Yoga and Vedanta/Repost

[Guest guest]

----Original Message-----

Max Harris [max_harris]

Saturday, August 21, 1999 7:38 PM

advaitin

RE: Yoga & Advaita Vedanta

 

"Max Harris" <max_harris

 

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, K Kathirasan posed some interesting questions

about the relationship between Patanjali-type yoga and Advaita

Vedanta. Anyone care to offer some light?

>1. Is the way and goal of Patanjali's Yoga and Advaita Vedanta the same?

 

Harsha: The ways might be a little different, and to the extent that goals

can be talked about in this context, the goal is the same. Kaivalya (from

Patanjali) implies Complete Aloneness. Self is One without a second.

Aloneness can also be interpreted as All-One-Ness. Sri Ramana himself has

said in an answer to a question that Tantra also leads to Self-Realization.

>2. Is Samadhi (Nirvikalpa) the goal of Advaita Vedanta?

 

Harsha: The concept of goals is not exactly a good fit in the philosophy of

Advaita Vedanta. To the extent that goals can be spoken of in the field of

relativity, Nirvikalpa Samadhi in a way, may be considered both the means

and the goal. Sri Ramana has distinguished between Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi

and Sahaj Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Kevala Nirvikalpa is temporary in which the

mind is consciously absorbed in the Self but sprouts back. Ramana Maharshi

points out that although the Self is self evident, It is Recognized as the

Supreme Clarity and as Sat-Chit-Ananda, in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, as the medium

of mind is absent. Here the Self Sees It Self By It Self and Through It

Self. When the vasanas (latent tendencies) are weakened and the Self

spontaneously and effortlessly shines forth in all states of consciousness,

and all states of existence are known to exist in the Self only, that is

Sahaj Samadhi as the mind has completely resolved itself. This is Supreme

Silence. The notion of goal or no goal, seeking or no-seeking, yoga or

vedanta, bondage or liberation can have no meaning here.

 

>3. Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

 

Harsha: I am not a scholar but hold the view that Advaita Vedanta is not

inconsistent with the practices of Yoga.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

As Shankara has expressed repeatedly, advaita does not 'refute'

anything! Advaita incorporates relevant ideas, re-interprets some,

etc.

 

Advaita is paradoxically also called 'asparsha yoga'[Gaudapada-

karika 3:39, 4:2]. Shankara has described this as the 15-step [tri-

pa~ncha-a~Nga in lieu of ashhTa-a~nga] yoga in 'aparokshaanubhuuti',

verses 100-124, and are verbatim, for the most part [verse 102-136,

140, 142], from tejabindu upanishhat [mantras 15-51].

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> ----Original Message-----

> Max Harris [max_harris@p...]

> Saturday, August 21, 1999 7:38 PM

> advaitin

> RE: Yoga & Advaita Vedanta

>

> "Max Harris" <max_harris@p...>

>

> On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, K Kathirasan posed some interesting questions

>

> >3. Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

>

> Harsha: I am not a scholar but hold the view that Advaita Vedanta

is not

> inconsistent with the practices of Yoga.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sunderji for pointing this out. It is much comfort to be in the

company of scriptural scholars of your caliber and understanding.

 

Love

Harsha

 

 

sunderh [sunderh]

Thursday, May 24, 2001 9:14 PM

advaitin

Re: Yoga and Vedanta/Repost

 

 

Namaste,

 

As Shankara has expressed repeatedly, advaita does not 'refute'

anything! Advaita incorporates relevant ideas, re-interprets some,

etc.

 

Advaita is paradoxically also called 'asparsha yoga'[Gaudapada-

karika 3:39, 4:2]. Shankara has described this as the 15-step [tri-

pa~ncha-a~Nga in lieu of ashhTa-a~nga] yoga in 'aparokshaanubhuuti',

verses 100-124, and are verbatim, for the most part [verse 102-136,

140, 142], from tejabindu upanishhat [mantras 15-51].

 

Regards,

 

s.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

> >

> > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, K Kathirasan posed some interesting questions

> >

> > >3. Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

> >

 

The above question that Kathirasan posted is very relevant because as

great a advaitin as Sri Madhusudana Saraswati says, under Gita 6.29,

that Sankarites do not take to Patanjali Yoga!. Having said that he

deals with Patanjali's Yoga exhaustively in his commentary (Gudharta

Dipika) on the sixth chapter.

 

I posted portions from Sri Madhusudana Saraswati's

commentary on the Gita verses 6.35 in msg#9566.

 

If you read his commentary on the sixth chapter you will agree that

Sri Madhusudana Saraswati, one of the foremost Advaitins has also

clearly answered the following question :

> Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

 

Not only did Advaitins including Sankara strongly accepted the path

of Yoga, many practiced meditation as the primary sadhana as is

evident from the writings above and also the life of Sri Sadasiva

Brahmendra and others.

 

Also relevant is this great saying from Sage Yagnavalkya :

 

ayam tu paramo dharmo yadyogenaatmadarshanam

(Realisation of Atma by means of Yoga is indeed the highest dharma)

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste

>From my recent studies, I gathered that Shankara wasn't against the school

of Yoga as a means to purify the mind. In fact, in the last verse of

Aparoskhaanubhuti, Shankara advises the aspirant to practise Hatha Yoga

should he is not capable of following the 15 steps he has formulated. One

thing I noted in that book was Shankara's sharp criticisms on the Ashtanga

Yoga of Patanjali. I have also noticed vehement objections to the school of

Yoga by Swami Vidyaranya in Panchadashi. This can be attributed to the

contention that Advaitins hold that knowledge can only be the means to

liberation. I have noticed in the opening verses of Vivekachoodamani, Atma

Bodha and Dhanyashtakam, the firm stand that Karma can never lead one to

liberation. As it is opposed to knowledge. Since the school of Yoga

essentially deals with actions, therefore it doesn't qualify to be a means

to liberation. But Advaitins do consider all other paths excepting

Knowlegde as a valid means to purify the mind for knowledge to take place.

 

I would appreciate if the learned scholars in this list could comment on

this further. Regards

 

Kathi

>

> Sundar Rajan [sMTP:sundar_rajan]

> Friday, May 25, 2001 1:42 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Yoga and Vedanta/Repost

>

> Namaste,

> > >

> > > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, K Kathirasan posed some interesting questions

> > >

> > > >3. Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

> > >

>

> The above question that Kathirasan posted is very relevant because as

> great a advaitin as Sri Madhusudana Saraswati says, under Gita 6.29,

> that Sankarites do not take to Patanjali Yoga!. Having said that he

> deals with Patanjali's Yoga exhaustively in his commentary (Gudharta

> Dipika) on the sixth chapter.

>

> I posted portions from Sri Madhusudana Saraswati's

> commentary on the Gita verses 6.35 in msg#9566.

>

> If you read his commentary on the sixth chapter you will agree that

> Sri Madhusudana Saraswati, one of the foremost Advaitins has also

> clearly answered the following question :

>

> > Did Sri Sankara refute the philosophy of yoga?

>

> Not only did Advaitins including Sankara strongly accepted the path

> of Yoga, many practiced meditation as the primary sadhana as is

> evident from the writings above and also the life of Sri Sadasiva

> Brahmendra and others.

>

> Also relevant is this great saying from Sage Yagnavalkya :

>

> ayam tu paramo dharmo yadyogenaatmadarshanam

> (Realisation of Atma by means of Yoga is indeed the highest dharma)

>

> regards

> Sundar Rajan

>

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

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> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Namaste.

> From my recent studies, I gathered that Shankara wasn't against the

school

> of Yoga as a means to purify the mind. In fact, in the last verse

of

> Aparoskhaanubhuti, Shankara advises the aspirant to practise Hatha

Yoga

> should he is not capable of following the 15 steps he has

formulated. One

> thing I noted in that book was Shankara's sharp criticisms on the

> Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali.

>

Interesting. The same Sankara has this to say about Nirvikalpa

Samadhi in Vivekachudamani,

 

"Reflection on the Truth is a hundred times superior to hearing.

Meditation on the truth is a hundred thousand times greater than

reflection. Nirvikalpa-samadhi is infinitely superior to that

(Vivekachudamani verse#365)"

 

So here Sankara is clearly extolling the path of Yoga even above the

path of vichara (sravana, manana, nididhihyasana etc)..

> I have also noticed vehement objections to the school of

> Yoga by Swami Vidyaranya in Panchadashi.

 

Swami Vidyaranya, the author of Pachadasi was also the 12th Pontiff

of the Sringeri Mutt(see

http://users.erols.com/ramakris/sringeri/line.html). The line of

succession of Sankaracharyas at Sringeri is an unbroken one from the

days of Sri Adi Sankaracharya and Suresvara. If there is any

spiritual place in the world where Sankara's tradition is fullly

followed to the max, it's a good bet it will be at Sringeri.

 

There is clear, documented evidence that several Acharyals of the

Sringeri Mutt not only strongly adhered to the path of Yoga but

became Supreme, Fully Realized Yogis. Recent examples are the 33rd

pontiff Sacchidananda Sivabhinava Narasimha Bharati, and 35th

pontiff, Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha both of whom had stated their ideal

to be the famous Yogi and Avadhuta Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra who also

wrote a great commentary on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

 

And as posted in msg#9566, other great advaitins such as Sri

Madhusudana Sarawati also wrote exhaustively about Yoga and loved the

path of yoga.

 

My conclusion from all this is that both the path of vichara and the

path of yoga (highest levels of Yoga such as Samadhi are never

acheived without Supreme Bhakti and abudant Grace of the Guru) are

entirely valid paths and both lead to the same goal.

 

What suits one best is to be determined by one's Guru and one's

natural inclination.

 

Some people might not be able to sit in meditation for even a few

minutes (I pity them.. just kidding) but may be able to easily do

vichara.

 

On the other hand there may be others who due to purvajanma samskaras

and Guru's Grace may be able to get good meditation even without

actually trying. These people might think - "Why bother with all this

endless vichara stuff?. Let us sit down and have some real fun. Let

us enjoy the joy and peace of meditation." Those will never take to

vichara and are naturally inclined for the path of Yoga. Bless those

souls. (I am not biased one way or other, am I? <g>)

 

Seriously -

I have personally seen instances where the same Guru might talk to

one disciple exhaustively about meditation and to another disciple

speak exhautively about bhakti or vichara without even mentioning

meditation on the same day!.

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

A distinction needs to be made between Yoga as a technique and

Yoga as a Philosophy. I think it is the latter that the advaitins say

is not adequate enough to satisfy all criteria of philosophy. [ref:

Vedanta : The Culmination of Indian Thought, by R.D.Ranade; 1st ed.

1970; Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.]

 

Another point to be made is that nirvikalpa samadhi is achieved

by vichaara also, and not solely by the technique of ashhtaa~Nga yoga.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <sundar_rajan@h...> wrote:

> Namaste.

> > From my recent studies, I gathered that Shankara wasn't against

the

> school

> > of Yoga as a means to purify the mind. In fact, in the last

verse

> of

> > Aparoskhaanubhuti, Shankara advises the aspirant to practise

Hatha

> Yoga

> > should he is not capable of following the 15 steps he has

> formulated. One

> > thing I noted in that book was Shankara's sharp criticisms on the

> > Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali.

> >

> Interesting. The same Sankara has this to say about Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi in Vivekachudamani,

>

> "Reflection on the Truth is a hundred times superior to hearing.

> Meditation on the truth is a hundred thousand times greater than

> reflection. Nirvikalpa-samadhi is infinitely superior to that

> (Vivekachudamani verse#365)"

>

> So here Sankara is clearly extolling the path of Yoga even above

the

> path of vichara (sravana, manana, nididhihyasana etc)..

>

> > I have also noticed vehement objections to the school of

> > Yoga by Swami Vidyaranya in Panchadashi.

>

> Swami Vidyaranya, the author of Pachadasi was also the 12th Pontiff

> of the Sringeri Mutt(see

> http://users.erols.com/ramakris/sringeri/line.html). The line of

> succession of Sankaracharyas at Sringeri is an unbroken one from

the

> days of Sri Adi Sankaracharya and Suresvara. If there is any

> spiritual place in the world where Sankara's tradition is fullly

> followed to the max, it's a good bet it will be at Sringeri.

>

> There is clear, documented evidence that several Acharyals of the

> Sringeri Mutt not only strongly adhered to the path of Yoga but

> became Supreme, Fully Realized Yogis. Recent examples are the 33rd

> pontiff Sacchidananda Sivabhinava Narasimha Bharati, and 35th

> pontiff, Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha both of whom had stated their

ideal

> to be the famous Yogi and Avadhuta Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra who also

> wrote a great commentary on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

>

> And as posted in msg#9566, other great advaitins such as Sri

> Madhusudana Sarawati also wrote exhaustively about Yoga and loved

the

> path of yoga.

>

> My conclusion from all this is that both the path of vichara and

the

> path of yoga (highest levels of Yoga such as Samadhi are never

> acheived without Supreme Bhakti and abudant Grace of the Guru) are

> entirely valid paths and both lead to the same goal.

>

> What suits one best is to be determined by one's Guru and one's

> natural inclination.

>

> Some people might not be able to sit in meditation for even a few

> minutes (I pity them.. just kidding) but may be able to easily do

> vichara.

>

> On the other hand there may be others who due to purvajanma

samskaras

> and Guru's Grace may be able to get good meditation even without

> actually trying. These people might think - "Why bother with all

this

> endless vichara stuff?. Let us sit down and have some real fun. Let

> us enjoy the joy and peace of meditation." Those will never take to

> vichara and are naturally inclined for the path of Yoga. Bless

those

> souls. (I am not biased one way or other, am I? <g>)

>

> Seriously -

> I have personally seen instances where the same Guru might talk to

> one disciple exhaustively about meditation and to another disciple

> speak exhautively about bhakti or vichara without even mentioning

> meditation on the same day!.

>

>

> regards

> Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundar-ji

 

Thanks for that informative post. I am also caught in a web of so many

intepretations. Swami Tapasyananda (Ramakrishna Order) defines Nirvikalpa

Samadhi as 'free from doubts' and His Holiness Chandrasekhara Bharati in the

commentary on the Vivekachoodamani as 'a state without modifications or

error' (as far as I can remember - do correct me). Therefore, from what I

have learnt, the path of yoga is not detrimental to self-realization but

complimentary. But supposedly only Knowledge can bring you liberation, as

per tradition.

 

Sir, if we intepret Nirvikalpa Samadhi as a state where there is no doubt

about the 'I' and the world being brahman, the verse 365 of the

Vivekachoodamani will still make sense.

 

I am very curious to know if the word Nirvikalpa Samadhi appears in the Yoga

Sutras. Does anyone know of any verse?

 

Kathi

>

> Sundar Rajan [sMTP:sundar_rajan]

> Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:59 AM

> advaitin

> Re: Yoga and Vedanta/Repost

>

> Namaste.

> > From my recent studies, I gathered that Shankara wasn't against the

> school

> > of Yoga as a means to purify the mind. In fact, in the last verse

> of

> > Aparoskhaanubhuti, Shankara advises the aspirant to practise Hatha

> Yoga

> > should he is not capable of following the 15 steps he has

> formulated. One

> > thing I noted in that book was Shankara's sharp criticisms on the

> > Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali.

> >

> Interesting. The same Sankara has this to say about Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi in Vivekachudamani,

>

> "Reflection on the Truth is a hundred times superior to hearing.

> Meditation on the truth is a hundred thousand times greater than

> reflection. Nirvikalpa-samadhi is infinitely superior to that

> (Vivekachudamani verse#365)"

>

> So here Sankara is clearly extolling the path of Yoga even above the

> path of vichara (sravana, manana, nididhihyasana etc)..

>

> > I have also noticed vehement objections to the school of

> > Yoga by Swami Vidyaranya in Panchadashi.

>

> Swami Vidyaranya, the author of Pachadasi was also the 12th Pontiff

> of the Sringeri Mutt(see

> <http://users.erols.com/ramakris/sringeri/line.html).> The line of

> succession of Sankaracharyas at Sringeri is an unbroken one from the

> days of Sri Adi Sankaracharya and Suresvara. If there is any

> spiritual place in the world where Sankara's tradition is fullly

> followed to the max, it's a good bet it will be at Sringeri.

>

> There is clear, documented evidence that several Acharyals of the

> Sringeri Mutt not only strongly adhered to the path of Yoga but

> became Supreme, Fully Realized Yogis. Recent examples are the 33rd

> pontiff Sacchidananda Sivabhinava Narasimha Bharati, and 35th

> pontiff, Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha both of whom had stated their ideal

> to be the famous Yogi and Avadhuta Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra who also

> wrote a great commentary on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

>

> And as posted in msg#9566, other great advaitins such as Sri

> Madhusudana Sarawati also wrote exhaustively about Yoga and loved the

> path of yoga.

>

> My conclusion from all this is that both the path of vichara and the

> path of yoga (highest levels of Yoga such as Samadhi are never

> acheived without Supreme Bhakti and abudant Grace of the Guru) are

> entirely valid paths and both lead to the same goal.

>

> What suits one best is to be determined by one's Guru and one's

> natural inclination.

>

> Some people might not be able to sit in meditation for even a few

> minutes (I pity them.. just kidding) but may be able to easily do

> vichara.

>

> On the other hand there may be others who due to purvajanma samskaras

> and Guru's Grace may be able to get good meditation even without

> actually trying. These people might think - "Why bother with all this

> endless vichara stuff?. Let us sit down and have some real fun. Let

> us enjoy the joy and peace of meditation." Those will never take to

> vichara and are naturally inclined for the path of Yoga. Bless those

> souls. (I am not biased one way or other, am I? <g>)

>

> Seriously -

> I have personally seen instances where the same Guru might talk to

> one disciple exhaustively about meditation and to another disciple

> speak exhautively about bhakti or vichara without even mentioning

> meditation on the same day!.

>

>

> regards

> Sundar Rajan

>

Sponsor

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> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> <http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: <advaitin/messages>

>

>

>

> Terms of Service

> <>.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Patanjali has not used the word 'nirvikalpa' in the suutras.The

many technical words he uses are: sabiija-nirbiija, savitarka-

nirvitarka, sampraj~naata-asampraj~naata.

 

Nirvikalpa seems to be a vedantic term.

 

Surprisingly, even the word 'samaadhi' does not occur in the 10

major upanishads! [The word 'samaahita' is used; Patanjali has also

used 'samaapatti' for samaadhi.]

 

Here is a quote from Sri Ramana's 'Talks' [ #54 - p.59 ]:

"....Even if one is immersed innirvikalpa samadhi for years together,

when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which

he is bound to have. That is the reason for the Acharya emphasising

sahaja samadhi in preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his excellent

work Viveka Chudamani. One should be spontaneous samadhi - that is in

one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment. "

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

 

> I am very curious to know if the word Nirvikalpa Samadhi appears in

the Yoga

> Sutras. Does anyone know of any verse?

>

> Kathi

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji

> A distinction needs to be made between Yoga as a technique

and

> Yoga as a Philosophy. I think it is the latter that the advaitins

say

> is not adequate enough to satisfy all criteria of philosophy. [ref:

> Vedanta : The Culmination of Indian Thought, by R.D.Ranade; 1st ed.

> 1970; Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.]

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. This makes sense. Path of Yoga (Yoga as

a technique) is definitely an alternative path to vichara. In fact,

Lord Krishna extols the path of yoga (meditation) in this Gita verse

(6.46):

 

tapasvibhyo 'dhiko yogi

jnanibhyo 'pi mato 'dhikah

karmibhyas cadhiko yogi

tasmad yogi bhavarjuna

 

A yogi is higher than men of austerity; he is considered higher than

even than men of knowledge. The yogi is also higher than men of

action. Therefore, O Arjuna, do you become a yogi.

 

Just curious : Has Lord Krishna ever said 'Tasmad Vichari bhavarjuna'

(You shall take to the path of vichara)?

>

> Another point to be made is that nirvikalpa samadhi is achieved

> by vichaara also, and not solely by the technique of ashhtaa~Nga

> yoga.

 

Thanks for the info. I am not much familiar with the vichara marga

but know from my very limited personal experience that there is a

sense of joy or pleasantness that you derive from your sadhana

(practice) right from the early stages of meditation. I have read

that this is the case with the path of Bhakti as well.

 

Here is a quote from Talks with Ramana Mahisrishi

http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/talks.htm

which explains the joy in the path of meditation - once you start

tasting the inner joy, you will keep going back.

 

============ Quote ==================================================

 

20th June, 1936

213. Mr. B. C. Das asked why the mind cannot be turned inward in

spite of repeated attempts.

 

M.: It is done by practice and dispassion and that succeeds only

gradually. The mind, having been so long a cow accustomed to graze

stealthily on others' estates, is not easily confined to her stall.

However much her keeper tempts her with luscious grass and fine

fodder, she refuses the first time; then she takes a bit; but her

innate tendency to stray away asserts itself; and she slips away; on

being repeatedly tempted by the owner, she accustoms herself to the

stall; finally even if let loose she would not stray away. Similarly

with the mind. If once it finds its inner happiness it will not

wander outward.

 

================== Quote ends =====================================

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The specific word 'vichaara' has not been used by Sri Krishna,

but is definitely implied in the following use of the word 'buddhi':

 

Gita

2:49

....buddhau sharaNam anvichchha....[in wisdom seek shelter]

 

5:11

kaayena manasaa buddhyaa kevalaiH indriyaiH api .

yoginaH karma kurvanti sa~Nga.n tyaktvaa aatma-shuddhaye ..

[by the body, mind, intellect, by mere senses also, Yogins perform

action for the purification of the self.]

 

6:25

shanaiH shanaiH uparamet buddhyaa dhR^iti-gR^ihiitayaa .

aatma-sa.nsthaM manaH kR^itvaa na ki~nchit api chintayet.h ..

[Little by little let him withdraw, by reason held in firmness;

keeping the mind established in the Self, let him not think of

anything.]

 

12:8

mayi eva manaH aadhatsva mayi buddhi.n niveshaya .

nivasishhyasi mayi eva ataH uurdhva.n na sa.nshayaH ..

[Fix thy mind in Me exclusively, apply thy reason to Me. Thou shalt

no doubt live in Me alone hereafter.]

 

18:30 and 51 re-inforce the above.

 

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <sundar_rajan@h...> wrote:

> Just curious : Has Lord Krishna ever said 'Tasmad Vichari

bhavarjuna'

> (You shall take to the path of vichara)?