Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear sri gurumurthi ji, namaste. apropos to our discussion, kindly note that birth and death, i have mentioned, pertain to the individual soul called the Jiva and not the ATMAN. `Birth' and `death' mean respectively the entry into and the exit out of a body by JIVA. Death is not distruction as generally understood, resulting in a doubt that how can the eternal soul die etc. hence it is the body. it means the exit of the Jiva from the body. Thus, birth, death, joy, sorrow, joy, etc. etc. all pertain to the JIVATMAN for he is the sentient priciple, not to body which is an insentient object. I will die,:- who says this? not the body but the Jiva; the sentient. this extends even upto the concept of TRANSMIGRATION OF SOULS as described in the Chandogya and other Upanishads including the Brahma Sutras. The series of births ( ENTRY INTO BODIES) and deaths (exit therefrom) can pertain ONLY to the JIVATMAN the sentient principle and NEVER to the body, for, it is not transmigration of bodies. it is only this transmigrating soul suffering births and deaths, the purva mimaskas consider as the qualified for Dharma etc. refer isa intro. In order to show that the nature of Atman as taught in the Upanishads is different from this, the Acharya names them as Mukhyatman the latter, and Gounatman the former. This is what i have referred to by quoting Br.Su.1-1-4 end where He quotes 3 verses from a mysterious traditional source. The reference of Gounatman is the trasmigrating soul alias Jivatman who is considered by all as born again and again. please refer to Br.Su. II - iii - 16 (10 th adhikarana ) where the Revered Acharya shows how the Shastra Upadesa cleanses even this dort. How he rescinds the commonfolk belief that birth and death are of the individual soul. The soul is not born and it does not die. But, is so considered by ignorance. carefully note that he explains that birth and death are associate terms with reference to body and not of the individual soul. soul is not born and does not perish, but birth and death into and from a body are ignorantly considered as Atman's. The Atman pertaining to whom it is so ignorantly considered as - is the Gounatman the jiva. The Same Jiva on knowing his nature as pure, rests in His Nature as Atman - Mukya. Thus there is no contradiction. Only when it knows it as the Real Atman, there is no birth and death problem etc. as they are all irrelevant. Extending this, your another good question is also answered. Why do not we perceive any object in deep sleep? The Acharya answers at Brihadaranyaka Bhashya very clearly that it is Because THERE IS NOTHING TO BE PERCEIVED. There is no objecthood at all in deep sleep as the very antahkarana which is the cause of objecthood is completely absent in deepsleep. Hence, the soul is in its true nature (as Mukyatman). In this same sense the reference to Sati Sampadyate na Viduhu in Chandogya gets answered. In waking and dream, the gouna and mitya atman are conceived, hence objecthood and its notions respectively. but in deepsleep, these two are absent as there is no antahkarana. hence only the atman in its true sense as Mukyatman is present, which is the ever present witness. i hope you get my point. I cannot type the whole purvapaksha and siddanta from 1-1-4 as you have required, as it will be tooo lengthy and also unnecessary. the 3 verses are enough for our point here. please refer to page 44 & 45 of Sw.Gamhirananda where the translation of the said portion is available (page quoted from 1993 edition). S. Venkata Subramanian Venkat_advaita ___ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 On 14 Jun 2001, venkata subramanian wrote: > Dear sri gurumurthi ji, namaste. > > apropos to our discussion, kindly note that birth and death, i have mentioned, pertain to the individual soul called the Jiva and not the ATMAN. `Birth' and `death' mean respectively the entry into and the exit out of a body by JIVA. Death is not distruction as generally understood, resulting in a doubt that how can the eternal soul die etc. hence it is the body. it means the exit of the Jiva from the body. Thus, birth, death, joy, sorrow, joy, etc. etc. all pertain to the JIVATMAN for he is the sentient priciple, not to body which is an insentient object. I will die,:- who says this? not the body but the Jiva; the sentient. > > this extends even upto the concept of TRANSMIGRATION OF SOULS as described in the Chandogya and other Upanishads including the Brahma Sutras. The series of births ( ENTRY INTO BODIES) and deaths (exit therefrom) can pertain ONLY to the JIVATMAN the sentient principle and NEVER to the body, for, it is not transmigration of bodies. it is only this transmigrating soul suffering births and deaths, the purva mimaskas consider as the qualified for Dharma etc. refer isa intro. > > In order to show that the nature of Atman as taught in the Upanishads is different from this, the Acharya names them as Mukhyatman the latter, and Gounatman the former. > This is what i have referred to by quoting Br.Su.1-1-4 end where He quotes 3 verses from a mysterious traditional source. The reference of Gounatman is the trasmigrating soul alias Jivatman who is considered by all as born again and again. please refer to Br.Su. II - iii - 16 (10 th adhikarana ) where the Revered Acharya shows how the Shastra Upadesa cleanses even this dort. How he rescinds the commonfolk belief that birth and death are of the individual soul. The soul is not born and it does not die. But, is so considered by ignorance. carefully note that he explains that birth and death are associate terms with reference to body and not of the individual soul. soul is not born and does not perish, but birth and death into and from a body are ignorantly considered as Atman's. The Atman pertaining to whom it is so ignorantly considered as - is the Gounatman the jiva. The Same Jiva on knowing his nature as pure, rests in His Nature as Atman - Mukya. > > Thus there is no contradiction. > > Only when it knows it as the Real Atman, there is no birth and death problem etc. as they are all irrelevant. > > Extending this, your another good question is also answered. Why do not we perceive any object in deep sleep? The Acharya answers at Brihadaranyaka Bhashya very clearly that it is Because THERE IS NOTHING TO BE PERCEIVED. There is no objecthood at all in deep sleep as the very antahkarana which is the cause of objecthood is completely absent in deepsleep. Hence, the soul is in its true nature (as Mukyatman). In this same sense the reference to Sati Sampadyate na Viduhu in Chandogya gets answered. > > In waking and dream, the gouna and mitya atman are conceived, hence objecthood and its notions respectively. but in deepsleep, these two are absent as there is no antahkarana. hence only the atman in its true sense as Mukyatman is present, which is the ever present witness. > > i hope you get my point. I cannot type the whole purvapaksha and siddanta from 1-1-4 as you have required, as it will be tooo lengthy and also unnecessary. the 3 verses are enough for our point here. please refer to page 44 & 45 of Sw.Gamhirananda where the translation of the said portion is available (page quoted from 1993 edition). > > S. Venkata Subramanian > Venkat_advaita > namaste shri Subramanian-ji, Thanks very much for your elaboration on the death and birth vis-a-vis body and jIvA from BSB 1..1.4. It confirms my understanding of the topic as well. Thanks for the reference to BrihadAraNyakabhAShya on the other topic of absence of objects in deep-sleep. Where precisely in Br. U. bhAShya did shri shankara refer to this topic? Can you give reference to the proper mantra? Thanks again. p.s. It would be useful to put a proper title in the subject matter of the thread rather than referring to as Digest Number XXX. That would greatly help search of the archives in future under the subject phrases. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Very clear and interesting summary of the matter, Greg. You seem to opt for logical possibility 4 : "Objects do not exist either in the waking state, or in deep sleep. (- -)" As the reason you give: "There has never been any evidence for the existence of any object, at any time, in any state, apart from consciousness". I concur with you on this. However, this gives rise to some questions: 1) If objects do not exist apart from consciousness, it follows that tea-cup thoughts and tea-cup perceptions are not caused by tea-cups and are not representations of tea-cups (because in fact there are no tea-cups). What is then the origin of our tea-cup thoughts and perceptions? 2) If our tea-cup thoughts are not originated by tea-cups, but are mere ideas in our minds, how is it that we all have the same ideas about tea-cups? Surely such coincidence points to a common origin, doesn't it? Which? In other words, if there is no fundamental difference between deep-sleep and waking state (in relation to the existence of the outside world), then we can very well say that we are dreaming all the time, and that the the world is a dream. But how is it that we are all dreaming about the same world? If the sun, the moon, etc are not really out there, but only exist in our minds, how is it that all of us dream of the same world, with a sun, a moon, etc? 3) If, for lack of evidence, we cease to believe in the existence of an outside world, the same argument applies against the existence of other individuals apart from myself. Doesn't this lead us (or rather "me") towards sollipsism? Really, I have absolutely no evidence of the existence of anything or anybody but me. So, together with the bodies, one should discard the other minds, and the other jivas. What proof is there that there is more than only one jiva? I hope you'll take the trouble to answer these questions. Thanks. Miguel-Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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