Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 there was a very interesting question by Mr, Gurumurthy, as to whether it is the body or the jive and is born and dies. Ans:- It is the jiva the sentient being (not the body which is jada or insentient) that is born and dies. The reference to body as born and dead is due to entanglement, which the revered Commentator mentions as Gounatma. Please refer Brahma Sutra Bhashya 1-1-4 conclusion, where he quotes 3 slokas. S. Venkata Subramanian Venkat_advaita ___ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 On 9 Jun 2001, venkata subramanian wrote: > there was a very interesting question by Mr, Gurumurthy, as > to whether it is the body or the jive and is born and dies. > > Ans:- It is the jiva the sentient being (not the body which > is jada or insentient) that is born and dies. The reference > to body as born and dead is due to entanglement, which the > revered Commentator mentions as Gounatma. Please refer Brahma > Sutra Bhashya 1-1-4 conclusion, where he quotes 3 slokas. > > S. Venkata Subramanian > Venkat_advaita > namaste shri Venkata Subramanianji, I cannot see that the jIvA, the sentient is the one that is born and dies. It must be a mis-statement from you of shri shankara's logic. I do not have the original BrahmasUtrAbhAShya with me, but only the english translation by swami Gambhirananda, and also have access to swami Krishnanandaji's discussions from the Divine Life Society. I wonder if you can post shri shankara's statements that the jIvA, the sentient is the one that undergoes birth and death (if that is what He said in BSB 1.1.4) and the complete pUrvapaksha and the vedAntin arguments. We recently had posting on BSB 1.1.4 from shri Sadanandaji and I wonder if he can clarify this. The thing that undergoes ShadbhAvavikAra is the body and that is the one that undergoes birth and death. How can the sentient jIvA (here I equate jIvA to brahman as per jivo brahmaiva naH paraH) die? It is true that the jIvA in ignorance may *think* that he/she is dying and is getting born, but that is only ignorance. Regards Gummuluru Murthy -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Humble pranams Yes I agree Gummuluruji's fact that the jive nither born nor dies. It is only the body which is created through the five elements.The gross body undegoes the process of birth and death. The ignorance individual soul or jive indentify its self with the gross body and take form according its past karma. The jive is actually non other than Brahmam itself. Its is like a ether inside the pot and the ether outside the pot. When the pot brake both the ether become identical. So when the Brahmam is omnipresent in three time period how can the jive which is the non other the menifestation of Brahmam itself can be born and die again and again. Below is the statement taken from Brahma Sutras( by Swami Sivananda Founder, The Divine Life Society Sivananda Ashram, Rishikesh, India) which could give more clearity on this topic. CHAPTER IV PHALA ADHYAYA, SECTION 1 ; Atmatvopasanadhikaranam: Topic 2 A doubt arises whether Brahman is to be comprehended by the Jiva or the individual soul as identical with it or separate from it. The opponent maintains that Brahman is to be comprehended as different from the individual soul owing to their essential difference, because the individual soul is subject to pain, sorrow and misery, while the other is not. The present Sutra refutes the view that Brahman is to be comprehended as identical with one's self. The individual is essentially Brahman only. The Jivahood is due to the limiting adjunct, the internal organ or Antahkarana. The Jivahood is illusory. The Jiva is in reality an embodiment of bliss. It experiences pain and misery on account of the limiting adjunct, Antahkarana. The Jabalas acknowledge it "I am indeed Thou, O Lord, and Thou art indeed myself." Other scriptural texts also say the same thing, "I am Brahman: Aham Brahma Asmi" (Bri. Up. I.4.10). "Thy self is this which is within all" (Bri. Up. III.4.1). "He is thy self, the ruler within, the immortal" (Bri. Up. III.7.3). "That is the True, that is the Self, That thou art" (Chh. Up. VI.8.7). Hari om Tat Sat. advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > > On 9 Jun 2001, venkata subramanian wrote: > > > there was a very interesting question by Mr, Gurumurthy, as > > to whether it is the body or the jive and is born and dies. > > > > Ans:- It is the jiva the sentient being (not the body which > > is jada or insentient) that is born and dies. The reference > > to body as born and dead is due to entanglement, which the > > revered Commentator mentions as Gounatma. Please refer Brahma > > Sutra Bhashya 1-1-4 conclusion, where he quotes 3 slokas. > > > > S. Venkata Subramanian > > Venkat_advaita@r... > > > > namaste shri Venkata Subramanianji, > > I cannot see that the jIvA, the sentient is the one that is > born and dies. It must be a mis-statement from you of shri > shankara's logic. I do not have the original BrahmasUtrAbhAShya > with me, but only the english translation by swami Gambhirananda, > and also have access to swami Krishnanandaji's discussions from > the Divine Life Society. I wonder if you can post shri shankara's > statements that the jIvA, the sentient is the one that undergoes > birth and death (if that is what He said in BSB 1.1.4) and the > complete pUrvapaksha and the vedAntin arguments. We recently > had posting on BSB 1.1.4 from shri Sadanandaji and I wonder if > he can clarify this. > > The thing that undergoes ShadbhAvavikAra is the body and that is > the one that undergoes birth and death. How can the sentient jIvA > (here I equate jIvA to brahman as per jivo brahmaiva naH paraH) > die? > > It is true that the jIvA in ignorance may *think* that he/she > is dying and is getting born, but that is only ignorance. > > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Namaste Kalaimalarji: Thanks for bringing the insights of Swami Sivanandaji with the clarifications. Welcome again to the list and I hope to see your active participation. Let me try to explain the distinction between 'jiva' and 'Brahman' using the space analogy: The space (Brahman) is always there and the house-space (jiva) emerges with the building of the house (body). The house space is limited where as space is unlimited and the existence of space is irrespective of the house! The illusory house gives the appearance that the house-space is limited and separate from the space! Jiva also appears separate from the Brahman because of the illusory body-mind-intellect. The demolition and construction of the houses continue with no begining and no end and this is the essence of Advaita Philosophy. warmest regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.