.

Source: A Dictionary of Advaita Vedanta, by Swami Harshananda,

Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore, India. (This is an excellent reference

book for everyone interested in Advaita).

advaitin, colette@b... wrote:

> Hi. I am presuming that this nirvikalpa samadhi must be what

Buddhists

> call shunyata (or sunya)? Sometimes I wonder what the meaning is of

> these words.

>

> Regards,

>

> Col

>

> > >

> >

> > Regards

> > Gummuluru Murthy

> >

--

May 1, 2001

> "There are those who will tell you that once you experience

>> nirvikalpa-samadhi and you come out of that experience, the world

>> will be different. They also say that you experience the atma in

>> nirvikalpa-samadhi. How can this be? All that happened was that

>> the knower-known-knowledge difference coalesced. All differences

>> disappeared — a desirable experience, no doubt."

Sri Murthyji,

Thanks for welcoming me to this egroup. The sixth chapter of Gita is

such an important chapter especially for those of us following the

Path of Meditation that it is important to understand and assimilate

the Lord's teachings in its true context.

With all due respect, the above commentary attributed to Swami

Dayanandaji especially the following:

>> They also say that you experience the atma in

>> nirvikalpa-samadhi. How can this be?

does not correspond to the descriptions either in the Scriptures or

the practical experiences of great Yogis.

I am going to present my understanding by way of Vivekachudmani and a

direct narrative from the practical experience of a Great Yogi.

Here are relevant verses describing Nirvikalpa Samadhi from Sankara's

celeberated work - Vivekachudamani:

============ Quote from VivekaChudmani ==============================

When thus purified by continuous practice, the mind merges in

Brahman, then there is Nirvikalpa-samadhi, which brings about the

effortless experience of non-dual bliss (363)

Verse starting with Samadhinanana..

By this samadhi, there occurs the destruction of the know of

impressions, the annihilation of all one's actions and the

manifestation, without effort, of one's true nature, within and

without, everywhere and for ever (364)

(In the above verse Sankara clearly states that one's true nature is

manifested (experienced) in Nirvikalpa-samadhi )

Reflection on the Truth is a hundred times superior to hearing.

Meditation on the truth is a hundred thousand times greater than

reflection. Nirvikalpa-samadhi is infinitely superior to that (365)

============ Quote from VivekaChudmani ==============================

Adi Sankara clearly stated that the Atma is perceived in Nirvikalpa-

Samadhi in verse 364 of Vivekachudamani.

Next I would like to quote the following from the book "Yoga,

Enlightenment and Perfection" detailing the spiritual disciplines

practised by Sri Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswamigal, 35th Pontiff

(Sankaracharya) of Sringeri Sarada Peetam. This narrative contains

His first experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (happened in 1935 when the

Acharyal was about 18 years of age)

============ Quote from book =====================================

I reached My place of meditation on the hill around one and half

hours before sunset. Sitting in the siddhasana, I performed two

cycles of pranayama..(Acharyal then describes his meditation

technique on page 173. For sake of brevity I have continued the

narrative from page 174) I felt Myself expanding and becoming like

space. The sense of I nearly vanished and My mind entered Savikalpa-

samadhi.

The bliss was very great. However, with effort, I restrained Myself

from being overwhelmed by it and thought, "I am not the one

experiencing bliss but am bliss itself.". In a trice, a sharp change

occurred. Awareness of the distinction of the concentrator,

concentration and the object of concentration completely disappeared.

No more was there any sense of individuality or of space,time and

objects. Only Brahman, of the nature of absolute existence, pure

consciousness and ultimate bliss, shone bereft of the superimposition

of even a trace of duality.

After about two hours, the mind descended to the level of savikalpa-

samadhi and mild awareness of the distinction of the

concentrator ,concentration and the object of concentration

reappeared. Though the bliss of savikalpa-samadhi was by far greater

than the joy of any worldly enjoyment, it was nothing compared to the

absolute, non-dual bliss of Nirvikalpa-samadhi. Gradually, I became

lightly aware of the body and of the build up of breathing that must

have almost totally stopped earlier.

When I opened My eyes, I could see the scene in front of Me and yet

did not see it, for I was quite indifferent to the apparent diversity

rooted in names and forms. So clear was the realization that I was of

the very nature of absolute existence that I apprehended nothing

whatsoever as existing apart from Me. Everything was like bubbles on

the ocean that was Myself. When I rose after some time, My body felt

light like cotton wool and as I walked down the hill, it seemed as if

I were on a moving canoe.

After about an hour the apprehension, "I am the Supreme Brahman other

than which there is nothing" stared to slowly weaken from being on

par with perceiving a fruit in one's open palm. However, even when

its attenuation stopped, it was much stronger than it had been when I

had sat down to meditate.

=========== Qute ends ===========================================

Quoted from pages 173-176 of the book "Yoga, Enlightenment and

Perfection" detailing the spiritual disciplines practised by Sri

Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswamigal, 35th Pontiff (Sankaracharya) of

Sringeri Sarada Peetam.

May 2, 2001

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

Thanks Ram. And sunya?

Wondering,

Col

> Nirvikalpaka and Savikalpaka

> Vikalpa means distinction between `me,' the Brahman and the world.

> Nirvikalpaka means without distinctions.

> Savikalpaka means the persistence of the distinction between `me,'

and

> `Brahman' and the world.

> ------

May 2, 2001

Namaste,

Harshaji's comments came closest to my understanding

of 'shunya'; 'VOID' of misery. In Vedantic terms, misery is equated

with 'ignorance'; ignorance of the true nature of ego.

The integral experience of Reality is verbalised as 'The Dance

of Nataraja'; or as in Taittiriya Upanishad: 'ahaM vR^ikshasya

rerivaH', etc. ['I am the mover of this Tree of Samsara'].

In Jnaneshvara's famous 'abhanga', he says:

"avaghaachi sa.nsaara sukhaachaa kariina .

aanande.n bhariina tinhii loka .." etc.

[having realised THAT, I] shall make the universe happy.

I shall fill all the three worlds with bliss.

Regards,

s.

advaitin, colette@b... wrote:

> advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

>

> Thanks Ram. And sunya?

>

> Wondering,

>

> Col

>

May 2, 2001

namaste shri Harshaji and shri Sundarrajanji,

Thanks for your comments. I can well appreciate your concerns

re shri swami Dayanandaji's commentary in this context. shri

swamiji is the best person to clear up your concerns. As you

know, shri swamiji is not a member of our List and has only

graciously consented for his commentary to be used as a resource

material in our bhagavadgItA deliberations. I will forward your

questions to shri swamiji either through shri Ram Chandran (who

is presenting the swamiji's commentary courtesy of a swamini from

the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam, I believe) or myself directly. Hopefully,

swamiji will respond to clear up our doubts.

I still would interpret it as a context-sensitive (in the context

of BG 6.21) comment, but leave further amplification to the pujya

swamiji.

In the meanwhile, we will continue our discussion of the bhagavdgItA

presentations.

[ seems to be distributing messages a bit unevenly

since yesterday; my post of yesterday on this topic has been

redistributed again; shri sundarrajan's post, which I saw at

early this morning was delivered only a few minutes

ago; hopefully, these problems are temporary.]

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

May 7, 2001

Namaste,

Sri Gummuluru has sent me an Email requesting me to forward the

questions raised by Sri Sundar Rajan and Sri Harsha to Swamiji to get

clarification from him. I thought about it for few days and decided

not to forward to him for the following reason.

First, Swamiji is not only a scholar but person with great discipline,

dedication and compassion. I strongly believe that he is right and

also the objections raised by Sri Sundar and Sri Harsha only add some

caveats to Swamiji's assessment. Let me explain: We need to

understand the distinction between

God or SELF-Realization and "Assuming God SELF-Realizaiton."

'Experiencing Nirvikalpa-samadhi' and "Assuming Nirvikalpa-Samadhi."

The person who says that he/she experienced 'nirvikalpa-samadhi'

can't describe intellectually that experience. When someone makes the

claim 'that the world will be different after the experience' may

either just makes a bluff or is just ignorant of the true experience.

Sri Rajan and Sri Harsha seem to look at "Nivikalpa-samadhi" purely on

a definitional point of view. The point is, can we really define what

is 'Nirvikalpa-Samadhi' using intellectual means. The answer is

ofcourse absolutely, 'NO!' The moment that we bring our intellect to

juggle in understanding Vedanta, we will evitably face contradictions

as we see during this discussion.

In conclusion, I do not want to forward this to Swamiji at this time.

I am quite aware that someone from Arshavidya Gurukulam will be

reading these discussions and may very well raise a question or two

with Swamiji. Swamiji has been very kind to share his notes to the

benefit of this list and I do not want to tax him anymore.

warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, sundar_rajan@h... wrote:

> > "There are those who will tell you that once you experience

> >> nirvikalpa-samadhi and you come out of that experience, the world

> >> will be different. They also say that you experience the atma in

> >> nirvikalpa-samadhi. How can this be? All that happened was that

> >> the knower-known-knowledge difference coalesced. All differences

> >> disappeared — a desirable experience, no doubt."

>

> Sri Murthyji,

>

> Thanks for welcoming me to this egroup. The sixth chapter of Gita is

> such an important chapter especially for those of us following the

> Path of Meditation that it is important to understand and assimilate

> the Lord's teachings in its true context.

>

> With all due respect, the above commentary attributed to Swami

> Dayanandaji especially the following:

>

> >> They also say that you experience the atma in

> >> nirvikalpa-samadhi. How can this be?

>

> does not correspond to the descriptions either in the Scriptures or

> the practical experiences of great Yogis.

May 7, 2001

Ram,

I wouldn't be afraid to ask the Swami the question, what could it

hurt?

But I just read the question again... and it dawned on me...

If I get into Nirvilkalpa Samadhi (I don't know if I do, but I do

meditate), then certainly when I come out of it the world is

changed.... or rather, my clouded mind is temporarily clear but as

the mental coloring or fog returns due to the habitual tendencies, it

goes back to the same old way it was... hopefully a little less so...

and that is why I keep on meditating... so I don't get too lost

again... and because clear is better...

Paul

May 7, 2001

Sri Ramji, thank you for your message and explanation.

My comments about Nirvikalpa Samadhi are based on my experience.

Love to all

Harsha

"Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...>

Mon May 7, 2001 12:09 pm

Re: Question - Gita Satsang - Chapter 6 : Verses 21-25