what dies and what takes birth ?

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

The question is sometimes asked: "Is it the jIvA or the body

that undergoes birth and death?

 

On the face of it we say "a son is born to me, my close

friend has died, etc. And, of course, there are vedic

rites prescribed for such occasions. So, birth and death

pertain to the jIvA."

 

As against this, shri shankara says in TaittirIya upanishadbhAShya

 

Birth and death really pertain to the body. But, per courtesy,

we say, they pertain to the jIvA. For, if we admit birth and

death pertain to the jIvA, two immediate false conclusions

arise out of that: (i) the jIvA's acts in this birth vanish

without producing their effects, (ii) the jIvA in this birth

reaps the fruits of acts which the jIvA never did. Thus, the

birth ceremony and death ceremony which are ordained (by the

vedA-s) are because of the courtesy accorded to the jIvA by

ascribing birth and death to the jIvA.

 

Chandogya upanishad 6.11.3 says "verily, this body dies, when

deprived of the living self, the living self does not die ...."

This upanishad teaches that it is the body, devoid of jIvA

that really dies and denies jIvA's liability to death. Therefore,

birth and death pertain to the body.

 

BhagavadgItA 2.22 says "just as a man puts on fresh clothes after

discarding worn-out ones, so does the embodied Self, discarding

worn-out bodies, proceed to take up new ones."

 

In the above, we interpret the word "body" to include sthUla

(gross), sUkshma (subtle) and kAraNa (causal) sharIra. Also,

when shri shankara explains above why the jIvA does not go through

birth and death, He is really saying, the jIvA is neither the

enjoyer of the fruits, nor the doer of the actions. That is, the

jIvA in this posting is not the jIvA of individuality, but the

jIvA of understanding jIvo brahmaiva naH paraH. There is no

difference between the two jIvA-s of the last sentence, except

in the former it is mired in avidyA, in the other, it is embodiment

of jnAnam.

 

I would be most grateful for comments/corrections.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

Namaste Gummulurji:

 

As always, you have raised an interesting question regarding the myth

of human life. What you have addressed here is an integral part

focusing on the mystics of ultimate reality. Every notion that we

introduce to answer a question produces a new question for which we

need additional notions explanations. This cycle goes on!

 

Let me restate your question addressing the myth of human

life: "Is it the jIvA or the body that undergoes birth and death?."

Let me again follow your steps and state important verses 20 and 22 of

chapter 2 from Gita. Dr. Radhakrishnan in his commentary ((Dr.

Radhakrishnan's translation in his book on Bhagavadgita, page 107)

distinguishes between SELF (Brahman) and self (embodied soul). Verse

20 describes the nature of SELF and verse 22 outlines how the embodied

soul undergoes the cycle of birth and death.

 

Gita Chapter 2, verse 20

 

na jayate mriyate vA kadAcin

nA yam bhuutvA bhavitA vA na bhuyah

ajo nityah sasvato yam purAno

na hanyate hanyamAne sarire

He is never born, nor does He die at any time, nor having (once) come

to be will He again cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, permanent and

primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

 

Gita Chapter 2, verse 22

 

vAsAmsi jirnAmi yathA vihAya

navAni grhnAti naro `parAni

tathA sarirAni vihAya jirnAny

anyAni samyAti navAni dehi

Just as person casts of worn-out garments and puts on others that are

new, even so does the embodied soul casts off worn-out bodies and take

on others that are new.

 

Finally, Radhakrishnan's quotation form Emerson beautifully summarizes

the myth of life:

 

"If the red slayer thinks he slays,

or if the slain think he is slain,

They know better not well the subtle ways

I keep and pass and turn again."

 

The above quotation is a restatement of the well known Vedic Truth:

"There is no beginning and there will be no end."

 

If we say anything more and if we try to explain more, we are more

likely to be confused than before! The only person who know the

answers to all our questions is the Brahman! This is also part of the

Myth!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran