Objects and the deep-sleep state

[Guest guest]

Namaste all,

 

Chiming in on this thread of objects and deep sleep.

 

The question about the existence of objects in deep sleep sort of presumes

that they exist in the waking state. This leads to some odd conclusions.

If it makes sense to speak of the existence/nonexistence of objects at all,

then there are 4 logical possibilities:

 

1. Objects exist both in the waking state and in deep sleep. (+ +)

2. Objects exist in the waking state and *not* in deep sleep. (+ -)

3. Objects do not exist in the waking state, but they do exist in deep

sleep. (- +)

4. Objects do not exist either in the waking state, or in deep sleep. (- -)

 

 

(1) (+ +) is the outlook of most people. But during deep sleep there is no

evidence for the existence of objects. No evidence against their existence

either. Any evidence comes earlier or later, as a thought and a claim made

during the waking state.

 

(2) (+ -) if this is true, then this implies either that (i) objects pop in

and out of existence as I wake up and go to sleep. What about someone else

awake looking at the object while I'm asleep? Or maybe (ii), as claimed in

Tibetan Buddhism, that when even one person or deva is awake, then objects

exist. But when everyone all together goes to sleep, objects *then*

disappear.

 

(3) (- +) seems not to be considered seriously, since if objects exist at

all, they'll surely exist in the waking state.

 

(4) (- -) Echoing something Sadananda said before, *do* objects exist even

in the waking state? It is often claimed that they do, based on the

evidence of thoughts and perceptions. These thoughts and perceptions seem

to point outside themselves, and indicate an existence of things outside

themselves. Is this evidence sufficient to grant the claim of existence?

No, for several reasons.

 

(i) In the total absence of teacup-thoughts and teacup-perceptions, the

teacup cannot be said to exist. There has never been any evidence

of a separate teacup, separate from teacup-thoughts and

teacup-perceptions. These thoughts and perceptions are all we

have to support the claim of the existence of the teacup.

Therefore it cannot be defended that the thoughts and perceptions

"indicate" or "point to" or "represent" a teacup outside themselves.

 

(ii) Thoughts and perceptions, even the waking/drea/deep sleep states

are *themselves* objects. If the existence of objects is under

scrutiny, then these more subtle objects will eventually come

under scrutiny as well. Compared to these, the teacup is trivial!

 

(iii) There has never been any evidence for the existence of any object,

at any time, in any state, apart from consciousness as illuminator.

In fact, any attempt at a proof to the contrary would instead just

re-confirm this very point. Why? Because that proof to the contrary,

along with its presumed objects, would themselves arise within the

illumination of consiousness. They cannot be proved to exist apart

from Consciousness.

 

Consciousness, while not an object, is always the only "evidence."

 

Hari OM!

 

--Greg